If Christians were right, then all us Non Christians are screwed royally

[Flavus Aquila]

Right. All I was saying was any reasonable person would want to save their ass if it really was all true. Then again, what if heaven was just doing chants and worshipping Jesus all day.

What is worship, other than acknowledging, admiring and delighting in what is true, good and beautiful?

The worship of faith is different from the worship of heaven, in that here apparent goods are set aside (sacrificed) for the sake of an unseen good. In heaven the seen good surpasses and contains all created good "containing in itself all delight".

The pain of hell consists not principally in what the flames are, but rather in what they are not; that is, the principal suffering of hell is an eternity without an eternal good.

 

[Apone]

For some people, this is argument enough to believe in God… which is a dumb reason to believe.

I think it has already been said, but basically if there's no God and you live your life however you want, then you'll die happy (assuming other things don't stop you). If there is a God and it isn't vengeful and is full of love, then you'll be accepted by God no matter what you do. If there is a vengeful God/hell is real, etc.. then even if you are accepted, you're still stuck next to this vengeful presence for all eternity.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that if there is a God, it is directly concerned with any of our actions… I suppose it's possible that some sort of overbearing entity could be paying attention or judging us, but it is unlikely that such an entity would be omnipotent, no matter how powerful it is.

There are also plenty of reasons to believe that morality is a human invention, and not some sort of ultimate celestial law… and regardless, Christian morality isn't always rational enough to take seriously-- outside of its belief structure, numerous aspects of it fall apart in the same way fictional constructs fall apart if you try to see them in physical reality.

 

[SealHammer]

My own beliefs about God lie very much along the same lines as those espoused by Jacobi, and I agree with Apone's views on theism.
At its simplest, this is how I approach the "What if we're right?" question.

If, as Christians posit, men were created in the image of God, and as a man I am fully capable of loving and accepting my fellow humans unconditionally -- in spite of and even because of their manifold flaws or sins -- then so is God. If such is the case, I have no reason to fear God. And even if it did only love conditionally, I have no reason to fear it, as I believe I conduct myself in as right a manner as anyone could expect, bettering the environment and lives around me when I can and exercising self-restraint where I could be selfish and indulgent.

That is as much as any just God should ask of its creations.
If that same God threatens me with its omnipotence, swearing me to eternal damnation if I don't prostrate myself before it in petty displays of worship, I wish to have no part in its domain. It's no different than a group of children playing with one child's ball, and the child threatens to take his ball and go home if the group doesn't play by his rules. Such a God is nothing more than a dictator elevated, its sole power derived from the fear it instills in its subjects. I would not be party to its power-play, nor would I wish to spend any length of time at its side, let alone eternity.

 

[CuriousEn]

For some people, this is argument enough to believe in God… which is a dumb reason to believe.

I think it has already been said, but basically if there's no God and you live your life however you want, then you'll die happy (assuming other things don't stop you). If there is a God and it isn't vengeful and is full of love, then you'll be accepted by God no matter what you do. If there is a vengeful God/hell is real, etc.. then even if you are accepted, you're still stuck next to this vengeful presence for all eternity.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that if there is a God, it is directly concerned with any of our actions… I suppose it's possible that some sort of overbearing entity could be paying attention or judging us, but it is unlikely that such an entity would be omnipotent, no matter how powerful it is.

There are also plenty of reasons to believe that morality is a human invention, and not some sort of ultimate celestial law… and regardless, Christian morality isn't always rational enough to take seriously-- outside of its belief structure, numerous aspects of it fall apart in the same way fictional constructs fall apart if you try to see them in physical reality.

I don't have scientific full proof that there is a God like being. But you never know and the consequences are severe. But here is the thing. It's not as if a small group of crazy people on an island believe in God. The bible is the most famous book in the world. And sometimes for that very reason, you can't be pretentious and you must realize that there is always a possibility until you find out the truth.

Now people like Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort do seem convincing. I do not mean that they sound reasonable in any way. They don't have very good logic in my opinion. They make some good points, but those points to not justify that God can be proven, though they tried to convince us. But what's convincing to me is how they are totally logical in all other aspects of common sense and when it comes to the Christian God, they do seem as if they have accepted Christianity as truth, have taken the path of Jesus, and don't even have one doubt in the back of their minds. I really do think that they believe it fully. And that is what makes them convincing to me, not their actual logic.

 

[Apone]

I don't have scientific full proof that there is a God like being. But you never know and the consequences are severe. But here is the thing. It's not as if a small group of crazy people on an island believe in God. The bible is the most famous book in the world. And sometimes for that very reason, you can't be pretentious and you must realize that there is always a possibility until you find out the truth.

