- MBTI
- ENTJ
- Enneagram
- Type me.
Conciseness is overrated. Sometimes you need to take your time and revel in the ownage for as long as you can make it last.
I'm thinking of becoming religious
- Thread starter Quinlan
- Start date
Conciseness is overrated. Sometimes you need to take your time and revel in the ownage for as long as you can make it last.
Barnabas
Time Lord
- MBTI
- wiblywobly
- Enneagram
- timeywimey
there is a reason why i said partially,in the case of the U.S.
secondly, I believe that all people seek their freedom. However only Christians find it.
Duty
Permanent Fixture
- MBTI
- INTP
- Enneagram
- 5w4
Freedom from what?
- MBTI
- iNfj
- Enneagram
- 9w1
Christianity equals freedom?????? Isn't EVERY parable and story in the bible about following gods will, no matter what? Isn't Christianity all about following gods will exactly as he says it, without hesitation or question? That's not freedom, my friend. Freedom is actually being able to choose what you do, without having/needing anybody (including divinity) tell you what to do.
Rudy
Regular Poster
- MBTI
- INfJ
Ugh! This one is irritating, for two reasons.
One, there were a number of secularists working on the Civil Rights movement long before people like King came onto the scene.
A. Philip Randolph comes to mind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._Philip_Randolph
People like this, and the important contributions they made to the Civil Rights movement, are airbrushed from history because of the fanatical focus on Martin Luther King, Jr., to the exclusion of all others. This is not to downplay King, only to point out that he was not the one and only face of the Civil Rights movement.
Second, if the cherrypicking that some Christians would like to do. "Oh, look, there were Christians that supported Civil Rights." Wow, so what? There were plenty that opposed it as well, and many of them based their opposition in their Christian faith, quoting passages from the Bible. Before that, Christianity was used to justify slavery for millions of people. Who is to say which is the more faithful Christian? At the time, the interpretation of the Bible seemed perfectly reasonable to most people. It's only as our innate sense of decency gradually began to rebel that people started to re-interpret the Bible to fit with their inherent morality.
Please, oh please, explain this one to me.
First, to bring out the Treaty of Tripoli, as signed by John Adams: "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion..."
Second, I note that a number of the "founding fathers" were not Christian (Jefferson, Franklin and Paine were Deists for sure, others may have been as well.
Thirdly, while I gladly admit that a number of the country's framers were Christian, this is nowhere near sufficient to argue that the United States is a product of Christianity.
Haven't seen any evidence of this one yet. Still waiting, but I'm always disappointed.
I'll grant there is a lot of truth to this.
Okay, how am I a result of Christianity? I can see, how in your worldview, I am a product fashioned by God, but that's different than being a result of the religion itself.
Unfortunately this is not true, in either respect. A great number of people prefer to find solace in easy, absolutist answers rather than face the great uncertainty that is life. Doubt is not a pleasant state, but certainty is an absurd one.
Barnabas
Time Lord
- MBTI
- wiblywobly
- Enneagram
- timeywimey
what do you find your self a slave to?
- MBTI
- iNfj
- Enneagram
- 9w1
oh, because going to church every week for 18 years, and reading sizable chunks (sadly, I can't honestly say whole, but I'm close) of the bible isn't enough?
but, in case I have somehow missed something, I beg you, prove me wrong! I would hate to go around spreading a falsehood.
Barnabas
Time Lord
- MBTI
- wiblywobly
- Enneagram
- timeywimey
this answer is two-fold
You cannot deny that the Church and Christian led organizations did not dramatically affect the U.S. civil rights movements. King and the SCLC were the face of the movement.
This is simple, Christianity does not support slavery. Those who speak for it are preachers of no gospel. Secondly biblical OT slavery was nothing close to the slavery of today. There were strict laws protecting slaves and rules regarding there release after a time of about seven years.
but don't argue with me argue with the Bible.
