I don't understand Fi

[Quinlan]

Well this thread has well and truly confused me, Satya's post was the only thing that made any real sense to me.

 

[frozen_water]

Well, the whole "I'm going to make decisions my way, rest of the world be damned," selfish thing I think applies to every function fairly equally.

Fi does it as a mode of self-expression and authenticity, but Ti does it because it doesn't naturally think objective reality is affected by subjective things (small exception existing for if you're talking about something recognized as subjective, like feelings or points of view. "What I should do in this situation" isn't, though, as Ti tries to get away from subjective limitations and see past them as much as possible.).

Te is the furthest removed from being personal, and acts pretty much based on efficiency, because the Te-individual doesn't like to waste time. There may be no reason to be efficient, except that they don't like it, but they'll still try to force everyone to be efficient--which is selfish.

Fe is seflsih when it forces moral judgments on other people. I've never known an INFJ to do things like this (though I haven't met a huge sample size), but once I was walking around barefoot in a public-ish place, and an ESFJ friendlily-laughed at me (in a semi-nice way) for being "so strange." The Fe way of selfishness is "I don't care what you think. I'm going to enforce cultural customs because it's what I do." It's not a selfless thing, because if nobody else is around to see whatever bothers them, then nothing is being hurt by it--yet Fe enforces the standards anyway. I think that that's selfishly motivated, too.



Also: the bit about "acting like the center of the universe, and everyone else bends around it" is a characteristic of intraverted functions in general... not so much just an Fi thing. That is, I think it's fair to say that the Fi decisions are made without regard for many reasons outside of themselves, but not that the IxFP acts like the center of the universe and tries to make it bend around them.

It would be a bit like if I asked you, "where do you get your information? How do you know the things you do?" It doesn't come from the outside world, but it's drawn (mostly) from within. You can't explain how you know the things you foresee, and since the information is within you, nobody else can sense it. That's their decision-making process. It's without regard for external things, but not a whole lot more selfish than when you ignore external information and say "I know this is right," in one of those world-famous INFJ hunches.

 

[VH]

Well this thread has well and truly confused me, Satya's post was the only thing that made any real sense to me.

Heh, that's probably because Satya is Fi dominant. His perspective is going to be in much more alignment with your own. The rest of us are speaking from Fe, which is the polar opposite end of the F spectrum.

We're all trying to meet in the middle, heh.

Well, the whole "I'm going to make decisions my way, rest of the world be damned," selfish thing I think applies to every function fairly equally.

Fi does it as a mode of self-expression and authenticity, but Ti does it because it doesn't naturally think objective reality is affected by subjective things (small exception existing for if you're talking about something recognized as subjective, like feelings or points of view. "What I should do in this situation" isn't, though, as Ti tries to get away from subjective limitations and see past them as much as possible.).

Te is the furthest removed from being personal, and acts pretty much based on efficiency, because the Te-individual doesn't like to waste time. There may be no reason to be efficient, except that they don't like it, but they'll still try to force everyone to be efficient--which is selfish.

Fe is seflsih when it forces moral judgments on other people. I've never known an INFJ to do things like this (though I haven't met a huge sample size), but once I was walking around barefoot in a public-ish place, and an ESFJ friendlily-laughed at me (in a semi-nice way) for being "so strange." The Fe way of selfishness is "I don't care what you think. I'm going to enforce cultural customs because it's what I do." It's not a selfless thing, because if nobody else is around to see whatever bothers them, then nothing is being hurt by it--yet Fe enforces the standards anyway. I think that that's selfishly motivated, too.



Also: the bit about "acting like the center of the universe, and everyone else bends around it" is a characteristic of intraverted functions in general... not so much just an Fi thing. That is, I think it's fair to say that the Fi decisions are made without regard for many reasons outside of themselves, but not that the IxFP acts like the center of the universe and tries to make it bend around them.

It would be a bit like if I asked you, "where do you get your information? How do you know the things you do?" It doesn't come from the outside world, but it's drawn (mostly) from within. You can't explain how you know the things you foresee, and since the information is within you, nobody else can sense it. That's their decision-making process. It's without regard for external things, but not a whole lot more selfish than when you ignore external information and say "I know this is right," in one of those world-famous INFJ hunches.

This is very insightful.

Oddly enough, you made a very astute comment inadvertently. "I've never known an INFJ to do things like this (though I haven't met a huge sample size)" It really is rare that an INFJ will give a disclaimer like that before diving into a hunch. Heh.

However, when you gave the example from your ESFJ, it reminded me of something I've noticed rather frequently. The assumptions about Fe are often muddied by the influence of Si because the vast majority of people who are Fe dominant (or secondary) are SFJs. Something like 15% of the population are ISFJ or ESFJ, while less than 2% are ENFJ or INFJ. Because of this, most of the published Fe descriptions, Lenore Thompson being the leading offender in this issue, are tainted with a an Si bias. Si puts a strong spin of cultural and traditional expectations into Fe. Yes, Fe does apply itself to others whether they want it to or not. However, when coupled with Ni, Fe takes on a much more liberated role because Ni has bias to future outcomes not past traditions. This is also why Fe is sometimes difficult to distinguish from Fi in the case of NFJs. Fe and Ni can seem to seek the authenticity and personal truth that Fi is famous for, but this is a shadow function of both Ni and Fe combined.

