How are men and women different?

[Lucifer]

What was I gonna say?

I think what I said above goes a much longer way at explaining the stereotype that women desire uuuh affection in a realtionship and men only desire sex.

It's not that it's that its that, and individual man and an individual may be wanting either or. But the divergence in behavior is because they see sex and are aroused differently. Like right?

 

[Satya]

Women do not know what it's like to have an erection.

Developmentally speaking, the clitoris is virtually the same as the head of the penis. Women thus have "erections" every time their clitoris is engorged as is typical during sexual arousal.

Men can never truly understand what periods are like.

Studies have indicated that many men undergo a "PMS cycle" similar to that of women's.

But maybe it all has to do with energy.

It has to do with hormones, culture, and environment.

Maybe it was unconsciously taught, but I don't know.

Yes, children are socialized to gender roles from the moment they are born.

 

[Satya]

It's not that it's that its that, and individual man and an individual may be wanting either or. But the divergence in behavior is because they see sex and are aroused differently. Like right?

As I said before...

Females are generally more selective in who they mate with because they need a reliable protector and provider and males often compete with one another for the best females and thus need to be more aggressive. That is generally the sum of human gender role differences. However, that is more largely contingent on environmental factors than on biological factors. In places with good climates, a large food and clean water supply, and no major dangers, females will be far more liberal with who they mate with and males will be far less competitive as a result.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Of course they can't be a different sex. Sex is defined as chromosomes. XX and XY will never change. We are talking about gender here.

I know, but while the topic of parental substitution was up, I wanted to throw in something pertaining to the actual sex of the parents, distinct from gender roles. My impression of my early impressions of my parents was more to do with "one being a boy and the other a girl" than about one being nurturing and the other being protective.

 

[Satya]

I know, but while the topic of parental substitution was up, I wanted to throw in something pertaining to the actual sex of the parents, distinct from gender roles. My impression of my early impressions of my parents was more to do with "one being a boy and the other a girl" than about one being nurturing and the other being protective.

What does that have to do with parental substitution? Are you saying what makes a good father is that he is male and what makes a good mother is that she is female? I always had the conception that good fathers were those that could protect and provide for their families and that good mothers were those who were nurturing, or in other words, the gender roles associated with parenting.

Why can't a man be just as good a mother as a woman and why can't a woman be just as good a father as a man?

 

[Flavus Aquila]

No arguement about good fathers and mothers. But even if my mother and father had been bad parents (which they weren't) I doubt I would have noticed until I was an adult. (I say that because I remember becoming aware that my parents were actually pretty good ones after a friend told me about his parents, who were pretty bad). What most struck me was that they were physically different and I was drawn to mom more for emotional security and to dad more for physical activity because of how they are built.

 

[Satya]

No arguement about good fathers and mothers. But even if my mother and father had been bad parents (which they weren't) I doubt I would have noticed until I was an adult. (I say that because I remember becoming aware that my parents were actually pretty good ones after a friend told me about his parents, who were pretty bad). What most struck me was that they were physically different and I was drawn to mom more for emotional security and to dad more for physical activity because of how they are built.

Or that is the kind of activity they chose to take part with you due to how they were socialized and so you learned to be drawn to them in that fashion and over the course of your life have come to assume that it was because of "how they were built" and not because of your own socialization. In more egalitarian parts of society, children can often be found finding emotional security with their fathers and doing physical activities with their mothers. Hence there is no evidence to suggest that children are instinctively drawn to their parents by how they are built, but there is evidence to suggest that they are drawn to their parents by how their parents socialize them. Your situation just suggests to me that you grew up in a patriarchal family.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

But mom was cuddly and dad was robust - physically.

 

[alcyone]

Funny, my dad was also robust, but I felt more comforted by him than my mom. My Dad used to cuddle with us all the time. Mom was never the cuddly type. In fact, I don't have any childhood memories of being held by her.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Alcyone, you have just highlighted something I was trying to say, but couldn't get the thought focused enough!

Despite whatever gender construct the parents might be subject to, children seem consistently to be drawn more to the parent of opposite physical sex. There may be isolated exceptions, but regardless of the gender construct (patriarchal, or matriarchal, or egalitarian), children are drawn to the oppositely sexed parent.

Even if children learn to fit into a 'gender construct' through observing the construct of their parents, they seem always to adopt that of the same sexed parent; and seem always drawn to the parent of opposite gender.

If one were to try to disrupt this phenomenon, it would require the deliberate 'engendering' of opposite gender characteristics to a particular sex in each successive generation. (In english - boys would have to be raised girly in one generation and boyish in the next). Even if this had the effect of directing the affection of male children to their fathers and that of female children to their mothers, the only thing proved would be that to achieve this a highly artificial intervention would be required.

Taking up Okham's razor, I will simply dump this complex gender-construct theory and say that the difference in sex between males and females is obvious even to infants, as is the complimentarity of the sexes (male children are drawn to female parents....). Given the simplicity of infant minds, together with their ability to identify the sexes at an early age points to the sheer significance of the two sexes (in physical terms), or characteristics directly related to physical differences, to human development.

Gender constructs, which claim that males can substitute for females and vice-versa in parental roles ignore the most fundamental and significant difference between the sexes - the physical difference. Given that it appears that the physical difference of the sexes is most significant to the development of an infant (not whether the father or mother adopt conventional or unconventional gender roles), one must say that besides the actual physical difference between the sexes (and those characteristics directly consequent upon this physical difference), there are no significant differences between men and women.

 

[arbygil]

Developmentally speaking, the clitoris is virtually the same as the head of the penis. Women thus have "erections" every time their clitoris is engorged as is typical during sexual arousal.

