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I agree with shai. You have complete control over yourself. Lock yourself up in a hole and see who comes looking. Even if they show up you don't have to let them in. They may force your body they can never force your mind...
How much of our lives to we control?
- Thread starter KingOfSpades
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S
Shai Gar
PRECISELY!
mankycustard
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In regards to my health, I do actually take an approach where I try to take as much control over it as I can. I actually use mainly alternative therapies, as conventional medicine does not offer much for what is actually wrong with me. I find that with conventional methods people turn up at a doctors surgery and expect to be made better. They question nothing and just take what is offered. With the alternative methods I use the focus is very much on the patient making themselves better. I have had good success with it and I hope to make good progress in my life. However, it takes time to heal and get better and whilst at my most ill I could not work (I was sacked from two jobs). I had no entitlement to benefits and therefore no money. In that situation and at that moment in my life, I did not have control over my life. Life at times for me has been so very, very basic and I do see many gains that I have made from that, but given a choice of whether I have an illness or not....Of course I wouldn't choose it and I'd have my career back please! I have had times when I have been very disabled but there are many out there who have it much worse than I..... Do you think someone with Alzheimers has control?
ZenCat
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This aspect of the discussion (control over health) could, IMO, get ugly.
I urge everyone to think before they hit that Submit button.
Especially if they have never experienced a debilitating illness or condition, cared for someone with one, or given birth to someone with one.
I urge everyone to think before they hit that Submit button.
Especially if they have never experienced a debilitating illness or condition, cared for someone with one, or given birth to someone with one.
KingOfSpades
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Yea I think this is a bit different then what I'm asking. I agree that if you make a conscious choice to do something, then you are in control of the consequences. "Lock yourself up in a hole" is just that -- you've locked yourself up in a hole.
I'm rather asking about random events, or what we would conventionally classify as random. I think health is a good (but not complete) intersection of that; death, as well. (Sorry Shai Gar but those are all the details I have about the car accident, just heard through the grapevine about it a few months back).
I've never been in a war, but my understanding is that you see people you know and respect get killed right in front of you, while other people survive. Is that just a will to power/will to live operating? Are some people fated to die then?
There are some people (INFJs, even!) who claim to have clairvoyent skills, or other types of pre-cognition through their intuitive function. Does the future cast a shadow like that? Can we change that effect?
A girlfriend of a buddy of mine had a growth in her spinal column and had to get surgery a few weeks back. It wasn't cancerous; in fact, there are only 50 or so incidents of this specific type of growth in the past 50 years (or at least, that's how it was explained to me). She's in her late 20s and it's not common to get a non-cancerous growth in the spine at her age (again, as it was explained to me). Genes? Nature? Conscious choice? Random confluence of events? Maybe we just don't have an answer. I think it's hard to say that people choose in some manner to get sick like that. You can flirt with answers like, "they want attention" or something like that, but that strikes me as trite and unreasonable, at least without further explanation.
mankycustard
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From my own perspective, I do not know what has caused my illnesses. Could be genetic, could easily be radioactive fall out from Chernobyl....Who knows. I have treated myself holistically and in doing so I feel that there is a real possibility that my mind and body work together. I think my mental health can effect my physical body and importantly vice versa. That however does not mean that I have, at some point chosen these illnesses. I do believe that I feel strong emotions and that I hold those emotions deeply in my physical body. I have always been sensitive and I had hard early years (which I did not ever choose or have control over) in life which I feel may be part of why I have become physically ill. I am working on myself as much as I can but my point is that sometimes things happen in life that are out with our control.
I'd like to also to talk about death and whether we have any choice over that.... For me, the answer is no. I grieved for a family member who hung himself and I know that for most people that would be the most obvious death where the person had chosen to go... I think the opposite. I believe that when a persons mental health is pushed to that extreme, they actually are not choosing their end, they have lost control. That may be hard for some people to understand but I see that as clear as day.
I'd like to also to talk about death and whether we have any choice over that.... For me, the answer is no. I grieved for a family member who hung himself and I know that for most people that would be the most obvious death where the person had chosen to go... I think the opposite. I believe that when a persons mental health is pushed to that extreme, they actually are not choosing their end, they have lost control. That may be hard for some people to understand but I see that as clear as day.