 

[DefectiveCreative]

Self-quoting from infpverse:

As I understand it, Fe is all about doing what is best by/for "the group" (friends/workmates/society at large/whatever), as opposed to Fi, which is about what's best by/for the individual.

Ni provides *NFJs with powerful visions of "what could be", which prompts them to try to shape "the group" to match those visions (that's why ENFJs in particular get the label of being manipulative).

*SFJs use Si to refer to their storehouse of knowledge about accepted traditions, so that they can use it as a guideline for what will make "the group" happiest.

 

[Quinlan]

As I understand it, Fe is all about doing what is best by/for "the group" (friends/workmates/society at large/whatever), as opposed to Fi, which is about what's best by/for the individual.

This is right but I just want to add a little disclaimer that the "individual" we (Fi) are concerned for isn't always ouselves. So we're not quite as self-centred as that quote could possibly come across as.

 

[foureyes]

How selfish or selfless you are has nothing to do with beinf Fi or Fe. They're just different, especially in how a person tries to express their feeling. An Fi person trys to express their inner joy to others by trying to acting like a very happy entertaining person, trying to lift the others spirits in this way while Fe ppl express their emotions by being grateful and supportive to ppl they care about.

 

[foureyes]

Another difference between Fi and Fe is that Fis feel very connected to ppl as individual and tend to sympathise more with humanity as a whole, while Fes tend to care more about people who they personally know and care for.
That's just the impression I've gotten.

 

[Pristinegirl]

Satya and Von Hase: You made something very confusing, Clear!

 

[AUM]

If we all use all the functions accordingly, how do we know if one function is more dominant than the other? Both Fe and Fi apply to me, and they both have the same power to act on situations. Yet, I still don't know which one is more dominant.

The Fe function I use it more when I'm dealing with other people and exchanging ideas. When someone is making others uncomfortable I feel how others are feeling so most times I ask the aggressors to stop what they're doing. If someone says a joke and noone laughs, I have the urge to laugh at the joke regardless if it was funny or not so the person won't feel bad. If there's a tense situation and everyone is stressed I try to make the situation humorous so the attitude changes and people can relax.

When I change to my Fi function, I notice that it dominates my personality in situations when I'm tense and stressed. If a situation is making me feel bad I do anything in my power to stop that feeling regardless if others might think "wtf is wrong with him?". I may come out as selfish or uninterested as a result of that. In addition, if I'm talking with someone I know immediately if they're telling me the truth or not or if they have other intentions than the ones that they came up to me to ask.(I'm not so sure if this is an Fi thing, but I wanted to share it nevertheless.) Other than that my Fi function is pretty non existant and I can say this clearly because from what I've heard is that Fi dominant know what they want and most of the times I have trouble deciding what I want. I can tell you what others want more than to myself.

 

[foureyes]

Well, while I believe that a persons personality can change, I don't think you can be both Fi anf Fe simultaneously. Your either one or the other. And like what I was saying before about how Fis and Fes express their emotions, that not exclusivly, but that is I'd say the most natural way of doin so. Not saying that Fes don't know how to be entertaining; that deffinately not true.
So what you were descrining, I'm not sure whether you were really expiriencing Fi or whether you were just expiriencing really intense Fe emotion. I think it could well be possible tho that your feels had gotten to be so over whelming that they switched to Fi but if that's true that a bit of your Ti became Fi, that would also mean that a bit of your Fe became Te, which is a really shitty and messed up emotional state to be at.
What you said about how you deal with your feeling this way, coming off as selfish, that's exactly an example of what I was trying to say like in the emotional health thread. Like its not like you don't car about the other ppl, you want to be your best for them but you've just become so emotionally distressed that you can't even pretend anymore. You don't want to act ina way that would at all emotionally upset/ confuse the other person but you really need to act that way because its necessary for you to ever regain an emotional well being.
I used to feel really guilty about that too, but really their no use in trying to pretend to be happy and okay when your really not at all. You can't escape from your emotions so it comes across anyway and you end up making people around you feel confused and depressed despite your self. Just be honest and act how you feel. All people's well beings are equally important so don't feel badly for dealing with your own first when the state your in is more critical. As for Everyone else, they'll get over it. Your acting how you need to so you can get over it. I know it sucks to know that your upsetting ppl in the mean time but just think of it as a necessary step, sothat once your healthy again, you can be your very best for them.