Exodus 21:1-4, Deuteronomy 15:12-18, Exodus 21:7, Exodus 21:20-21, Exodus 21:26-27, Leviticus 25:44-46, Leviticus 25:48-53, Genesis 17:13, Genesis 17:27, Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Deuteronomy 20:14, Deuteronomy 20:14, Deuteronomy 23:15-16, Numbers 31:28-47, Mark 14:66, Exodus 21:8, Leviticus 25:39, Exodus 21:16, Deuteronomy 24:7, II Kings 4:1, Exodus 20:10, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:28, Colossians 3:11
It speaks for itself.
Go back farther to the colonies there you will find your answer.
Christians don't make up just the frame of the country but instead the entire body.
The structure, Organs, blood. Christians make made up the Country not just it's head.
You could wait, but I urge you to make a decision. It is no good to be warm, either be hot or cold, but not warm.
Let's for the arguments sake say that God does exist, you are his creation and he is the Judeo-Christian God.
then you must recognize that you are God's creation and that your life will be a direct result of your choice of following God and therefor a indirect result of the religion itself.
This is a joke. All men seek truth, regardless of there world view. In fact because there are world views there must be a truth sought after. Even the belief in no truth sets the precedent that it is true that there is no truth.
And as we know truth will set you free.
Duty
Permanent Fixture
- MBTI
- INTP
- Enneagram
- 5w4
1. Archaic Judeo-Christian "ethical" rules which constantly keep certain freedoms from being exercised by myself and others.
2. Reactionary conservative Christo-political groups which work hard to take away many freedoms, encourage war with countries that espouse different religious values, etc. These people stopped stem cell research for really no reason other then religious disgust...those cells were showing extreme promise in many fields of medical research. And that's just one example...
Barnabas
Time Lord
- MBTI
- wiblywobly
- Enneagram
- timeywimey
1) what archaic rules do you speak of and how do they hinder you?
2)"Christo-political" don't play politics. Bible doctrine does not encourage war, does not take away freedoms,and does not speak on stem cell research. The fear of stem cells is (a) political (b) ignorance (c) preservation of a sacred life.
(C) is the only one I'm concerned with, though to my knowledge most stem cell growth is coming from petri dishes, so long as you not taking the life of a unborn child it does not bother me, which goes back to (b)
- MBTI
- iNfj
- Enneagram
- 9w1
1) I never called myself christian, I only said I know a good bit of christian teachings and dogma. I know there is a whole lot more to being christian than going to church and reading (like, you know, actually believing what you hear, which I don't [and I also understand your frustration. I too get pissed off "christians" who don't really believe or participate as they're supposed to as christians. I would prefer them call themselves agnostics, and for the percentages of members in a religion to actually represent believers {sorry, but it is my dream to see the church dwindle and pretty much disappear, and the first step to this is for people to identify correctly.}.].).
2)I have read from both, but more heavily out of the OT. However, I have had much more of the NT read to me in church, so I think that kind of balances it (I was raised to be Catholic, but I have had experience through freinds of the other denominations).
3) Jesus died "for our sins."
NOT
"for out freedom."
what were our sins? As I understand it, they were ALL transgressing the will of god. god told us to do one thing, and we did another. So, in order for him to forgive us, and hopefully follow his will more exactly, he sent his son as an example, and had his son die so that he could take our sins with him into death (then he rose again, supposedly leaving our sins in death [or something along those lines, I still don't understand how that all worked. Having humans kill another {an atrocity in my view and christians alike}, and that somehow makes up for our other atrocities. huh?]).
Still, the point remains that god wants us to follow what he says without question or hesitiation. Christian perfection is giving your will completely over to god. Freedom is having your own will in entirety, and not having to obey any other being (be it devine or otherwise).
Duty
Permanent Fixture
- MBTI
- INTP
- Enneagram
- 5w4
Christianity's outdated rules have been used to deny/remove rights from groups such as gays (the most recent scam), pagans/perceived pagans (witch hunt anyone? it is said in Exodus to not suffer a sorcerer to live), atheists (such as atheists not being allowed to claim conscientious objector status for the longest time..."godless men cannot have morals"), blacks (the bible has been used to justify slavery) and so on.