ZenCat
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For the second time, I'm requesting we handle this aspect of the topic with a little sensitivity. Particularly if we don't have first hand experience as I mentioned in my last post.
There really are some things that you can't necessarily intuit, and words can hurt some people. Please consider whether being judgmental or roughly offhand about other people's health conditions - or suicide - will further the exploration of the original topic.
There really are some things that you can't necessarily intuit, and words can hurt some people. Please consider whether being judgmental or roughly offhand about other people's health conditions - or suicide - will further the exploration of the original topic.
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And I am out..
mankycustard
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Sorry, perhaps I went too far bringing up such an extreme/taboo subject and I am also sorry if my opinion on that subject may offend or hurt any other person. I tend to find it best to be open about it as I find the deadly silence around that subject to be a killer. However, I do realize other people could be going through something similar and we all deal with these things in different ways.
I think it is fairly obvious where I stand on the control debate and I can think of areas in life where control can be highly unhealthy...... I better just leave it at that.
I think it is fairly obvious where I stand on the control debate and I can think of areas in life where control can be highly unhealthy...... I better just leave it at that.
KingOfSpades
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Hi Zen Cat,
didn't mean to offend. No need to continue the discussion if there is a risk of people getting hurt.
S
Shai Gar
mentioning anything at all gives the risk of being hurt.
ZenCat
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Apology
I want to clarify that my posts requesting additional sensitivity in this thread were given by me as an individual and NOT on behalf of the Administration/Moderating staff of this forum.
I gather that some considered my pleas to be along the lines of censorship or censure but that was in no way my intent.
My intentions in posting those cautions were based on the hope that people would exercise a higher degree of sensitivity in how they expressed their opinions on the subject of those who some might perceive as being "In control" of things like cancer, inherited conditions, congenital conditions, and even suicide of a loved one (which can DEEPLY affect a person's life, though no choice of their own).
I myself have experienced caring for someone with a disease I felt was not something they could have had any control over (Alzheimers Disease), lost a beloved parent to cancer, have a good friend who fathered a child born with a congenital disease (not under the parent's control, not under the child's control), and lost two family members to suicide (father, grandfather). I am prepared to admit that I may therefore have a higher degree of sensitivity to this subject than necessary for true objectivity.
It is my habit to treat others as I would wish to be treated myself and even to put myself in their place and imagine how something is making them feel... in this case, with sensitivity for life-altering events that others may perceive as matters of control or choice. That's my explanation for posting my pleas in this thread.
Again... my comments were personal, not an act of Moderation. And I will make a concerted effort in the future to keep these two sides separate, or at least more obvious.
Please feel free to continue this discussion with freedom. I regret that I have caused anyone to feel censured.
I want to clarify that my posts requesting additional sensitivity in this thread were given by me as an individual and NOT on behalf of the Administration/Moderating staff of this forum.
I gather that some considered my pleas to be along the lines of censorship or censure but that was in no way my intent.
My intentions in posting those cautions were based on the hope that people would exercise a higher degree of sensitivity in how they expressed their opinions on the subject of those who some might perceive as being "In control" of things like cancer, inherited conditions, congenital conditions, and even suicide of a loved one (which can DEEPLY affect a person's life, though no choice of their own).
I myself have experienced caring for someone with a disease I felt was not something they could have had any control over (Alzheimers Disease), lost a beloved parent to cancer, have a good friend who fathered a child born with a congenital disease (not under the parent's control, not under the child's control), and lost two family members to suicide (father, grandfather). I am prepared to admit that I may therefore have a higher degree of sensitivity to this subject than necessary for true objectivity.
It is my habit to treat others as I would wish to be treated myself and even to put myself in their place and imagine how something is making them feel... in this case, with sensitivity for life-altering events that others may perceive as matters of control or choice. That's my explanation for posting my pleas in this thread.
Again... my comments were personal, not an act of Moderation. And I will make a concerted effort in the future to keep these two sides separate, or at least more obvious.
Please feel free to continue this discussion with freedom. I regret that I have caused anyone to feel censured.
S
Shai Gar
Autoimmune diseases are things which are outside of your control as they're invisible, seemingly without cause and are rare to detect before they cause damage. I addressed that and do not believe that anyone can control that aspect of themselves.
