INFJ's and being more present

Perseus Shield and Sword said:
I know this was a draining experienced thread, and not what I expected from my fellow INFJs. I represented a lone wolf spirit through out my entire life, seems I best operate when I am away from my own pack. As far as this forum goes, thanks, but no thanks.
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Hey, man, please stick around - I for one find your perspective a bit different and refreshing.

The issue is simply that you claimed 'Observing Ego' was science, and when you do that you invite a certain kind of dispassionate testing of theories according to 'objective' standards. You made a few claims that were demonstrably false, and I don't think we understood very well that you were just sharing your opinion as opinion rather than as fact.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
Hey, man, please stick around - I for one find your perspective a bit different and refreshing.

The issue is simply that you claimed 'Observing Ego' was science, and when you do that you invite a certain kind of dispassionate testing of theories according to 'objective' standards. You made a few claims that were demonstrably false, and I don't think we understood very well that you were just sharing your opinion as opinion rather than as fact.
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Well, I appreciate that, I usually don't let bruises keep me down for long...

Funny thing about the science of the mind, it's dealing with mostly an invisible energy, chemical reactions, electric impulses. The brain has enough electrical power to light up a flashlight, energy is both positive and negative poles. There's even different psychology camps like Freudian and Jungain. Doesn't seem like a solid science in the first place with competing schools of thought.

Observing Ego can be practiced until it's a habit, and turned on at will. Its another term for mindfulness. Just wanted to share a concept (O.E.) that has a profound impact and changed my life. Thanks.
 
Perseus Shield and Sword said:
Observing Ego can be practiced until it's a habit, and turned on at will. Its another term for mindfulness. Just wanted to share a concept (O.E.) that has a profound impact and changed my life. Thanks.
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No worries, man. I'm sure there are people who have already checked it out based on what you've shared. :blush:

But if you are ever in the mood for a rigorous scientific debate with no judgement, that's welcome, too.

What happened just seems like crossed wires to be honest, it happens sometimes, but that shouldn't keep us from connecting with our shared humanity.

Great to see you again!
 
Perseus Shield and Sword said:
Well, I appreciate that, I usually don't let bruises keep me down for long...

Funny thing about the science of the mind, it's dealing with mostly an invisible energy, chemical reactions, electric impulses. The brain has enough electrical power to light up a flashlight, energy is both positive and negative poles. There's even different psychology camps like Freudian and Jungain. Doesn't seem like a solid science in the first place with competing schools of thought.

Observing Ego can be practiced until it's a habit, and turned on at will. Its another term for mindfulness. Just wanted to share a concept (O.E.) that has a profound impact and changed my life. Thanks.
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If you want to talk about it some more, perhaps you'd like to create a thread about it? Somewhere all the information that is available can be gathered and reviewed to make a complete picture (ideally)?
Maybe you could explain and reconsile the competing theories/schools of thought?

I really am sorry about what happened, but I don't want to get into that occurrence any further in case something gets triggered. My previous offer still stands, whenever you want to take it up. Or don't, it's all fine. It's just that I understand how the bruises can become a wound bleeding internally if nothing is done about it, especially when you repeatedly find yourself in similar situations. But in all frankness, I believe I know what happened now and I'm sure it won't happen again (with me - I cannot speak for others).

When you say it's another term for mindfulness, I reason there must still be a difference with OE, so that it would create the need to distinguish them. Could you elaborate on that? If it's too complex to adress here (i.e. if the thread hasn't been derailed enough yet :grin:), perhaps that could be a starting point for the proposed thread.
 
Ginny said:
If you want to talk about it some more, perhaps you'd like to create a thread about it? Somewhere all the information that is available can be gathered and reviewed to make a complete picture (ideally)?
Maybe you could explain and reconsile the competing theories/schools of thought?

I really am sorry about what happened, but I don't want to get into that occurrence any further in case something gets triggered. My previous offer still stands, whenever you want to take it up. Or don't, it's all fine. It's just that I understand how the bruises can become a wound bleeding internally if nothing is done about it, especially when you repeatedly find yourself in similar situations. But in all frankness, I believe I know what happened now and I'm sure it won't happen again (with me - I cannot speak for others).

When you say it's another term for mindfulness, I reason there must still be a difference with OE, so that it would create the need to distinguish them. Could you elaborate on that? If it's too complex to adress here (i.e. if the thread hasn't been derailed enough yet :grin:), perhaps that could be a starting point for the proposed thread.
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Nope. Just wanted to share. It's out there now if anyone is interested in researching it on their own.
Since I'm new here, I think I'll just explore some of these posts later, and reply if I feel like it.
It's no big deal, just lazy when writing,.. not polishing up what I wrote. And if you've noticed, I do a lot of metaphors and simile, that in itself is open for misunderstanding... I just can't seem to not think metaphorically and logically.
I'm good, rather just drop it (Fe..)
 
