How does your Ni (introverted intuition) work?

[Goatman455]

Let me put this in language you can understand, I will try your method of debating:

Too bad you're wrong. Actually my version is correct, let me explain.

"Very simply. It starts with internal thought process then radiates outward (introverted), following a course set by emotion (Feeling)."

The feeling does not radiate outward, for purposes of definition introverted processes flow inward not outward.


Whoops, your bad


"Actually it does, because no one does it that way. That's not how Fi works. Your opinion doesn't change the fabric of reality or science."


HAHAHA, the reality or science behind visions Jung had and is translating to reality.

Nope, again, arrogance on your part. This isn't hard science, it is psychology.


"I'm proving your points wrong, and trying to help you understand how these theories and principles work. Clearly you have interest in them, or else you would not have opinions."

I feel the same way about you, so who is right?


"No, I'm calling black and white things black and white. When these things are static and isolated, they are very clearly polarized. In a dynamic environment in which they interact, they appear to be gray because they blend."

YOU call them static and isolated, yet again just because YOU claim something DOES NOT mean it is right. My point is, if they do blend, no one person can truly separately them in the way you have and then make comments on them separately.

It's like a soup. The soup has component parts, but when combined the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.

Reading the ingredients is a very different experience from eating the soup.

Again, you are just being too black and white and arrogant, but it's ok, I can bust up your points all day.


"I've heard this statement from Fi dominant people before. I apologize if my manner of presentation is offensive to you. It is not meant to be. I'm simply trying to concisely correct and educate you on something you appear to have interest in."

Well, I guess good thing I am not Fi dominant. It isn't about politeness here, it is about saying things in a way that allows others their viewpoints while also expressing your own. Something you have chosen not to do, and I am following suit in this post.

WRONG AGAIN!

"What I am saying is correct. There is always room for innovation and adaptation in the scientific process. However, opinion and conjecture cannot undo progress nor alter reality, only perception and perspective."

Not it's not. This stuff has not been proven or dis proven, have you ever taken a psychology course because these concepts are 101 seriously.


"I wasn't trying to have you, just correct and refine what you added to this thread, to avoid confusion for the other forum members on the subject of Ni, which is the subject of this thread."

Whoops, guess you failed at that one. Don't worry though, give my point some credence and you will find that you will develop a deeper understanding of the issue.

Continue to deny my point of view and you will find yourself stuck in the very same way of thinking for as long as it takes you to realize the error of your ways.

Open your mind please.

 

[Goatman455]

I am sorry if that came across a bit harsh, perhaps we should keep this conversation to PM, I don't want to get out of hand and have our argument influence others negatively.


Sorry if we made anyone uncomfortable.

 

[VH]

I am sorry if that came across a bit harsh, perhaps we should keep this conversation to PM, I don't want to get out of hand and have our argument influence others negatively.

Sorry if we made anyone uncomfortable.

I think it is a good example of how Goatman's Ne is very concerned with possibilities, constantly expounding upon more possibilities, while my Ni keeps trying to funnel everything into singular truths, each time trying to reign everything back into one black and white answer.

Therefore, this is actually appropriate to the subject of this thread.

A great way to illustrate a principle or definition is with actual examples.

 

[Goatman455]

I think it is a good example of how Goatman's Ne is very concerned with possibilities, constantly expounding upon more possibilities, while my Ni keeps trying to funnel everything into singular truths, each time trying to reign everything back into one black and white answer.

Therefore, this is actually appropriate to the subject of this thread.

A great way to illustrate a principle or definition is with actual examples.

I think it is a better example of two E's being closed minded assholes

I guess we will keep posting here? Hopefully no one minds.


"Ni keeps trying to funnel everything into singular truths, each time trying to reign everything back into one black and white answer."

Do other INFJs agree that you like to funnel things into one black and white answer. Again, this doesn't sound like Ni to me. I would be interested to see what INFJs think about putting things in black and white. All the INFJs I have seen tend not to do this. This sounds more E to me than I.

I really think you are ENFJ. This is very EJ sounding. That is not meant to be an insult btw.

 

[TenorKite]

What are you trying to "resolve" here? Sounds like you are being very closed minded on the topic. Knee Jerk reactions like the one you just made are more a function of Fe than Fi.