 

[DefectiveCreative]

How selfish or selfless you are has nothing to do with beinf Fi or Fe. They're just different, especially in how a person tries to express their feeling. An Fi person trys to express their inner joy to others by trying to acting like a very happy entertaining person, trying to lift the others spirits in this way while Fe ppl express their emotions by being grateful and supportive to ppl they care about.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I think Fi types are not necessarily more selfish than Fe types, but they are more self-interested. Fi at its most basic generally places the individual before the group, whereas Fe does the opposite. So I think Fi types are more prone to selfishness than Fe types, or at least to being perceived as being selfish.

I also think you're mistaken about the way Fi and Fe people express their emotions, I think anybody who was experiencing "inner joy" would express it by acting like a happy person, and I think the way you'd express gratitude and support is affected by cognitive functions, but I don't think being supportive and grateful in and of themselves have anything to do with them.

The Fe function I use it more when I'm dealing with other people and exchanging ideas. When someone is making others uncomfortable I feel how others are feeling so most times I ask the aggressors to stop what they're doing. If someone says a joke and noone laughs, I have the urge to laugh at the joke regardless if it was funny or not so the person won't feel bad. If there's a tense situation and everyone is stressed I try to make the situation humorous so the attitude changes and people can relax.

I don't think that's Fe, that just sounds like empathy to me. Fe is about putting the needs and desires of the individual aside for the needs and desires of the group, Fi is the opposite.

In addition, if I'm talking with someone I know immediately if they're telling me the truth or not or if they have other intentions than the ones that they came up to me to ask.(I'm not so sure if this is an Fi thing, but I wanted to share it nevertheless.)

I think it's an Fi thing in that Fi is also about congruence between thought and action, therefore Fi types are very alert to that type of thing in themselves and in others, more so than other types (though any sensible person values it)

To give an example, if an extreme Fe type and an extreme Fi type (who hadn't developed their other functions) were at a party and they were both feeling upset about something, the extreme Fi type would let it show even if it ruined the party for everyone else because of the importance Fi places on congruence between thought and action, whereas the extreme Fe type would hide how they were really feeling even if it would be more appropriate to show that they were upset, because they wouldn't want to upset the rest of the group.

Other than that my Fi function is pretty non existant and I can say this clearly because from what I've heard is that Fi dominant know what they want and most of the times I have trouble deciding what I want. I can tell you what others want more than to myself.

Fi types usually know how they feel about things, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they know what they want. Just check out the Careers and Education boards on the INFP forums and you can see just how confused Fi types can be about what it is they really want.

In INFPs this is because Ne gives us multiple choices all the time, so we can have difficulty deciding from them all. I don't know how it works in ISFPs though, you'd have to ask them about that. :/

 

[AUM]

I don't think that's Fe, that just sounds like empathy to me. Fe is about putting the needs and desires of the individual aside for the needs and desires of the group, Fi is the opposite.

I'm not sure I'm getting this. In a sitution or in a group dynamic I would usually put more emphasis on an individual who is experiencing problems than trying to keep up with the group. I feel that each individual deserves the attention they need and I really don't give a crap if a group agrees or not. However, I try to reach a concensuss with everyone to avoid conflicts in the future.

To give an example, if an extreme Fe type and an extreme Fi type (who hadn't developed their other functions) were at a party and they were both feeling upset about something, the extreme Fi type would let it show even if it ruined the party for everyone else because of the importance Fi places on congruence between thought and action, whereas the extreme Fe type would hide how they were really feeling even if it would be more appropriate to show that they were upset, because they wouldn't want to upset the rest of the group.

In this case I would stay shut and probably wont show my emotions but probably I owe this to my introverted nature that I hate to be in the spotlight and creating an argument in a party would bring in too much attention to myself.

Fi types usually know how they feel about things, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they know what they want. Just check out the Careers and Education boards on the INFP forums and you can see just how confused Fi types can be about what it is they really want.

I usually don't know how I feel either. If I'm upset over something it usually takes me along time to find out what emotion I was feeling. Other people are the ones that notice and usually ask " are you angry", " you seem so serious, is something wrong?", and I'm like "no, I'm fine" but most of the times I was actually upset but I wasn't aware of it until they pointed out.

In INFPs this is because Ne gives us multiple choices all the time, so we can have difficulty deciding from them all. I don't know how it works in ISFPs though, you'd have to ask them about that. :/

I will and thanks DefectiveCreative and Foureyes for your responses . This is interesting stuff

 

[foureyes]

Ur Welcome Last Dawn!

I'm not sure I agree with this. I think Fi types are not necessarily more selfish than Fe types, but they are more self-interested. Fi at its most basic generally places the individual before the group, whereas Fe does the opposite. So I think Fi types are more prone to selfishness than Fe types, or at least to being perceived as being selfish.

