I need a female's perspective

[Morgain]

I'm 19 and i have the same problem. Billy is right and this is something that I have been realizing lately: i am way to passive and subtle. Women like men who take charge and have opinions. You suffer from nice guy syndrome like myself. You don't have to be a dick to get women, you just need to be more confident. For the record, this is one of those times where i know what to do about my situation but just don't do it So, everything I said above may be entirely false.

First of all, feelings change. People change, for better or worse.

I personally consider what a lot of IXFXs people (regardless of gender) have to grow is strength of character. The backbone to stand up to what you're believing -- and withstanding all the implications and consequences.

An INTJ friend of me call it 'integrity'.

Because when we start doubting about ourselves, what do we have?

I agree to this. I have been wondering why I can't fall in love with the nice guy. I think a lack of strength and an overflow of feelings of self doubt has a lot to do with it. I'm very sensitive and I have enough issues of self doubt myself. I don't need to be aware of all the self doubt and worries of the guy. I want him to stand on his own feet and deal with his own issues himself instead of leaning on me. At least at the first date. I really don't like to know all his issues and doubts right on the first date. That will definetely make me not attracted to him.
I think like all women I'm searching for stability and security first and when that need is met I can handle emotional overflow

 

[jn56uytrx]

We're speaking on different levels here. Honesty is essential to a happy relationship - there's no doubt about it. What I was talking about is that honesty alone does not get a girl. I have to do a lot more before laying my cards on the table.

If I would simply walk up to a girl - does not matter if she's a stranger or a friend - and start talking about my feelings, in most cases she'll creep out. I have to build a comfort zone first. I have to make sure that she's at least interested in a possible relationship - it means reading the signs, body language. A lot of guys make a mistake of rushing in too soon with their emotional baggage.

If you do not believe me then how do the bad boys can ever get a girl? They are not the epitomes of honesty at all.

That's just a mistranslation from my side. I did not mean "act" as faking. My intention was to use as declaring, stating, displaying.

I think I get what you're saying here about engaging in behavior that is appropriate for the social context and how that is different earlier in a new potential relationship then in a later, more developed one. Fair enough. Though just to be clear, to me that does not delineate a time when honesty is appropriate and one where it is not. It just means being conversationally and relationally receptive to your partner, while still being honest about your experience.

I'm troubled by some language used. Girls are not something to be got. Relationship is not a conquest. It is a mutually decided upon agreement between two people.

This may simply be a language interpretation issue, but it may be something deeper and more foundational to your interaction style. If so, and you are having difficulty with making or sustaining relationship with women, I would suggest looking at how you view women and whether you see them as something to be won or as people with the right to make free choices; choices you respect and honor even if they are in contrast with what you would like to see happen. If a person thinks they can control others engagement through how they choose to engage, I think they are likely headed into some degree of relational dysfunction.

 

[88chaz88]

Maybe INFJ men are overlooked for not being shallow enough.

Actually INFJ men are usually overlooked for being gay.

Serious reply: INFJs are generally unassertive, this makes picking up women rather difficult.

 

[Korg]

We're speaking on different levels here. Honesty is essential to a happy relationship - there's no doubt about it. What I was talking about is that honesty alone does not get a girl. I have to do a lot more before laying my cards on the table.

If I would simply walk up to a girl - does not matter if she's a stranger or a friend - and start talking about my feelings, in most cases she'll creep out. I have to build a comfort zone first. I have to make sure that she's at least interested in a possible relationship - it means reading the signs, body language. A lot of guys make a mistake of rushing in too soon with their emotional baggage.

If you do not believe me then how do the bad boys can ever get a girl? They are not the epitomes of honesty at all.

Explaining this in full would require an amount of time and a medium of interaction that falls way outside the scope of this forum. But just to give a really brief summation:

Honesty isn't a strategy, okay? It's not part of a transaction between you and a woman whereby you "get" something you want from her in exchange for offering something of yours. Honesty is something that's part of who you are and it's completely independent of circumstances or results. You aren't giving her value, you are value. Period. But the only way for you to truly know that and believe that is to experience it for yourself by living life from your core self for a while. Once you've done that, you won't go up to her and start "talking about your feelings." You'll go up to her and just be. That's it.

And that's what I mean by honesty - it's knowing that place inside of you where your deepest truths reside and drawing from it in everything you do. Will she like it? Will she hate it?...who cares? It's not a question that should even enter your mind. You're just you. The end. Once that happens, you can probably go up to her and talk about anything at all and she'll smell the strength behind the words and be attracted to you.

As far as bad boys, girls don't like them because they're honest. Girls like them because they have something that allows them (girls) to be girls at a more fundamental level. You'd be amazed at what that entails but no girl is going to be that way with some guy who doesn't seem like he can handle it.