Your points seem to contradict themselves. How can an introverted function lead to a knee jerk response?

If you have a primary judging function, then very easily.

In order from least to most subconscious, the introverted functions:

Si is conscious memory and association with left brained defining principles.
Ti is conscious logic and reasoning with right brained abstraction.
Fi is conscious emotion with subconscious emotional association.
Ni is subconscious perception with subconscious pattern recognition.

Fi is conscious emotion, why? I don't see it that way.

Fe is actually more unconscious than Fi. It has been associated with the super-ego. Meaning that everyone uses it to try go 'fit in.' If you've ever gone against your better judgment to fit into a group, than you're unconsciously using Fe. For INFJs the trick is actually learning to use Fe consciously to build rapport, rather than using it in a defensive, subconscious manner (which, I think, unhealthy INFJs are prone to do).

Wrong. Feelings come from emotions, not the unconscious nor the subconscious. The ability to verbalize or not verbalize a cognition is only proof of right or left hemisphere dominance, not subconconscious operation. Fi is strongly rooted in the right side of the brain consciously, while associated with subconscious reference to memory.

And these emotions can come from the subconscious brain. Just because you don't do it that way, doesn't mean someone else doesn't.

I think you're confusing 'Feeling' with emotion. From what I understand of Jung, Feeling is a relative judgment. It can be based on your own emotions (Fi) or based on what you perceive as the motives of the group (Fe). Either way it's a subjective judgment that is based on emotions rather than being emotions themselves.

I think we should be very careful when making absolute statements about things being undefinable, which does mislead people, contributes to confusion, and does nothing to resolve the matters at hand.

Again this sounds good (as far as trying to discredit what I am saying) yet I have never said we shouldn't talk about things.

There is a clear contradiction in attempting to define the undefinable. You are calling gray things black and white, and this just isn't right.

It isn't what you are saying, it is how you are saying it.

I can't really say the world is definable, but you must set boundaries and define some things in order to bring an other's attention to it. Othewise communication is impossible. But again, you must realize when to let those boundaries go. Describe something as long as it's needed to get your point across, then let it go. Nothing is static.

 

[TenorKite]

I think it is a better example of two E's being closed minded assholes

I guess we will keep posting here? Hopefully no one minds.

Ni keeps trying to funnel everything into singular truths, each time trying to reign everything back into one black and white answer.

Do other INFJs agree that you like to funnel things into one black and white answer. Again, this doesn't sound like Ni to me. I would be interested to see what INFJs think about putting things in black and white. All the INFJs I have seen tend not to do this. This sounds more E to me than I.

Hmm... I can't really say it's all about funneling everything into singular truths, but more about reconciling paradoxes. If you don't mind, I'll just go completely nuts right now. As long as the universe exists, paradoxes will abound. Reconciling them will allow everything to continue. It will allow experience to continue building upon itself. Otherwise you end up with a static situation... heaven or hell (both the same), for eternity. Nothing changes, no one learns anything. Both end up tortuous eventually.

 

[Tamagochi]

Do other INFJs agree that you like to funnel things into one black and white answer. Again, this doesn't sound like Ni to me. I would be interested to see what INFJs think about putting things in black and white. All the INFJs I have seen tend not to do this. This sounds more E to me than I.

Hmm that's a bit complicated to answer. On one side I do like things decided (it probably comes from J part) - especially for things that are measurable and comprehensive. On the other side I don't like black and white proclamations when it comes to feelings or when the subject is not well defined itself (like MBTI theory).

And I often get remarks from people "why can't you give me a straight yes/no answer" - I guess it comes from sensors

I really think you are ENFJ. This is very EJ sounding. That is not meant to be an insult btw.

LOL you should see Von Hase's "I'm starting to think I'm ENFJ thread".

 

[VH]

LOL you should see Von Hase's "I'm starting to think I'm ENFJ thread".

I'm starting to think I might be an ENFJ

 

[Kaipaus]

No, your explanation makes sense to me. Here is one example of one of the ways my Ni works. I tend to obsess on a problem or subject once I am engaged in it. This can often be quite frustrating. I became aware that I was often unconciously working on these things at night while I slept. Not necessarily dreaming about them, but continuing to process with the unconcious mind. I found I could even have a bit of control. If I set a problem in my mind, and told myself to work on it at night, I would often have the answer "pop" into my head the next day.