Some people don't think it's possible that massive amounts of people could ever be wrong, or that people who strongly believe something could ever be deceiving themselves. The problem is that most of us don't really know anything… and the people who do know things (relatively speaking), STILL probably know only very little when compared to everything that anyone could ever possibly know. I don't even think it's possible for the human brain to contain the amount of information necessary to know for certain that the universe is a certain way… you would have to change into some sort of higher being or I suppose extend into some sort of higher plain of existence… but then, things like that tend to be difficult or impossible to articulate in any meaningful way. If you know, chances are the way you know doesn't lend itself to interpretation and must be experienced… and even then, people are extremely prone to interpreting or remembering these kinds of experiences through the lens of their own beliefs, which corrupts them.

For that reason, the only honest answer you could ever give yourself on the subject of how things 'are' is 'I don't know'… and this is why every time I see someone claiming that they DO know, I'm certain that they're probably wrong.

And not having an answer is not and never will be the same as 'therefore, God'.

 

[CuriousEn]

Even if technically the Christianity God doesn't exist in the way that we know him to, there are still 2 possibilities I can think of that would still enable
a very similar setting. 1.) If we die and still gain a conscience, we can simply emerge into heaven, find a character who claims to be the creator, and name him Jesus. Or the 2nd possibility is that we are all part of a software program and our consciousness is simply stored in the data and when we die, we simply plug into the Heaven software where we do meet Jesus. And if that's the case if Jesus is another being inserted into the software like ourselves then technically you could in fact say that it is still Heaven. And according to your perception all the non believers who went somewhere else would seem like Hell to you, because compared to you, they are miserable and suffering

 

[hk427f3]

It's not as if a small group of crazy people on an island believe in God.

I really do think that they believe it fully. And that is what makes them convincing to me, not their actual logic.

The same can be said of many other religions, yet you don't seem to be worried about them. If only one of them can be right (let's leave it there, for simplicity's sake), each and all of them could be false. Why don't you reject Christianity, as you do with other religions?

By rejecting other religions, you are implying that religions can be false, in spite of what you have written above. Why not also Christianity? It seems like an unfair double standard. I kind of feel bad for Zoroaster and Mohammad.

 

[CuriousEn]

The same can be said of many other religions, yet you don't seem to be worried about them. If only one of them can be right (let's leave it there, for simplicity's sake), each and all of them could be false. Why don't you reject Christianity, as you do with other religions?

By rejecting other religions, you are implying that religions can be false, in spite of what you have written above. Why not also Christianity? It seems like an unfair double standard. I kind of feel bad for Zoroaster and Mohammad.

I agree with you. I used to dispute my friend when he would pressure me. I would ask, ''how do you know the other religions aren't right?'' He said that they are wrong and he feels sorry for them because they will perish, though admitted they may be great people, just not qualified. And then he would always pretentiously reiterate ''The Truth Hurts. That's how it is.'' And I would ask him how he knows for sure that he believes in the right god and his response would be, ''I know for a fact. I have FAITH I would be wiling to bet my whole life on it.'' Yet he has a history of flip flopping. At one time he started sinning deliberately and was mad at God for the stuff happening in life and I don't mean to say too much but he started blaspheming and engaging in homosexual activities. Then he was hurt when others in the church found out and he was infuriated and vowed never to get involved in those acts again. He said he was simply mad at God but learned and would never disobey the lord again.

 

[Apone]

Even if technically the Christianity God doesn't exist in the way that we know him to, there are still 2 possibilities I can think of that would still enable
a very similar setting. 1.) If we die and still gain a conscience, we can simply emerge into heaven, find a character who claims to be the creator, and name him Jesus. Or the 2nd possibility is that we are all part of a software program and our consciousness is simply stored in the data and when we die, we simply plug into the Heaven software where we do meet Jesus. And if that's the case if Jesus is another being inserted into the software like ourselves then technically you could in fact say that it is still Heaven. And according to your perception all the non believers who went somewhere else would seem like Hell to you, because compared to you, they are miserable and suffering

I can't follow anything you're saying here, and I've tried multiple times.

 

[Cornerstone]

In reference to the OP, we should be glad that they're not right then. About eternal damnation...

 

[Lerxst]

"If Christians were right, then all us Non Christians are screwed royally"

If I live my life the way I live my life, with the beliefs I have and I end up swimming in a lake of fire for all eternity... then Heaven is no place I would ever want to go. In the Christian afterlife, myself and people like me, will be the martyrs. We'll be the ones suffering for eternity, that the "good" Christians look down at and say, "But he/she was such a wonderful, loving, helpful person... how could they end up down there?!" and end up revolting, causing a civil war in Heaven.