With reference to cancer I meant skin/lung/pancreatic/colorectal cancer, I should have specified. These cancers are influenced by various factors, quite a few of them have to do with smoking and drinking alcohol and your diet. Obviously you cannot influence your own age or other factors of similar inevitability, however the ones you can influence are very important to being able to control your life.
While it might SEEM ignorant, it isn't really.
mankycustard
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I see where your coming from with the idea that certain cancers could have been avoided by different lifestyle changes but again I don't agree. I do not see the causes of cancer as being so simple. I know many people who have lived very long, healthy lives but who were the biggest chain smoking alcoholics on the planet.
Skin cancer is indeed probably the one cancer that we could try to prevent by taking measures not to over expose ourselves in the sun (not that there is much where I live!!) but again how can you blame someone for their skin cancer if it has been caused by over exposure in their early years of childhood? How can you know when their skin became damaged and how can a child who may have been neglected by their guardians be blamed? The world is just not so black and white.
I have never been a smoker as my grandmother died due to smoking related lung cancer and it did have an impact on me. However, I have become a little cynical over the years and I think that governments love to use smoking as a cause for many illnesses. Whilst I agree it probably isn't the healthiest of activities, I also feel there is so, so much that we never hear about. From pesticides sprayed on foods to small spillages of radioactive materials.
You can try to control your life when you are privileged enough to have choices but there are many (perhaps the majority) who are not so privileged. I personally feel that trying to be so in control is not exactly a healthy way to live anyway. A good example is anorexia. There are different causes of anorexia but one, and a common one at that, are people who are trying to feel in control. Ironically, the need to be in control leads to the person being completely out of control.
I could go on forever, I haven't even touched on poverty and war, but I have to stop now. Good luck to anyone wishing to control their lives but I think it is naive to think that you can control everything.
(Zencat, I could see you were trying to be a friendly guardian of those with personal sensitivities on the subjects coming up in this thread. I knew when posting on certain subjects that people using an anonymous forum may well talk in a way that may be quite blunt. I felt I could handle that but had forgotten that other people reading my posts may have gone through similar things and may not be feeling so strong. I have not always been so strong and understand that blunt conversations about such subjects can turn stomachs. You seem to me to be a very sensitive but also very sensible individual and your advice during this thread was appreciated....by me anyway x)
Skin cancer is indeed probably the one cancer that we could try to prevent by taking measures not to over expose ourselves in the sun (not that there is much where I live!!) but again how can you blame someone for their skin cancer if it has been caused by over exposure in their early years of childhood? How can you know when their skin became damaged and how can a child who may have been neglected by their guardians be blamed? The world is just not so black and white.
I have never been a smoker as my grandmother died due to smoking related lung cancer and it did have an impact on me. However, I have become a little cynical over the years and I think that governments love to use smoking as a cause for many illnesses. Whilst I agree it probably isn't the healthiest of activities, I also feel there is so, so much that we never hear about. From pesticides sprayed on foods to small spillages of radioactive materials.
You can try to control your life when you are privileged enough to have choices but there are many (perhaps the majority) who are not so privileged. I personally feel that trying to be so in control is not exactly a healthy way to live anyway. A good example is anorexia. There are different causes of anorexia but one, and a common one at that, are people who are trying to feel in control. Ironically, the need to be in control leads to the person being completely out of control.
I could go on forever, I haven't even touched on poverty and war, but I have to stop now. Good luck to anyone wishing to control their lives but I think it is naive to think that you can control everything.
(Zencat, I could see you were trying to be a friendly guardian of those with personal sensitivities on the subjects coming up in this thread. I knew when posting on certain subjects that people using an anonymous forum may well talk in a way that may be quite blunt. I felt I could handle that but had forgotten that other people reading my posts may have gone through similar things and may not be feeling so strong. I have not always been so strong and understand that blunt conversations about such subjects can turn stomachs. You seem to me to be a very sensitive but also very sensible individual and your advice during this thread was appreciated....by me anyway x)
alcyone
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Control
I think that this word needs a bit of definition. (I’m starting to feel like the Merriam Webster Slut here….)