Well I disagree with you because I like yeah Fes care for ppl as a group but Fis care for everyone as individuals. And when excersizing their Te Fis care about ppl as a group just like while excersizing their Ti Fes care about ppl as individuals. Ans self-interested seems to be quite the synonm for selfish in my opinion. I mean I think I know what you mean but no I wouldn't necessarily agree. Ithink everyone is the same amount of selfish. If our Fi is supposed to make us really self-intersted which I don't really think it does than their Ti would make them the same way.

I also think you're mistaken about the way Fi and Fe people express their emotions, I think anybody who was experiencing "inner joy" would express it by acting like a happy person, and I think the way you'd express gratitude and support is affected by cognitive functions, but I don't think being supportive and grateful in and of themselves have anything to do with them.

I disagree with you here too because when your Fi, introverted feeling your feelings I think literally come from a place more inside of you and so its like when you are feeling really happy your trying to change the world by bahaving in a way that you think would cause the change desired.
While when your Fe and Ti you more behave that way with your thoughts and things, like you've go some genuis idea and your really excited to share it with everyone and in that way sort of make them understand how amazing the realization is and feel as excited or whatever about it as you do. That's sort of the same way Fis try and transfer their feelings to others as well.
Even though your an FJ aas your type and everything which means your emotional more often than not, I still think that your introvered function, Ti, is your most natural though often not acessed tremendously state. When your Fe something externally needs to provoke you to be emotional, whatever that may be while with Fis its . . . well I mean it is like that but . . . Grr I hate knowing exactly what I mean but not how to say it.
Basically I would just say that Fe and Fi are just different ways of feeling plain and simple. With Fi first you thinking about the situation (Te) and then you feel about it. When Your Fe you first feel for the situation and then you think about it how to respond.

I don't think that's Fe, that just sounds like empathy to me. Fe is about putting the needs and desires of the individual aside for the needs and desires of the group, Fi is the opposite.

empathy is just atype of emotion and Fi and Fe are the order/ process of how we expirience emotions.

I think it's an Fi thing in that Fi is also about congruence between thought and action, therefore Fi types are very alert to that type of thing in themselves and in others, more so than other types (though any sensible person values it)

Acting on your feelings, is that what your trying to say here? I'm not sure I follow . . .

To give an example, if an extreme Fe type and an extreme Fi type (who hadn't developed their other functions) were at a party and they were both feeling upset about something, the extreme Fi type would let it show even if it ruined the party for everyone else because of the importance Fi places on congruence between thought and action, whereas the extreme Fe type would hide how they were really feeling even if it would be more appropriate to show that they were upset, because they wouldn't want to upset the rest of the group.

Okay yeah now I really disagree with you. It's not like Fis don't try and hide their emotions it just really hard for them to because their feelings are their introverted most immediate state of being. But good lord it dosen't me that they don't try! Its just really hard for them to do thatcause that would mean they would be relying entirely on there underdeveloped Te function. Which it is extremly hard to do when they're already emotional. However it is possible to do with lots of practice, but to try and hide their emotions they would have to act a bit extremly another sort of way.
An example would be I was really depressed all last year but never tried to let it show because I didn't want ppl to have to share in my burdens. But also because I was really upset, using my Te I did try to hide it by acting very aloof/ shy/ I engaged in minimal conversation.

Fi types usually know how they feel about things, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they know what they want. Just check out the Careers and Education boards on the INFP forums and you can see just how confused Fi types can be about what it is they really want.

In INFPs this is because Ne gives us multiple choices all the time, so we can have difficulty deciding from them all. I don't know how it works in ISFPs though, you'd have to ask them about that. :/

I agree with the very last thing you said. For an ISFP their Se would prolly act the sameway.
For the part before that, Fis know what they want very clearly in the short term, but in the long term they are as clueless as the rest.

Thanks for your post Defective Creative. Hope I made sense and that you can agree with me

Also, I've been having trouble acessing the other pages of this site for a while now and the only way I acessed this one to responnd was thru the history. I hope this problem will go away but if it doesn't and I dissapear suddenly from this site its because of computer troubles.

 

[DefectiveCreative]

I'm not sure I'm getting this. In a sitution or in a group dynamic I would usually put more emphasis on an individual who is experiencing problems than trying to keep up with the group. I feel that each individual deserves the attention they need and I really don't give a crap if a group agrees or not. However, I try to reach a concensuss with everyone to avoid conflicts in the future.

That sounds to me like a typical Fi approach, placing the needs/desires of the individual ahead of the group. To quote, erm, you:

The Fe function I use it more when I'm dealing with other people and exchanging ideas. When someone is making others uncomfortable I feel how others are feeling so most times I ask the aggressors to stop what they're doing. If someone says a joke and noone laughs, I have the urge to laugh at the joke regardless if it was funny or not so the person won't feel bad. If there's a tense situation and everyone is stressed I try to make the situation humorous so the attitude changes and people can relax.

The bolded part of this could be used as an example of a more Fe approach, especially if we assume that the "aggressor" is not intentionally upsetting the group, but is simply being themselves. The individual is upsetting the group, so by getting them to stop you would be placing the needs/desires of the group ahead of the individual.