 

[Billy]

We're speaking on different levels here. Honesty is essential to a happy relationship - there's no doubt about it. What I was talking about is that honesty alone does not get a girl. I have to do a lot more before laying my cards on the table.

If I would simply walk up to a girl - does not matter if she's a stranger or a friend - and start talking about my feelings, in most cases she'll creep out. I have to build a comfort zone first. I have to make sure that she's at least interested in a possible relationship - it means reading the signs, body language. A lot of guys make a mistake of rushing in too soon with their emotional baggage.

If you do not believe me then how do the bad boys can ever get a girl? They are not the epitomes of honesty at all.



That's just a mistranslation from my side. I did not mean "act" as faking. My intention was to use as declaring, stating, displaying.

Honesty is NOT enough to "get" the girl, this is true, but no one ever said it was or that honesty entitled you to whatever female of your choosing.

Honesty is a good policy because it allows you to be CLEAR, in essence, to not waste time. Nice guys who don't profess their feelings are IMO idiots because:

1. they waste their time. They're so insecure they need to revert to manipulation to attempt to steal affection from the object of their desire, this is both inefficient and pathetic.

2. manipulative, they talk shit about "bad boys" but in all honest are just being haters because they envy what the "bad boys" have, the girl they want and the balls to make that situation possible.

In any event the bad boys are more honest then the nice guys most of the time, because they are just who they are, and thats why they win out. Its easier to love a jerk then it is to love a liar.

 

[Wyote]

Its easier to love a jerk then it is to love a liar.

Are INFJs -as a type- more prone to being liars than jerks, as compared to other types?

(bringing it back on topic a bit)

 

[Gaze]

being a good friend and trusted confidant is a good thing, but it's not the only thing which is needed in a relationship. I think you may be afraid of asserting yourself because you're thinking more about what you want to be for her, and not what you want for yourself. You want more for yourself and that's fine. the more you let the other person dictate, untentionally or indirectly, what you should have the right to have or what you should ask for, then it's not truly equally. Be with someone who respects your relationship needs and thinks they are important. Someone who keeps taking and doesn't think about the impact it has on their partner is not likely to be a consistent and committed partner in the long term. In other words, your romantic partner should see you as a complete person, friend and romantic interest, not just a friend. True partners will respect you as a partner but you have to assert yourself as someone who is not there to simply be a friend. You have to be confident in the idea that you have more to offer than friendship and feel deserving of more than friendship.

 

[Billy]

Are INFJs -as a type- more prone to being liars than jerks, as compared to other types?

(bringing it back on topic a bit)

I can only speak for myself... I have been both a liar and a jerk.

I find that when I want something to matter, or something DOES matter I will be much less cavalier with the truth, and the subjective twisting of it, because I don't want to remember all my lies and maintain them.

However, I fully admit, when I find that something has no future to me, and I don't care enough about it, I will typically lie more, hold more of myself back and let other people live out a delusion since there are less consequences.

 

[ZenCat]

My sense is that for there to be true and deep intimacy, there has to be a willingness to be truly vulnerable. I think that's really hard for infj's in general.

So insightful. I would add, from my own experience, that a willingness to allow ourselves to be vulnerable might be fortified by trying to cultivate an ability to forgive ourselves for allowing ourselves for being vulnerable.

Despite widespread belief that vulnerability is a "weakness", I don't believe this to be the case. We do not need to be injured by our own vulnerability, if we embrace it as a beautiful, tender part of ourselves. We should not be keeping score against ourselves, or even against those potential partners who don't fulfill our expectations of them. When chemistry fails to materialize, it is rarely someone's "fault".

Remaining open to the possibility of a fulfilling, meaningful relationship is a hopeful, positive thing. Because it has not occurred yet, does not mean it won't. And it doesn't mean that it's your "fault".

Be yourself. Respect yourself and others, and love will be drawn to you.

 

[Arsal]

Are INFJs -as a type- more prone to being liars than jerks, as compared to other types?

I would think it's common for INFJs to be liars, but in the sense that its difficult for them to differentiate between who they are, and who they want to be. Other types seem to have less of a problem with accepting their flaws. INTJs and INFJs both, I'd think, are prone to this behavior.

--------

+1 on honesty advice. It won't get you everything, but it's going to save you a lot of mental anguish to be honest with yourself and everyone else around you than to sit passively and wait for things to work out by themselves.

 

[Trifoilum]

Exactly.

Tamagochi,
Honesty doesn't make life easier, it makes it real. And you owe it to yourself to labor under whatever discomfort honesty brings you in order to be a man that is trustworthy - if for no other reason than for the women in your life. They're going to rely on you and want to be vulnerable to you. Honesty makes that a good experience instead of a nerve racking one.