Ha, my mom has always told me that she doesn't usually dream at night; she processes information. She even says that she knows that she's not awake when she does this. I have no idea about her type but she has said that she identifies with INFP and INFJ.

I have usually had pretty vivid dreams but I have noticed that when my mind is really focused on something, then I may not dream at night, but process information all night. It's like I'm thinking things through all night, and in the morning all I can remember is that I've been thinking intensely about a certain subject. This information-processing has increased in the past few years, but it started when I was in jr high and had prepared for a math exam all day-- the following night I didn't dream, my mind just unconsciosly processed all kinds of math problems. x)

 

[Kaipaus]

Von Hase,

Sorry to intrude, but how can you call MBTI "reality" or "science"? It is a theory and it hasn't been proven right. To my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) it isn't even academic psychology, but commercial/popular psychology, or something like psychoanalysis. it can be fascinating, but it cannot hold the absolute truth. It can be constructive when people use and understand it in constructive ways; or it can be damaging if people use and understand it in damaging ways (example: that it is black and white and holds the absolute truth about how each individual's mind works).

 

[Goatman455]

Precisely what I was trying to say, well done.


"If you have a primary judging function, then very easily."


I think what you may be seeing here is Fi users strong Fe coming out.


"Fe is actually more unconscious than Fi. It has been associated with the super-ego. Meaning that everyone uses it to try go 'fit in.' If you've ever gone against your better judgment to fit into a group, than you're unconsciously using Fe. For INFJs the trick is actually learning to use Fe consciously to build rapport, rather than using it in a defensive, subconscious manner (which, I think, unhealthy INFJs are prone to do)."


Not to be argumentative but going against your better judgment is a conscious thing. I think these "this function is more subconscious than that function" conversations are getting in the way of understanding things. I know that N is an unconscious process, but I just don't think you can say "It is the most unconscious, especially when F exists". There is no proof for this, and different systems define these in different ways. Again, in Socionics, unconscious processes differ depending on your Type.




"I think you're confusing 'Feeling' with emotion. From what I understand of Jung, Feeling is a relative judgment. It can be based on your own emotions (Fi) or based on what you perceive as the motives of the group (Fe). Either way it's a subjective judgment that is based on emotions rather than being emotions themselves."


Interesting, I like this perspective. That said, couldn't we may also be confusing the subconscious with Intuition. I am more going by experience with my use of the different functions Fi included. Everyone can relate. You know when an emotion just erupts from your subconscious mind out into your conscious? This is a very subconscious thing, and I just don't think I can say (for me at least) it is any more subconscious than when I use Ni.


Interesting points here, anyone have any ideas? Anyone share their experiences with Fi vs. Fe, and Ni vs Ne?



"It is a theory and it hasn't been proven right. To my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) it isn't even academic psychology, but commercial/popular psychology, or something like psychoanalysis."


Yes, and even Psychology is considered a "soft science" because it is based on things that can not be proven, it is very abstract. In the scientific community there is a sort of disrespect that soft sciences can get from hard sciences. It is a shame really, but it may stem from the fact that people can talk about it in a concrete fashion when there is not much that is concrete.

That is one of the reasons I find it so fascinating, and I am sure you guys do to, because we are Ns.


" Surely Ne Ni must work in tandem to some extent or am I off the mark."

I think this is probably true. Though perhaps not for everyone. I doubt anyone with a strong function (especially primary/secondary) would not go both directions with it.


"Ha, my mom has always told me that she doesn't usually dream at night; she processes information. She even says that she knows that she's not awake when she does this. I have no idea about her type but she has said that she identifies with INFP and INFJ."


That is an awesome way to describe sleeping. Good night, sweet processing!

 

[Baccal]

Thx for all your responses so far it has been most interesting, at times confusing but I like the alternate viewpoints although I do feel a level of frustration trying to reconcile the disparate elements which I feel/sense my brain trying to do in overdrive.

I have often read Ni written as a disengagement with surroundings followed an answer/thought/image popping into the head. This often occurs with me much to the annoyance of my INFP sister who I disturb with my oft new realisattions/revelations/epiphanies etc at the most annoying (for her) times.