The second example you gave is IMO clearly "just" empathy, you're feeling what the other person is feeling, it isn't nice which makes you feel bad so you do something about it.

The third example doesn't really seem like any of them to me, no healthily developed person likes that kind of drama.

In this case I would stay shut and probably wont show my emotions but probably I owe this to my introverted nature that I hate to be in the spotlight and creating an argument in a party would bring in too much attention to myself.

I'm not necessarily talking about making a scene, in fact especially when it come to I*FPs I'm not. Being introverts, if they are upset about somethig they're much more likely to display it in a more passive aggressive manner.

To give another example, there's quite a long thread (which unfortunately I can't find) over on typeology central where an INFP made a post about how irritating she found it when she was expected to keep smiling at work even on those days when inside she felt miserable. The Fe types (and FTR what I mean by that is the FJs amongst us, that is: people with Fe in either a primary or secondary role) then tried to make the point that she was being unreasonable, and that her not smiling would upset or bother the other people at her workplace, which was rather selfish of her considering all it meant was putting on a smile when she didn't feel like it. The INFP in question maintained their position and insisted that they had the right to express their personal feelings that way regardless of whether it upset/bothered "the group" or not. It's a classic example of the different priorities of Fi and Fe. Fi - the individual, Fe - the group.

I usually don't know how I feel either. If I'm upset over something it usually takes me along time to find out what emotion I was feeling. Other people are the ones that notice and usually ask " are you angry", " you seem so serious, is something wrong?", and I'm like "no, I'm fine" but most of the times I was actually upset but I wasn't aware of it until they pointed out.

Do you know your enneagram type? Types 8, 9 and 1 are supposed to be pretty bad at determining exactly how they are feeling, especially 9s as they repress their feelings a lot.

I will and thanks DefectiveCreative and Foureyes for your responses . This is interesting stuff

You're welcome.

 

[foureyes]

Okay, well I guess I completely agree with what your saying now but with introverted feelers, if they don't conceale their emotions I think its literally because they sometimes just can't help it, you have to be really well developed with your Te to be able to get your feelings under control to the extent that you can. God, it took soo much effort trying to conceal my feelings from ppl.
I think maybe its just your extroverted function that makes you care for the group because when I'm using my Te I think in that way too. and depending how developed your extroverted function is depend on how "selfless" you act. But belive, I no from expirience how un healthy it is to try acting for the group when your emotional disressed. It just damages you further and doesn't even help the group.
I guess my Extroverted Thinking is pretty well developed because in the example you gave I rather agree with the Fe reaction. I don't think you have to be fake with them, just honest and polite. Just cause someone is annoying you should realise that's your problem deal with it your self and not make the other person feel like shit about doing nothing wrong. To do that would be incredibly selfish!
Oh sike that's not the situation. Well then no I don't think she should fake smile at them, as long as she's being polite and cooperative otherwise.
She shouldm't have to fake feeling a way that she doesn't.
Tho I mean fake smiling isn't that hard, but I mean if she wanted to act her real self at work then she shouldn't. And she didn't. Good for her.
I mean I only feel bad about someone not liking me if they go out of their way to make me feel like shit, but it they don't do that, they treat me with respect and keep to themselves then that wouldn't bother me at all.

 

[DefectiveCreative]

I wrote this big long response while you were typing that and it took me so long I'm posting it anyway.

Well I disagree with you because I like yeah Fes care for ppl as a group but Fis care for everyone as individuals. And when excersizing their Te Fis care about ppl as a group just like while excersizing their Ti Fes care about ppl as individuals.

How does Te make an Fi type care about the needs/desires of the group? Te is about labelling, categorizing and organising things. The only relationship it has with the group would therefore labelling, organising or categorising them, none of which rely on what the group needs or desires, but only what the Te user needs or desires from the group.

The same sort of thing goes for Ti in Fe types. Ti is essentially about objectively distilling complex systems down to their core essential truth (Einstein distilling a complex idea about the universe in to the formula E=MC2, for example). So I don't see how it would make a Fe user care about the needs/desires of an individual, if anything it would just help them figure out some core objective truth about whatever system they were using it on.

Ans self-interested seems to be quite the synonm for selfish in my opinion. I mean I think I know what you mean but no I wouldn't necessarily agree.

Not quite. Self-interest is about seeing to your own needs first, after that there's plenty of room for the needs of others. Selfishness is about caring only about your own needs or desires, other people's needs are irrelevant.

Self-interest, therefore, can obviously make an person more prone to selfishness or at least to being perceived as selfish.

I think everyone is the same amount of selfish. If our Fi is supposed to make us really self-intersted which I don't really think it does than their Ti would make them the same way.

But an Fe type's Ti is going to be in the tertiary or auxiliary role, whereas an Fi type's Fi is going to be in a primary or secondary role, so it plays a much bigger part in their behaviour.