It's a twisted irony that our exclusion from Heaven will cause those in Heaven to suffer. So why not practice tolerance and understanding while you're still on this Earth instead of regretting the decision to exclude millions after the fact for eternity?

 

[Morethanthisbody]

I know that a lot of you are thinking there is no way you're wrong. But then I realized that no matter what the odds were. If it were all true, then burning in hell for eternity would be no fun for anybody. Nobody could tolerate it. It would be the suffering of suffering. Just think about that setting for one minute. You cannot say it wouldn't phase you. It does concern me. My question to Christians is this. About 5 years ago, I attended church. I was open minded, I went with my born again christian friend. And I asked Jesus to forgive me. But I only half believed it. I mean I wasn't even questioning whether I believed it or not. At the time I just said whatever I believe anyone for the sake of it. So if it were all true and we do go to hell, would I be forgiven since I already asked for forgiveness? Or do you have to believe it 100 percent?

My other question to Christians is this. If you are already forgiven for all of your sins and you pleaded to Jesus, why must you go church still and pray? Why do you need to pray if you are already forgiven? Is it to socialize and eat with friends? Or be a part of something? Because I mean wouldn't you just be able to forgo it and watch football if you wanted to? All sins are forgiven once you asked right? Why does Jesus want you to constantly pray? Does he really need that?

Yup,you need to believe it 100 percent!Secondly,we still need to pray,read Bible,etc.because we stop doing it we'd lose Jesus from our focus and turn to the world.It's like you have a girlfriend or a boyfriend,and he/she moves on the other side of planet or far away from you- your feelings for her would eventually start fading ,right? You'd meet other girls,you'd have fun with your friends or your everyday life,you'd be busy- and she'd be the last thing on your mind! Same thing with God!

 

[sprinkles]

Yup,you need to believe it 100 percent!Secondly,we still need to pray,read Bible,etc.because we stop doing it we'd lose Jesus from our focus and turn to the world.It's like you have a girlfriend or a boyfriend,and he/she moves on the other side of planet or far away from you- your feelings for her would eventually start fading ,right? You'd meet other girls,you'd have fun with your friends or your everyday life,you'd be busy- and she'd be the last thing on your mind! Same thing with God!

Not everyone is so fair-weather. The idea that everyone is kind of makes a convenient excuse for people to remain that way, though.

It's kind of like "human nature" - something that few understand, yet many self perpetuate convenient myths about.

 

[CuriousEn]

Well Morethanthisbody I don't believe it all or not believe it either, but I did accept Jesus just in case and was open. And when I told my friend I'm not sure, he said that I'm already saved no matter what because I accepted Jesus. So as long as I go about my business, I would assume I'm insured, right? Even if I don't believe it 100 percent, I'm not against it any percent if it's true. So hopefully just staying neutral counts for all gods. In other words, I accepted Jesus at the time and am down with it if I found out I have to be. Is that sufficient? I'm against no good beliefs.

 

[88chaz88]

I'm an Atheist but I shall share with you a Bible passage I find quite beautiful.

[h=3]1 Corinthians 13[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]The Greatest Gift[/h]13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[SUP][a][/SUP] but have not love, it profits me nothing.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; [SUP]5 [/SUP]does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; [SUP]6 [/SUP]does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; [SUP]7 [/SUP]bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part and we prophesy in part. [SUP]10 [/SUP]But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Basically when we die we gain a higher understanding, and if we have love it is likely we shall be loved. So if any hateful Christian tells you that you'll burn in hell for not being Christian, feel safe in the knowledge that if, against all odds they were right in their faith, that if you have love then they're in more trouble than you are. For if we are Atheist or of any other faith, it is not because we reject God, we just haven't come to know God yet.

It's all bollocks of course, but I still like that passage.

 

[detectivepope]

If I am to burn, better make it worth it. I'd rather focus on life, rather than its end.