I take this to be the result of Ni but not necessarily Ni itself which I see as a ubiquitous process running under the radar in the background at all times. I often find times when I zone out into a stream of Ni usually when showering or exercising or doing some mundane task such as brushing my teeth or waiting to sleep.

I am very creative and I distinguish Ne as being chains of unrelated free association although I'm sure they do have a link whereas Ni as always coming up with one answer from the linkages. Surely Ne Ni must work in tandem to some extent or am I off the mark. To converge surely you must have divergent threads to bring together?

I wondered if this is similar to other people's experience of this process/function.

 

[mjgjr706]

Trying to explain Ni in a logical followable way is near impossible... The reason is that it is crazy and it jumps steps. Ni is completely non linear in its workings and it jumps steps like a monkey on a jungle gym. It seem almost like divine randomness and completely nonsensical to the outsider. You see most people get to Z by starting at A and going ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSSTUVWXYZ... Ni does it this way ABCD...Z so how do we explain this in a logical way? It would literally be like getting in a car in North Carolina and starting to drive for California... You are driving along, you go through Tennessee, then Missouri then right before you get to Kansas you suddenly teleport to San Fransisco. Now imagine your friend calls you and wants to know step by step directions to California. This is my understanding of Ni and this is why it is hard to articulate... Let me know if my understanding is incorrect.. But this is how I understand it.

 

[Ria]

Thx for all your responses so far it has been most interesting, at times confusing but I like the alternate viewpoints although I do feel a level of frustration trying to reconcile the disparate elements which I feel/sense my brain trying to do in overdrive.

I have often read Ni written as a disengagement with surroundings followed an answer/thought/image popping into the head. This often occurs with me much to the annoyance of my INFP sister who I disturb with my oft new realisattions/revelations/epiphanies etc at the most annoying (for her) times.

I take this to be the result of Ni but not necessarily Ni itself which I see as a ubiquitous process running under the radar in the background at all times. I often find times when I zone out into a stream of Ni usually when showering or exercising or doing some mundane task such as brushing my teeth or waiting to sleep.

I am very creative and I distinguish Ne as being chains of unrelated free association although I'm sure they do have a link whereas Ni as always coming up with one answer from the linkages. Surely Ne Ni must work in tandem to some extent or am I off the mark. To converge surely you must have divergent threads to bring together?

I wondered if this is similar to other people's experience of this process/function.

all types have great things to offer; logic, emotion, thinking, feeling, sensing and percieving etc. I have tried to develope all my sides even before I understood and learned about MBTI. When I was small, I barely spoke because what I had to say went either ignored or it was met with ridicule...

While growing, I found myself in situations where being my type caused me to miss opportunities, risk being misunderstood and shut down and I went away from certain situations feeling frustrated about myself and wishing I could change so I could take risks that were necessary to move forward; one day I just said f**k it and just started to take risks. In the beginning it was because I had no choice, but with practice and some degree of success at times, even tho I wasn't as encouraged as I would have liked to have been, I still continued taking risks.

I am seemingly off topic here, but I do actually have a point.

My point is this. We all possess each MBTI characteristic but just in greater and lesser degrees... (stating the obvious) It's just that it's important to just get on and practice the skills of expanding yrself so that u can get by in life the very best for yrself and yr families. As a feeling person, I use this in my line of work, and I am excellent at dealing with Dementia patients at work. (not everyone in healthcare can say that, even with training).
I am now close in my judging and percieving because throughout my 30's, I was in posisions where just simply going by judging was simply backfiring on me and I needed to expand my thinking to try and get it all in... (I don't like to lose)
I was suddenly in the position where it was up to me to b the main breadwinner for my children, (and their only parent), so I had to practice my extroverted skills so the three of us could live in a largly extroverted world...

I think it feels like an unnecessary conversation sometimes, this use of N's, F's and i's. It's nice to throw them around and all, but in the big picture, it is the use of them 'naturally' (only my opinion), that makes this forum great as we take away with us, our own individualistic thoughts and feelings about what we have read to help us in our unique lives.