transitive verb
1 aarchaic : to check, test, or verify by evidence or experiments b: to incorporate suitable controls in <a controlled experiment>2 a: to exercise restraining or directing influence over : REGULATE b: to have power over : RULE c: to reduce the incidence or severity of especially to innocuous levels <control an insect population> <control a disease>intransitive verb: to incorporate controls in an experiment or study –used with for<control for socioeconomic differences>
Noun
1 a: an act or instance of controlling ; also : power or authority to guide or manage
b: skill in the use of a tool, instrument, technique, or artistic medium
c: the regulation of economic activity especially by government directive –usually used in plural <price controls>
d: the ability of a baseball pitcher to control the location of a pitch within the strike zone
2: RESTRAINT , RESERVE3: one that controls: as
a (1): an experiment in which the subjects are treated as in a parallel experiment except for omission of the procedure or agent under test and which is used as a standard of comparison in judging experimental effects –called also control experiment (2): one (as an organism, culture, or group) that is part of a control
b: a device or mechanism used to regulate or guide the operation of a machine, apparatus, or system
c: an organization that directs a spaceflight <mission control> d: a personality or spirit believed to actuate the utterances or performances of a spiritualist medium
I wish to reiterate the first definition of the Noun Control….. the power or authority to guide or manage.
I am getting the sense that ‘control’ in the sense talked about in this thread has some sort of omnipotent overtones. As in ‘we’ (being first person) have the ultimate authority over whatever is in question, whether it be the small things in life….or the big ones.
Generally we all have the ability to control or manage is our decisions. There are exceptions to this however. There are exceptions to most things. When no lee way for exceptions is made in a debate, the discussion has effectively stalled and nothing good or positive can come from the interaction.
Could Manky have predicted that she’d (oops…are you a she???? *prepares to remove foot from mouth*) be struck down in the prime of career and life by an Autoimmune disease? Probably not, it is my understanding that Auto Immune Diseases tend to be genetic and run in families. Had Manky known that there was family with the same disorder, possibly she would have known what to look for in herself? I don’t know, no one can ever know. We can’t control, manage, or change the past. We can manage, guide, and shape our futures.
Could those of you affected by the needless deaths of loved ones by their own hand predicted their acts?
Could a cancer sufferer have predicted their illnesses?….Do we know which of us will be diagnosed as having Alzheimer’s?
Our only fall back is knowledge. Knowledge is power, and is empowering. The more we know, the more options we give ourselves. Knowing our families medical histories. Knowing what is happening with our friends and relatives. Learning the signs of severe depression. Watching what is happening around us. Minimizing the risk we take on. We may not be able to avert everything negative that may happen in our lives, but we can control how we deal with it.
Hindsight is always 20/20. In reflecting upon the tragedies that occurred in our lives, we can’t help but beat ourselves over with What ifs, What could’s, Why’s. We seek to identify what control we had that might have altered the outcome. We then seek to control that more in the future.
Our lives are like a mountain river….Gravity pulls the water down, an unstoppable, impersonal, relentless, force. The water flows around and over the obstacles in its path to continue its journey. Sometimes the number and scope of the obstacles result in rapids, where by we feel that everything possible is getting into our way. Other times it is placid and smooth. There are times we are caught in whirlpools, circling and circling to no effect. There might be times when we are backed up by something very large, we feel dammed up, repressed and restrained….but eventually we can indeed move past it to continue our journeys. Through every stage of our journey, we are altered and changed, and we can never go back to the way we were, however, at every new stage there are things we didn’t have before. Things we should appreciate more for themselves and for the loss of what was.
I think that this word needs a bit of definition. (I’m starting to feel like the Merriam Webster Slut here….)
transitive verb
1 aarchaic : to check, test, or verify by evidence or experiments b: to incorporate suitable controls in <a controlled experiment>2 a: to exercise restraining or directing influence over : REGULATE b: to have power over : RULE c: to reduce the incidence or severity of especially to innocuous levels <control an insect population> <control a disease>intransitive verb: to incorporate controls in an experiment or study –used with for<control for socioeconomic differences>
Noun
1 a: an act or instance of controlling ; also : power or authority to guide or manage
b: skill in the use of a tool, instrument, technique, or artistic medium
c: the regulation of economic activity especially by government directive –usually used in plural <price controls>
d: the ability of a baseball pitcher to control the location of a pitch within the strike zone
2: RESTRAINT , RESERVE3: one that controls: as
a (1): an experiment in which the subjects are treated as in a parallel experiment except for omission of the procedure or agent under test and which is used as a standard of comparison in judging experimental effects –called also control experiment (2): one (as an organism, culture, or group) that is part of a control
b: a device or mechanism used to regulate or guide the operation of a machine, apparatus, or system
c: an organization that directs a spaceflight <mission control> d: a personality or spirit believed to actuate the utterances or performances of a spiritualist medium
I wish to reiterate the first definition of the Noun Control….. the power or authority to guide or manage.