 

[Love_Conquers_All]

Well I was an atheist until the age of 19. When I opened my eyes to the reality of God I began to experience love, joy, and peace in a way I had never known. If you actually take the time to read the entire bible no matter how boring a lot of the old testament can be... You will start to see that the white bible is a gigantic love letter from God to us. As far as prayer and worship goes He only wants us to do these things if we want to. He wants us to have a personal relationship with Him and receive His love and love him back. He gave us all free will and He will never impose upon it no matter how much it grieves Him. Since the fall of Adam and Eve we are all prone to sin yet because of Him we have a conscience and can recognize that sin. Atleast until others or ourselves start to convince us that sin is not sin. But in the back of our minds whether or not we admit it we still know. If you ask Jesus to show you He is real in a way that will speak to your heart and are sincere He will do so. I apologize on behalf of all my brothers and sisters in the church who are still mislead and don't realize that we are to LOVE not reject or despise or outright hate others. Jesus died for everyone not just a select few. It really angers me how many Christians hate on other people for sinning when they still sin every day. I am no better than any of you it is only by the grace and mercy of God that I am alive today.

 

[Love_Conquers_All]

Whole* bible. eke that seems bad. Sorry I am on my cell phone I don't have a computer.

 

[AnimeGirl2501]

I am a Witch and I worship the Goddess Lilith.

I was once a Born Again Christian and followed the teachings of Jesus for ten years, I found most Christians to be greedy,selfish,corrupt, extremely hypocritical and didn't want to mix with the "under-classes".
Needless to say I felt completely let down and lost my faith as I could not accept that a loving God could allow the evils in this world to happen to innocent people,especially children.

So I left the church and denounced it. I've always been drawn to Wicaa/Witchcraft and to be honest I feel complete. There is no judgement of burning in an eternal fire, it is just rejoicing in Summerland when you pass from this world. I do however believe strongly in Karma and this keeps me in check and provides me with help when I struggle with a moral problem.

The Goddess created me and accepts me completely for who I am, she does not ask me to follow impossible rules, all she asks is to simply love and not to harm. The guilt from an Abrahamic God has died and I've been filled with a new life.

To me Christianity like all Abrahamic religions is to control the masses. I also fail to understand why people want to worship a God who endorses slavery,rape,child murder,paedophilia etc etc.

In my humble opinion Christianity and other Abrahamic religions are a plague and must be stopped,it has stopped human evolution and progression of our intellect for hundreds of years, it causes bigotry on a worldly scale.

So, meditate and follow your heart, the deity you wish to follow will reveal themselves to you. This is your spiritual path and yours alone. Do not be swayed by other men/women, it is your path to walk.

Blessed Be xx

 

[Love_Conquers_All]

I am a Witch and I worship the Goddess Lilith.

I was once a Born Again Christian and followed the teachings of Jesus for ten years, I found most Christians to be greedy,selfish,corrupt, extremely hypocritical and didn't want to mix with the "under-classes".
Needless to say I felt completely let down and lost my faith as I could not accept that a loving God could allow the evils in this world to happen to innocent people,especially children.

So I left the church and denounced it. I've always been drawn to Wicaa/Witchcraft and to be honest I feel complete. There is no judgement of burning in an eternal fire, it is just rejoicing in Summerland when you pass from this world. I do however believe strongly in Karma and this keeps me in check and provides me with help when I struggle with a moral problem.

The Goddess created me and accepts me completely for who I am, she does not ask me to follow impossible rules, all she asks is to simply love and not to harm. The guilt from an Abrahamic God has died and I've been filled with a new life.

To me Christianity like all Abrahamic religions is to control the masses. I also fail to understand why people want to worship a God who endorses slavery,rape,child murder,paedophilia etc etc.

In my humble opinion Christianity and other Abrahamic religions are a plague and must be stopped,it has stopped human evolution and progression of our intellect for hundreds of years, it causes bigotry on a worldly scale.

So, meditate and follow your heart, the deity you wish to follow will reveal themselves to you. This is your spiritual path and yours alone. Do not be swayed by other men/women, it is your path to walk.

Blessed Be xx

I too was drawn to witchcraft when I was younger. My mother is Wiccan and I was also used in Satanic Rituals when i was a baby. I am appalled by your experience with Christians and apologize on their behalf. If other Christians were to read the Bible and what it actually says they would behave a lot differently. I have had many spiritual experiences in my life and seen some very dark things. God does not endorse evil. He gave all people free will and He will not impose Himself on us. He does not go against His own Word. The thing is people are flawed and prone to sin. Yet if we follow Christ and have a real relationship with Him. We begin to change and be transformed into creations of Love. I had never experienced as much depths of Love and Joy in my life until I chose to follow Christ at the age of 19. This experience changed me and I have developed into a much more compassionate, forgiving, caring, and non-judgemental person since. It is my sincere prayer that Jesus will speak to you on a personal level and show you just how much He Loves and cares for you! I apologize if this message offends you, I am just expressing what I hold near and dear to my heart.