I also see lots of support here for eachother, but tend to wonder sometimes how effective the 'debate' part is when it sometimes happens. Discussions seem (and feel) more comfortable to me. I enjoy reading posts that state what works for each member. I feel somewhat uncomfortable inside when I feel debates as I begin to experience those posts within myself and I am able to feel each person's feelings and understand each person's reasons for posting what they did. For me personally, it makes me want to 'walk away' because it feels too loud in the moment.

My post turned out to be wayyyy longer than I intended.

 

[Goatman455]

Trying to explain Ni in a logical followable way is near impossible... The reason is that it is crazy and it jumps steps. Ni is completely non linear in its workings and it jumps steps like a monkey on a jungle gym. It seem almost like divine randomness and completely nonsensical to the outsider. You see most people get to Z by starting at A and going ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSSTUVWXYZ... Ni does it this way ABCD...Z so how do we explain this in a logical way? It would literally be like getting in a car in North Carolina and starting to drive for California... You are driving along, you go through Tennessee, then Missouri then right before you get to Kansas you suddenly teleport to San Fransisco. Now imagine your friend calls you and wants to know step by step directions to California. This is my understanding of Ni and this is why it is hard to articulate... Let me know if my understanding is incorrect.. But this is how I understand it.

I agree, but Ne does this as well, this is a function of Intuition, not Ni specifically.

I also wonder, are we really teleporting?, or are we just not aware that we just drove through a bunch of states? I think sometimes when we get the insight, deep down, there is an explainable process, but we are just not in touch with our subconscious enough to explain it or see it.

I really like the car analogy, that's pretty true. Also, I wish I could drive like that, it would make traffic a lot easier to deal with.

 

[Satya]

Yeah that is a great post on how to properly utilize Ni, or perhaps an Introverted function as well. The funny thing is, I notice this same aspect with Ne, I think what they said applies to both, what a great insight.

I'm not sure what you mean, but I find a large difference between Ni and Ne. In a word, the difference is depth. Ni seeks a deeper understanding of whatever it is focused on whereas Ne seeks a breadth of understanding of whatever it is focused on. That difference is why Ni is known for foresight and insight and why Ne is known for innovation and creativity. I like to think of Ni as the little philosopher, always seeking a deeper understanding of the world, and Ne as the little inventor, always seeking news ways to view the world.

 

[Final]

I have often read Ni written as a disengagement with surroundings followed an answer/thought/image popping into the head. This often occurs with me much to the annoyance of my INFP sister who I disturb with my oft new realisattions/revelations/epiphanies etc at the most annoying (for her) times.

I take this to be the result of Ni but not necessarily Ni itself which I see as a ubiquitous process running under the radar in the background at all times. I often find times when I zone out into a stream of Ni usually when showering or exercising or doing some mundane task such as brushing my teeth or waiting to sleep.

As a Teaching Assistant, I've found that when people ask me a question, I need to take a minute, zone out, and allow myself time to see the problem.

If I feel overwhelmed along with a need to think about things, I take a shower in complete darkness. It's amazing.

 

[Baccal]

I agree with what you say Ria about internalising debates. I have noticed this myself as I take on board other people's viewpoints and lose my own trying again to reconcile the differences into a coherent whole. I 'feel' the conflict in a not very healthy way also.

Bit like over empathising or over identifying.

I don't necessarily believe in there being one right or wrong answer as we are all the same but different and I find the amalgamation of individual real life perspectives more elucidating than the dry constructs of the concepts.

I enjoy the various imagery/images used by different users.

I turned to typology with an interest in 'finding' myself to move forward in life but I think it is very easy from my own experience to get tied to a tag and forget the primacy of our individuality and experiences which may or may not fit into any given category.

Thought I would share my ramblings

 

[gloomy-optimist]

Ni is rarely conscious. It's been described as a "aha!" moment, mostly because you don't really realize it's working until you actually have an answer.

However, a stream of consciousness is also Ni. If you allow your mind to wander, then conclude as it comes, that's Ni. I remember someone saying that if you want to consciously turn on Ni, you should go take a shower and turn off the lights and let your mind go. That's Ni. Epiphanies, revelations, insights -- that's Ni.

 

[Baccal]

Doesn't everyone think this way gloomy-optimist?
I guess the answer is no.