I disagree with you here too because when your Fi, introverted feeling your feelings I think literally come from a place more inside of you and so its like when you are feeling really happy your trying to change the world by bahaving in a way that you think would cause the change desired.

I think you might be confusing "Feeling" as a function of the MBTI and "feelings" as an emotion, they're two different things.

Everybody experiences emotional responses to things (feelings), but Feeling as a function is just about whether you place a higher priority on those feelings than on pure objectivity, and the differnce between Fi and Fe is just whether you place a higher priority on the feelings of the individual or the feelings of the group respectively.

While when your Fe and Ti you more behave that way with your thoughts and things, like you've go some genuis idea and your really excited to share it with everyone and in that way sort of make them understand how amazing the realization is and feel as excited or whatever about it as you do. That's sort of the same way Fis try and transfer their feelings to others as well.

Having what you think is a great idea, being excited about it and wanting to share that with other people and have them be excited about it too is not type specific.

Even though your an FJ aas your type and everything which means your emotional more often than not, I still think that your introvered function, Ti, is your most natural though often not acessed tremendously state. When your Fe something externally needs to provoke you to be emotional, whatever that may be while with Fis its . . . well I mean it is like that but . . . Grr I hate knowing exactly what I mean but not how to say it.

No, as an FJ your most natural function would either be Ni for INFJs, Fe for E*FJs or Si for ISFJs. And any person can be emotionally provoked from either external or internal sources, it is not type specific.

Basically I would just say that Fe and Fi are just different ways of feeling plain and simple. With Fi first you thinking about the situation (Te) and then you feel about it. When Your Fe you first feel for the situation and then you think about it how to respond.

Like I said earlier, I think you may be confusing "Feeling" and "feelings".

As for how Fi types react to things, we don't use Te first , especially not I*FPs as it's only our auxiliary function (4th place).

In INFPs it happens something like this: say something happens and we are presented with a problem.
Firstly, we respond to that by making a judgement about it based on our internal value system (primary Fi).
We the start intuitively generating possible alternative scenarios, looking for a solution (secondary Ne).
If that doesn't work we'll fall back on whatever worked in the past, whether it's actually a good solution or not (tertiary Si).
If that doesn't work, only then will we use Te to try and make an objective rather than subjective judgement about it.

Other functions can be used as well (Ti, Se etc.) but not before we use Fi as it is an instinctual response for us. Also unless they've taken the time to develop it, INFPs tend to use Te quite negatively (trying to boss the problem around) as it is the hardest function for us to use because it takes so much energy.

empathy is just atype of emotion and Fi and Fe are the order/ process of how we expirience emotions.

No, empathy is not an emotion. Empathy is (to quote from Wiki): "...the capability to share and understand another's emotions and feelings."

Also, Fi and Fe are not ways of experiencing emption, but they are however indeed ways of processing emotions.

Acting on your feelings, is that what your trying to say here? I'm not sure I follow . . .

Sort of, congruence in this context means ensuring that your actions match the way you feel about things. You care about the environment, so you don't drive a honking great big car for example.

In the example I gave about being alert, what Fi types are being alert for is dis-integrity; a difference between how someone is really feeling and the way they are acting (an example would be those ingratiating salespeople who pretend to be your best friend and are only trying to make sure you get the best deal, but actually couldn't care less about you and are really only looking to screw you out of as much of your money as possible).

Okay yeah now I really disagree with you. It's not like Fis don't try and hide their emotions it just really hard for them to because their feelings are their introverted most immediate state of being. But good lord it dosen't me that they don't try! Its just really hard for them to do thatcause that would mean they would be relying entirely on there underdeveloped Te function. Which it is extremly hard to do when they're already emotional. However it is possible to do with lots of practice, but to try and hide their emotions they would have to act a bit extremly another sort of way.

Like I said in the response to Last Dawn, I wasn't really talking about making a scene. You're right about that being how typical Fi types react to their emotions, but I wasn't talking about typical Fi types, I was purposely using the example of extreme Fi's who hadn't develpoed their other functions to show that unrestrianed Fi would demand that their actions match up with their feelings, regardless of how that would make anyone else feel. You just have to look at underdeveloped INFPs to see that the only person's feelings they typically care about are their own. Check out the post I made about that thread on typeology central to see what kind of thing I was really trying to say.

An example would be I was really depressed all last year but never tried to let it show because I didn't want ppl to have to share in my burdens. But also because I was really upset, using my Te I did try to hide it by acting very aloof/ shy/ I engaged in minimal conversation.

Depression and underdeveloped functions are not the same thing, but I don't see how acting aloof etc. was a use of Te. Sounds more like a use of Fi+Ne to put yourself in other people's shoes (other individuals I might add) and deciding that you didn't want to put them through the feelings that you perceived they would feel.*

*(On a side note for anyone who might be reading this and is suffering from depression themselves, to a degree I think that keeping it secret and pushing people away was probably the wrong choice. Nobody likes a whiner but talking openly and candidly about your problems with the people who care about you is an important part of building a support system to help you get through it. Btw, glad to hear you got through it foureyes).