And I would predict your response to be, "Well, those people were misinterpreting the bible, it actually says 'X.'" Sorry, that doesn't fly. If your holy book can not be translated unambiguously then there is an enormous problem. I don't understand how a book "inspired by God" could be so misunderstood...you would think God would be a better writer.
The problem with religion is it really has no objective, unambiguous standard to adhere too. If scientists have a dispute, they turn to the scientific method to solve it. If mathematicians have a dispute they turn to the rules of logic. Even philosophers have an objective standard to turn to: which is also logic. Showing your opponent's position to be contradictory to itself or in contradiction to a very obvious and intuitive "axiom" means his argument must be edited or even dropped.
The only thing Christians have freedom from is an objective, unambiguous, reasonable standard to live by. You have thousands of different bible interpretations. To compound things, you have all these religions claiming absolute and unchanging truth. As in...it is already discovered, we can't be wrong about it, and we won't change our minds given new evidence.
It's unhealthy. To me it's obviously unhealthy. Statistics even support this. US population of Christians is about 70%. US population of atheists is between 8-16% depending on how you define "atheist." US prison population of people who claim Christianity as their religion: right on target, about 70%. Prison population of those who call themselves atheists: about 0.16%...at the most generous (to the opposing side) estimate, atheists are underrepresented in prison populations 50 times less then they should be.
Numerous studies have been done showing an obvious correlation between societies with high religiousity and high dysfunction (higher crime rates, more war, more suicides, etc), and a correlation between high non-belief and much lower dysfunction (lower crime, war, suicide, etc).
I'm just ranting by now, but I find it stupendous to even assert only Christians find freedom. If you're talking about freedom from objective reason, freedom from need to follow logic, freedom from introspection...then maybe I'd concur.
Barnabas
Time Lord
- MBTI
- wiblywobly
- Enneagram
- timeywimey
Feel free to rant, you need to get it off your chest. It's not wise to bottle it up. Don't worry I can take it.
1) guess what I'm going to tell you? Bible doctrine, people aren't misinterpreting the bible because they can't understand it. They interpret the Bible so that it fits there agenda, they use an eisegetical approach so that they make scripture look as they want it to. You must instead use the exegetical approach of only seeking what the Bible writers and author meant.
It is along the line of saying that the inventor of the shovel is to be blamed if some one steals it and kills a person with it. What the inventor planned for making life better some one has used to destroy life.
2) read leviticus and Deuteronomy and tell me there is and just about any of the epistles. Then tell me that there is no objective standard, trust me the writers are incredibly clear. It is what frightens people the most about religion in general, the standard. the thought that you don't answer solely to yourself or your peers but instead to a almighty being who has the power and the right to judge you and find you guilty because of the holy nature of the being.
3) those with greater sin realize there greater need for God.
but on a less theological note. We know that mainly the highly educated turn to atheism and that the undereducated turn to crime. so tell me is it the fault of God that his followers are sinful creatures or the fault of men for not teaching them better.
4) you still do not understand freedom. Truly I say to you life is more then what you see.
Solar Empath
Community Member
- MBTI
- INFJ
I try to stay out of these things but you hit a button.
No, it isn't the 'standard': it's the hate.
Hey Gays: Change or GOD will fry you. He will fry you long and fry you hard.
And by the way, The Bible says I should kill you now, but I won't. Aren't I nice? Oh and by the way, God Loves You!
Hey Witches: Change or GOD will fry you. He will fry you long and fry you hard.
And by the way, The Bible says I should kill you now, but I won't. Aren't I nice? Oh and by the way, God Loves You!
You can't believe in God unless God causes you to believe and if you don't, you fry forever.
Fry Fry Fry.
That's why. Not hard rules. Your God is frying my mother right now according to you. She was a good person but she wasn't a Christian: she's frying forever, And Your Religion Says She Deserves It.