I am getting the sense that ‘control’ in the sense talked about in this thread has some sort of omnipotent overtones. As in ‘we’ (being first person) have the ultimate authority over whatever is in question, whether it be the small things in life….or the big ones.
Generally we all have the ability to control or manage is our decisions. There are exceptions to this however. There are exceptions to most things. When no lee way for exceptions is made in a debate, the discussion has effectively stalled and nothing good or positive can come from the interaction.
Could Manky have predicted that she’d (oops…are you a she???? *prepares to remove foot from mouth*) be struck down in the prime of career and life by an Autoimmune disease? Probably not, it is my understanding that Auto Immune Diseases tend to be genetic and run in families. Had Manky known that there was family with the same disorder, possibly she would have known what to look for in herself? I don’t know, no one can ever know. We can’t control, manage, or change the past. We can manage, guide, and shape our futures.
Could those of you affected by the needless deaths of loved ones by their own hand predicted their acts?
Could a cancer sufferer have predicted their illnesses?….Do we know which of us will be diagnosed as having Alzheimer’s?
Our only fall back is knowledge. Knowledge is power, and is empowering. The more we know, the more options we give ourselves. Knowing our families medical histories. Knowing what is happening with our friends and relatives. Learning the signs of severe depression. Watching what is happening around us. Minimizing the risk we take on. We may not be able to avert everything negative that may happen in our lives, but we can control how we deal with it.
Hindsight is always 20/20. In reflecting upon the tragedies that occurred in our lives, we can’t help but beat ourselves over with What ifs, What could’s, Why’s. We seek to identify what control we had that might have altered the outcome. We then seek to control that more in the future.
Our lives are like a mountain river….Gravity pulls the water down, an unstoppable, impersonal, relentless, force. The water flows around and over the obstacles in its path to continue its journey. Sometimes the number and scope of the obstacles result in rapids, where by we feel that everything possible is getting into our way. Other times it is placid and smooth. There are times we are caught in whirlpools, circling and circling to no effect. There might be times when we are backed up by something very large, we feel dammed up, repressed and restrained….but eventually we can indeed move past it to continue our journeys. Through every stage of our journey, we are altered and changed, and we can never go back to the way we were, however, at every new stage there are things we didn’t have before. Things we should appreciate more for themselves and for the loss of what was.
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KingOfSpades
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I wonder whether this issue is a really personal one....and maybe that would explain the impassioned responses 
I've known plenty of "control freaks" in my life who never really appeared to be enjoying their lives at all, and I've known plenty of pretty lazy (in my view) people who have had great opportunities handed to them through luck.
I enjoy reading a lot of stuff on Taoism, and there is a real emphasis (at least from what I can read) on ceding control to larger forces to achieve your goals. They use the imagery a lot of being in the river of life and "going with the flow" of the river, not fighting the current and just enjoying the ride.
I still feel there is a paradox that I can't understand over my ability to control things versus my ability to not have control. Maybe that's the source of that famous "serenity prayer":
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Maybe this is just something we all answer at an individual level?
[/FONT]
I've known plenty of "control freaks" in my life who never really appeared to be enjoying their lives at all, and I've known plenty of pretty lazy (in my view) people who have had great opportunities handed to them through luck. alcyone said:
I enjoy reading a lot of stuff on Taoism, and there is a real emphasis (at least from what I can read) on ceding control to larger forces to achieve your goals. They use the imagery a lot of being in the river of life and "going with the flow" of the river, not fighting the current and just enjoying the ride.
I still feel there is a paradox that I can't understand over my ability to control things versus my ability to not have control. Maybe that's the source of that famous "serenity prayer":
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Maybe this is just something we all answer at an individual level?
[/FONT]