I agree with the very last thing you said. For an ISFP their Se would prolly act the sameway.

Ah thanks, I'm still a little hazy on how Se works as a problem solving function whch is why i wasn't sure about that.

For the part before that, Fis know what they want very clearly in the short term, but in the long term they are as clueless as the rest.

I think there's a lot of truth in that, but I think saying "they know what they want for the short term" might be a bit more accurate, because I can be paralysed with indecision when someone expects me to make a quick-fire choice about something. I need time to process the options, whether I'm choosing something that's going to happen right away or something that's going to happen years from now.

Thanks for your post Defective Creative. Hope I made sense and that you can agree with me

Also, I've been having trouble acessing the other pages of this site for a while now and the only way I acessed this one to responnd was thru the history. I hope this problem will go away but if it doesn't and I dissapear suddenly from this site its because of computer troubles.

You're welcome, and don't worry about it, it's just a friendly exchange of ideas. Hope your computer issues sort themselves out.

 

[foureyes]

kay, first things first.
Defective Creative . . . I LOVE YOU! wow. I was not expecting such a long thoughtful and considerate response. When you took a really long time to reply I had started believing that you'd just decided to ignore what I'd said which is something that wouldn't have bothered me normally but I mean, coming from an INFP? that did feel a little ouch. But I just went ahead and responded to what you had said. and then I see your fantastically long response! (Yay!) My heart leapt.
So I'm sry for pretending like I knew what I was talking about before. I really no hardly anything at all about the technical side of Myers Briggs. Sorry for acting like I had a clue wha tI was talking about and being all arrogant and things. It seemed like a good idea at the time but I should have known better and I'm sry.
Your technical knowlege explanation all seems to check out from my very limited knowlege on the subject of the psychological inner workings of it all.
However, despite me agreeing with you on all that sort of thing which you were saying, I still cannot bring my self to agree with you on your basic point of Fis being more selfish. Actually I do think I sort of understand what your saying and I think I agree with you, My problem just lies in how yo u are saying it.
So let's see if I can sum it up in a way we can both agree on.
Kay here goes:
Your system for your introverted functions work to percieve things from your perspecitive while your extroverted functions work to percieve things from an outside perspective, like the world and other ppl. So with Fes when their seeing things from truly thier perspective they use their thinking function Ti while when Fis sre percieving things from truly there perspective they are using their feeling function.
So yes, I see what you mean why you'd percieve Fis as being more selfish and everything while Fes would naturally act more selfish for these reasons.
But the thing is though, that I don't know a single Fi that I would consider selfish unless they were going thru a trying emotional time because, I think most Fis sort of recognise this quality in themselves and then they go a bit over board trying to make up for it.
Even tho when you have a percieving function you like to keep your options open and don't like to make jugements and Fi = FP, there are still some conclusions that FPs can reach about their feelings when they are so strong and sure about them and feel they have enough knowlege to be sure enought to make a judgement, these judgements become a set of rights, an integrity that the Fi lives by and feels very strongly about. Things like help those who are worse off than you and war is disgusting and torture is repulsive and wrong . . . things like that. See an Fi (FP) understands things and feels for them by puuting themself in their shoes or the shoes of others and appreciating what things mean to the person, how it makes them feel ect.
So yeah. And so if the Fi hadn't developed their Te at all and wasn't using it to consider the other persons situation then yes they would be completely selfish. But I don't think I've ever know a time where that was the case because, for most Fis the concept of selfishness is a concept they feel negatively about as well as them usually being very empathetic and aware of the emotions of others around them. Fis can act selflessly too.
Okay, so yeah. That is O-fficialy the best way I can explain it. I think . . .
Btw I read your response and I agree with you. If I didn't make it so clear before. I know I didn't respond to this quoting and everything but I got everything that you said
Yeah, I'm still having those computer troubles but I guess I could use our other downstairs computer tho I really don't like that one as much because the whole house can walk by and watch what your doing. Humph.
BBYE!

 

[DefectiveCreative]

kay, first things first.
Defective Creative . . . I LOVE YOU! wow. I was not expecting such a long thoughtful and considerate response. When you took a really long time to reply I had started believing that you'd just decided to ignore what I'd said which is something that wouldn't have bothered me normally but I mean, coming from an INFP? that did feel a little ouch. But I just went ahead and responded to what you had said. and then I see your fantastically long response! (Yay!) My heart leapt.

Aww, you're welcome.

So I'm sry for pretending like I knew what I was talking about before. I really no hardly anything at all about the technical side of Myers Briggs. Sorry for acting like I had a clue wha tI was talking about and being all arrogant and things. It seemed like a good idea at the time but I should have known better and I'm sry.