PS I like you. I think you are a good person. But I sincerely detest the religion you hold because of the burning forever based on religious beliefs. I like the love parts. I believe in those. But I will not convert because of the above.
Barnabas
Time Lord
- MBTI
- wiblywobly
- Enneagram
- timeywimey
I try to stay out of these things but you hit a button.
No, it isn't the 'standard': it's the hate.
Hey Gays: Change or GOD will fry you. He will fry you long and fry you hard.
And by the way, The Bible says I should kill you now, but I won't. Aren't I nice? Oh and by the way, God Loves You!
Hey Witches: Change or GOD will fry you. He will fry you long and fry you hard.
And by the way, The Bible says I should kill you now, but I won't. Aren't I nice? Oh and by the way, God Loves You!
You can't believe in God unless God causes you to believe and if you don't, you fry forever.
Fry Fry Fry.
That's why. Not hard rules. Your God is frying my mother right now according to you. She was a good person but she wasn't a Christian: she's frying forever, And Your Religion Says She Deserves It.
PS I like you. I think you are a good person. But I sincerely detest the religion you hold because of the burning forever based on religious beliefs. I like the love parts. I believe in those. But I will not convert because of the above.
See you have become the result of faulty teaching and what possibly could be those who have treated the Bible as a base for the racism and other evils.
first off I would like to make the statement that Fire in the bible is highly symbolic, it's used in the sense of destroying the old and revealing the new (not always though, seek only what the writer of the text meant. when Elijah called fire down from heaven. That was real).
Next lets address this "You can't believe in God unless God causes you to believe and if you don't"- that is Calvinism, I am am not a Calvinist No where in the scripture is this found to be true. any one can choose to believe or not, God doe not hinder them or stop them. that is infact why we have so many world views and religions. Because does not prevent you from believing that way. God wants you to choose him,not to force you to love him.
As I mentioned earlier Your afterlife, Holy City or being outside it's gates.
Is your choice and your choice alone. Your not condemned by God but by yourself.
I can't stress this enough in these times. when there are almost as many different churches as there are different Christians. Do not look to your peers for what the Bible says but instead read the book and see for your self. do not take it out of context and don't begin with an agenda.
This world has scars from a foolish generation who thought they could handle leading the church instead of following it. Look what has happened the fault is not God's nor the Bible but those who wish to control both.
Those who see the truth have not tried it and found it wanting but instead found it hard and untried.
See I love you, you are a part of my beloved family. Just as your mother deserves Hell so do you. And so do I. In fact every poster on this board and person on this planet deserves nothing less the the unrelenting wrath of God.
Yet he has told us that he loves us. His rebellious, murderous, deceitful and destructive children. And he loves you.
I can't make this anymore real, I beg you listen to me I deserve to have bean left dying in a ditch while God moved to any other person. Yet he stopped for me, he cleaned my wounds and said you are forgiven.
You don't have to hurt, things don't have to be this way. there is a God who loves you, who will provide for you. A God willing to die for you.
Let him show you, let him cut through the darkness that has encompassed the world. He has come to make you righteous not by your own hand but by his grace.
Solar Empath
Community Member
- MBTI
- INFJ
I believe in God, but I do not believe in the God that proposes eternal punishment for people with good hearts. And yes I know about Lutheranism vs. Calvinism vs. Wesley's Methodism vs Etcetera. And I have in fact read the KJV from cover to cover, and I did it in less then a month. I have an entire shelf of my library devoted to Christian Theology. I've read Grudem (Yes Reformed Theology I know) and Ryrie and Sproul and Stott and Lewis.
I do not believe that Heaven's Gate is a litmus test. I believe that a Wiccan who loves people and tries their best to do right will be in heaven, not Burning, not Outside of the Gate, not In the Outer Darkness, not Annihilated. I understand you believe. I'm happy for you. But don't buy into the propaganda that unbelievers are all secretly running from The Truth.