Interesting...man, I feel sorry for men, then...I'm surprised you aren't moaning each time you have an erection!

Studies have indicated that many men undergo a "PMS cycle" similar to that of women's.

I knew it! I thought so. But at least you don't have to go hunting for masculine hygiene products. That would be icky. Heh. [TMI WARNING!!!]: A pad for the penis--?

It has to do with hormones, culture, and environment.

I'd agree that it's innate, but it's such a part of the make up of who we are. Hormones make up human development. We *are* women. You *are* men. So we will act differently because our hormones dictate it. Unless we take hormones to change our gender.

Yes, children are socialized to gender roles from the moment they are born.

What about children raised by non-humans? I think those studies are fascinating as well.

 

[Satya]

Despite whatever gender construct the parents might be subject to, children seem consistently to be drawn more to the parent of opposite physical sex. There may be isolated exceptions, but regardless of the gender construct (patriarchal, or matriarchal, or egalitarian), children are drawn to the oppositely sexed parent.

Do you actually have any evidence to support this assertion or is it just your opinion?

Gender constructs, which claim that males can substitute for females and vice-versa in parental roles ignore the most fundamental and significant difference between the sexes - the physical difference. Given that it appears that the physical difference of the sexes is most significant to the development of an infant (not whether the father or mother adopt conventional or unconventional gender roles), one must say that besides the actual physical difference between the sexes (and those characteristics directly consequent upon this physical difference), there are no significant differences between men and women.

So you are arguing that the most important aspect of being a father is being male and the most important aspect of being a mother is being female. If you wish to believe that then fine, but how the parents actually raise the kids is definitely more important than their sex.

Also, about 20 years of studies of same sex families have demonstrated that they raise kids no better or worse than heterosexual parents, so the empirical evidence does not support your theory. How do you explain this?

http://www.ru.edu/faculty/rboughner/courses/Alternative activities/Children of gays.pdf

 

[alcyone]

I don't have any actualy scientific evidence to go on.

But I don't think i can wholeheartedly agree with you FA.

In my family (spouse and kids), Three of the kids; my daughter, first and second sons. Have all preferred me, especially my second son. He didn't want anything to do with anyone except me for a long long long time. I spent the first three weeks after he was born with him sleeping on my chest because he wouldn't remain asleep any other way.

Both as infants and as they have gotten older I tend to be the one they come to first with problems, wants, questions etc.

My youngest son however, he's Daddy's boy to the core. When he was an infant I was good for food only, after he was full he'd prefer to be held, comforted, rocked, carried, burped, entertained by Dad. He didn't like me touching, hugging, sitting next to or kissing 'his Dad'. The extreme dicotomy has faded somewhat. But I am fourth on his preference list. Dad being first, Cam (second son, third kid), Jackie (the oldest) then Me being his order of preferred companions. These days, I'm acceptable when Dad isn't around, in fact he's been called a momma's boy by those who have never seen his change-about attitude when he's with his dad.

I think parental preference has more to do with a childs innate personality than anything else.

 

[Satya]

Interesting...man, I feel sorry for men, then...I'm surprised you aren't moaning each time you have an erection!

Foreskin protects a lot of men, and desensitization eliminates the problem for circumcised men. If you study embryo development then you would actually find that the penis and vagina come from the same fetal organ, but simply develop differently as the fetus is exposed to hormones from the mother.

I knew it! I thought so. But at least you don't have to go hunting for masculine hygiene products. That would be icky. Heh. [TMI WARNING!!!]: A pad for the penis--?

[TMI Back at Ya!!!] Some gay men who bottom for well endowed partners do occasionally have to wear pads.

I'd agree that it's innate, but it's such a part of the make up of who we are. Hormones make up human development. We *are* women. You *are* men. So we will act differently because our hormones dictate it. Unless we take hormones to change our gender.

The birth order studies have lead scientists to wonder if hormones are the cause of different sexual orientations and transsexualism.

What about children raised by non-humans? I think those studies are fascinating as well.

Feral children? They suffer horrific losses in development. Fascinating but terribly sad.

 

[gloomy-optimist]

Hey, don't make me break out Freudian theory up in here.

But yes, there are theories that a child undergoes periods where they are drawn to the same sex or different sex parent respectively.

Male and female differ naturally due to their physical needs. A woman's body has different hormones than a man's body, and she undergoes different responses to mating due to her role in that activity. A woman physically has to be prepared to give birth to and nurture a child.

A man differs from a woman in that he is built more to provide. He has more muscle mass and has hormones that cause him to be more aggressive.


However, many, MANY gender constructs are cultural. Many stem from practical bases -- when we lived nomadically, and even in the places with smaller, undeveloped communities, the women tend to stay back while the men hunted because women aren't as apt in that area. It is more practical to have that portion of the group stay back and maintain the domestic stuff.

Anymore, that is not a needed social system. The idea of women as "frail" or "sweet" is not supported, but rather just instilled. Same with the idea of men as having little emotion or being overly aggressive. A girl doesn't naturally like pink and frills and dolls more, and a boy doesn't naturally like blue and dirt and trucks more. That's what they're taught they should like. In fact, it's even questionable whether or not women have a better language center naturally, or whether it's because as children, parents are more likely to use a wider variety of words to a girl (a girl a parent might ask, "Are you frustrated?" or "You seem cheerful" and other varied words, whereas to a boy they might just leave it at, "Are you mad?" or "You're happy" because they're expected to be more physically oriented).


Conclusion: Men and women do have different instincts towards role, but gender role by culture is predominately fabricated.