I didn't think you were being arrogant, not at all. I just thought you were, well, wrong. :lol:

Your system for your introverted functions work to percieve things from your perspecitive while your extroverted functions work to percieve things from an outside perspective, like the world and other ppl. So with Fes when their seeing things from truly thier perspective they use their thinking function Ti while when Fis sre percieving things from truly there perspective they are using their feeling function.
So yes, I see what you mean why you'd percieve Fis as being more selfish and everything while Fes would naturally act more selfish for these reasons.

I remember reading a post once where an ESFJ was saying that they do come up with their own opinions on things, it's just that they aren't happy with it until it's been verified by an authority source that they trust.

I figured this was a function of Fe (coming up with an "other people" focussed opinion) and Si (looking for the external authority to okay it), but perhaps Ti plays a bigger role in that process than I thought.

It's something I'll have to think about.

But the thing is though, that I don't know a single Fi that I would consider selfish unless they were going thru a trying emotional time because, I think most Fis sort of recognise this quality in themselves and then they go a bit over board trying to make up for it.
Even tho when you have a percieving function you like to keep your options open and don't like to make jugements and Fi = FP, there are still some conclusions that FPs can reach about their feelings when they are so strong and sure about them and feel they have enough knowlege to be sure enought to make a judgement, these judgements become a set of rights, an integrity that the Fi lives by and feels very strongly about. Things like help those who are worse off than you and war is disgusting and torture is repulsive and wrong . . . things like that. See an Fi (FP) understands things and feels for them by puuting themself in their shoes or the shoes of others and appreciating what things mean to the person, how it makes them feel ect.
So yeah. And so if the Fi hadn't developed their Te at all and wasn't using it to consider the other persons situation then yes they would be completely selfish. But I don't think I've ever know a time where that was the case because, for most Fis the concept of selfishness is a concept they feel negatively about as well as them usually being very empathetic and aware of the emotions of others around them. Fis can act selflessly too.

I think you're almost exactly right on this. Most Fi types are healthy and developed enough to recognise this potential pitfall in themselves and therefore make an effort to see things from other people's perspectives (when it's used right Fi+Ne can be particularly effective at this).

If we stick with INFPs as an example ('cause I understand them better, for obvious reasons), unhealthy or less developed INFPs have a habit of using Ne to generate ideas and gather information that supports the judgements that Fi has already made. This can lead them to be incredibly closed-minded, as the only opinions that matter to them are the ones that agree with their own (a form of selfishness).

Healthier/more developed INFPs on the other hand recognise this potential problem in themselves and therefore make an effort to use Ne to generate ideas and gather information that they then use to inform the judgements that Fi makes. This naturally involves seeing things from other people's perspectives and the more you do it the more selfishness goes out the window, as seeing things from another's perspective and being selfish are mutually exclusive (because selfishness is all about seeing things only from your own perspective).

Where I'd disagree with you though is that Fi types use Te to see things from another's perspective.

The two types of cognitive function are "judging" and "perceiving".
The "perceiving" functions are Ne, Se, Ni and Si. They are used to gather and generate information about, well, everything.
The "judging" functions are Te, Fe, Ti and Fi. They are used to make either objective or subjective judgements about the information that the perceiving functions bring to them.

Seeing things from another's perspective is a way of gathering information, any judgements made about it are made only after the information has been gathered. Therefore it must be that seeing things from another's perspective requires the use of a perceiving function. In the case of Fi types that would usually be Ne or Se.

Btw I read your response and I agree with you. If I didn't make it so clear before. I know I didn't respond to this quoting and everything but I got everything that you said
Yeah, I'm still having those computer troubles but I guess I could use our other downstairs computer tho I really don't like that one as much because the whole house can walk by and watch what your doing. Humph.
BBYE!

Yeah it's okay, I got that you were agreeing with me for the most part. As for using the other computer, if anyone asks what you're doing tell them that you're developing a greater understanding of both yourself and the rest of the human race. Should give them pause for thought.

 

[foureyes]

So yes, I see what you mean why you'd percieve Fis as being more selfish and everything while Fes would naturally act more selfish for these reasons.

lol I meant to have typed selfless inplace of the second selfish. lol whoops. That's a pritty big typo that completely changes what I was trying to say.
But whatever I think we both get what were trying to say, the ? is if whether the Fes out there understand. And even if they don't I don't think it all that critical that they do. I think any differences between Fi and Fe are insignificant when compared to their similarities or maybe I just give up on trying to explain it but wanted this exchange to have a happy ending . . . either way

 

[frozen_water]

Thank you... this has been informative. It's tough to say anything about all that in such a short time (class in 10 minutes), but defective, your responses in particular helped me a lot. I'm totally gonna go write up my Fi-description, for the cognitive functions thing I'm doing, when my classes end today. The last time I tried, I just offended this other INFP and quickly took it down before anyone else got confused, in case I was legitimately wrong, haha. I think I'm ready to give it another shot now, though.