+1.

In cases of relationship, another way of looking at it is that honesty is the best defense; you don't waste time nor effort at unexpected places.
For INFJ, theoretically being honest (and vulnerable as discussed below) is one of our best growth potential in relationships (irregardless of gender, or sexual orientation).
It also saves time and effort too -- So we may found someone who likes us for who we are, and not what we -do-.

Honesty is something that's part of who you are and it's completely independent of circumstances or results. You aren't giving her value, you are value. Period. But the only way for you to truly know that and believe that is to experience it for yourself by living life from your core self for a while. Once you've done that, you won't go up to her and start "talking about your feelings." You'll go up to her and just be. That's it.

And that's what I mean by honesty - it's knowing that place inside of you where your deepest truths reside and drawing from it in everything you do. Will she like it? Will she hate it?...who cares? It's not a question that should even enter your mind. You're just you. The end. Once that happens, you can probably go up to her and talk about anything at all and she'll smell the strength behind the words and be attracted to you.

+1 too. The order is very important.

Without honesty at the beginning, you're wooing with all your actions.
With honesty at the beginning, you're proving your extent of seriousness.

Even bad boys are, in a meta kind of way, being honest; they didn't hide their actions, behaviors, nor attitude.

 

[aeon]

Despite widespread belief that vulnerability is a "weakness", I don't believe this to be the case.

I don

 

[ZenCat]

I don

 

[FamineGT]

Are INFJs -as a type- more prone to being liars than jerks, as compared to other types?

(bringing it back on topic a bit)

I can be both as well.

I tend to fall in the 'liar' category when I want to fit in a certain situation. Usually those moments end up in regret and beating up myself internally for not being true to myself.

I'm more of a jerk when I want to be alone or need to get my own personal needs done first. This may not be a bad thing, but some of the jerk-ness does come through during those times.

 

[Tamagochi]

As far as bad boys, girls don't like them because they're honest. Girls like them because they have something that allows them (girls) to be girls at a more fundamental level. You'd be amazed at what that entails but no girl is going to be that way with some guy who doesn't seem like he can handle it.

And that's what I was pointing at. There are certain things that send a powerful message to any hetero girl. They can be genuine or they can be faked - and a lot of men do fake and abuse them.

I think honesty as concept is especially important to all NF types. But the trap is that one can over-rely on it. And that was the story of mine. For a long time I thought that all I ever needed is just to be myself and love would magically appear in my life. Of course it did not happen that way Things have improved only when I started focusing on what women actually need and changed myself to provide it. But my initial failure was not because of me being dishonest or all the girls I tried to date being unsuitable for me.

Honesty isn't a strategy, okay? It's not part of a transaction between you and a woman whereby you "get" something you want from her in exchange for offering something of yours. Honesty is something that's part of who you are and it's completely independent of circumstances or results. You aren't giving her value, you are value. Period. But the only way for you to truly know that and believe that is to experience it for yourself by living life from your core self for a while. Once you've done that, you won't go up to her and start "talking about your feelings." You'll go up to her and just be. That's it.

I wholeheartedly agree to this. Just note that when you do go to the girl and just be - you must have some value inside to offer. And what's valuable to you quite often is not valuable for her.

mattles gave an example for it: he has provided quite a lot to his girlfriend what is widely accepted as valuable (a job, a place to live) but obviously she needed something else otherwise she wouldn't have left.

 

[Elehal]

I'm married to an INFJ male. So, I don't find them unsuitable at all.
You just haven't found the right girl yet. But she's out there.

As cliched as this may sound, it's true. I'm a woman, but like you, have been through a series of unsatisfying relationships that ended very painfully. Right now I'm seeing someone who, for the first time in my life, I deeply connect with. We were friends for a year beforehand and were both in relationships, and so we got to know each other as 'just friends', but that didn't prevent the romantic attraction that grew between us, which we both tried to suppress. I think the main reason we connected so deeply is because we got to know each other as ourselves - we weren't trying to 'get' each other, we weren't playing roles, we weren't trying to be smart, suave, interesting, etc, etc. And for the record, he is a P-type and definitely didn't make any initial moves to get me interested. So if you're looking to really find someone, it will happen, eventually, as long as you act like yourself and not just how you think you should act.

Just a thought. But if you're looking to get somewhere from dating, you would probably want to take the advice of some people before me and put yourself out there *a little*. That doesn't mean tell your deepest secrets or anything, but let her know the way you feel about certain things that you feel are *you*, like... why do you like cats? (if you do), what kind of books do you like (not like genres, but what makes you really like a book- a way the characters interact, a certain kind of tragic event,...?), etc... so, information that shows what you're really like as a person without having to make yourself too vulnerable.

Hope all works out for you