Perseus Shield and Sword said:
Nope. Just wanted to share. It's out there now if anyone is interested in researching it on their own.
Since I'm new here, I think I'll just explore some of these posts later, and reply if I feel like it.
It's no big deal, just lazy when writing,.. not polishing up what I wrote. And if you've noticed, I do a lot of metaphors and simile, that in itself is open for misunderstanding... I just can't seem to not think metaphorically and logically.
I'm good, rather just drop it (Fe..)
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Fine :) It was just a suggestion *shrug*

Infjente said:
@Ginny how did you get a Ti like that? :flushed:
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I'm not sure my Ti changed at all - at least not according to my Keys 2 Cognition test :tearsofjoy:

It could be a few things, but I believe that working through my triggers has been the most helpful, as it was emotionally liberating and gave me the ability to use logic without feeling "getting in the way"*. It gave me the ability to apply certain rules of debate that I picked up from an ENTP. It certainly doesn't hurt that I have been increasingly interested in the topics of Theoretical Physics, Cosmology and QM for the past year and started to watch Quantum Physics lectures last month :sweatsmile:

*(use of Fi inhibits proper use of Ti, while you'd slip into Te instead and in us INFJs this is not a good thing at all)
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
That's interesting - how so?
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Well, you could claim that Te is the most unemotional judging function, even though paradoxically it is on one axis with Fi, which can almost be described as the embodiment of emotions. When INFJs get triggered, it is mostly for a reason that triggers an emotional reaction, like an attack on the sense of self, for instance. If (as an INFJ) you try to argue while in an emotional state such as that, Fi sort of overrides access to the front stack judging axis because access to it would presuppose engaging via Fe, but that is not happening with Fi running the show, so there is no function left but Te. However, since it's a function axis linking the functions inextricably, there will always be emotion misinforming/tingeing the arguments set by Te. In Te-front stack types there is still a veritable amount of control over these functions, thus they have an easier time of separating them consciously, but Fi in the shadow is more reactive and overwhelms easily if the emotion is violent/intense enough. Te is in even less control, being even lower in the stack (in what is called the Point of Least Resistance in socionics), so the INFJ is even less adept at using it properly unless they have consciously developed that function to some point of functionality (I'm not saying proficiency, but I'd say it's possible, if remotely so). You could say it's a manifestation resembling a perverted version of the person's usual thinking, only instead of using Ni and Ti to form a coherent and truthful narrative there is an explosive tirade (it needn't even be a complete tirade, actually), filled with emotional arguments pretending to be factual (because they don't want to be emotional, but they can't help it) when really it is a row of emotional judgements regarding them and the other person, based on Si (which is where truth has a highly subjective value). There may be coherence to it, but often there isn't.
 
Infjente said:
@Ginny How did you work through your triggers?
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I believe they key parts were self-affirmation and reconceptualisation via general insights, as well as some understanding involving the parts that didn't have to do with me, which again feeds into self-affirmation.*
It's like lying to yourself with Ni-truths regarding your Self, because triggers have something inherently Si-like.
In INFJs, and I guess other types as well, Si is dependent on Fi, so if you have been imbued with negative feelings towards yourself, which were soaked up by Si, it becomes a permanent damage that needs to be put right and Ni as a conscious function is more equipped to deal with it. There is some talk which says that Ni-doms use Si for Ni purposes, so when Si only sees the bad (as it was told to by Fe-Fi), it poisons Ni.

Well, at least that's the general part of it. In the practical sense, it becomes a more individualised approach based on what concepts and values you follow. It's a dangerous road too, because you might fall into another trap by not using the systems as a springboard but thinking instead that it's gospel truth. You need to realise the flaws of the concepts in order to see what it does and doesn't do. The MBTI is a good example of it, but it's not the only system.

*Psychologically, it is close to if not the same as NLP and taking advantage of neuroplasticity.
 
Ginny said:
I believe they key parts were self-affirmation and reconceptualisation via general insights, as well as some understanding involving the parts that didn't have to do with me, which again feeds into self-affirmation.*
It's like lying to yourself with Ni-truths regarding your Self, because triggers have something inherently Si-like.
In INFJs, and I guess other types as well, Si is dependent on Fi, so if you have been imbued with negative feelings towards yourself, which were soaked up by Si, it becomes a permanent damage that needs to be put right and Ni as a conscious function is more equipped to deal with it. There is some talk which says that Ni-doms use Si for Ni purposes, so when Si only sees the bad (as it was told to by Fe-Fi), it poisons Ni.

Well, at least that's the general part of it. In the practical sense, it becomes a more individualised approach based on what concepts and values you follow. It's a dangerous road too, because you might fall into another trap by not using the systems as a springboard but thinking instead that it's gospel truth. You need to realise the flaws of the concepts in order to see what it does and doesn't do. The MBTI is a good example of it, but it's not the only system.

*Psychologically, it is close to if not the same as NLP and taking advantage of neuroplasticity.
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You always make a lot of sense, Ginny, and what you say resonates with me a great deal.

You also triggered me into thinking about the idea of 'will' in terms of conscious self-creation, but I can't expand upon it right now as I really need to get to work :tearsofjoy:
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
You always make a lot of sense, Ginny, and what you say resonates with me a great deal.
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Thanks :) I do hope that the insights I have gained for myself can be of use to others as well.

Deleted member 16771 said:
You also triggered me into thinking about the idea of 'will' in terms of conscious self-creation.
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Indeed, there may be something to it. I think of will more like a tool, so yes, like some internal energy that is at our disposal to be used consciously. It can be used on the environment as well as the self, there is always a choice how you use it. I chose to use it on my self, to build something, rather than using it to shield myself from the influences of my environment. It is a mind game of sorts, wherein you develop your self as something separate from the environment, so that you can always engage with the environment without needing to be swayed by it. It's like you build a stable core within yourself that you always return to. However, as I had found that this core already existed (via various systems), I didn't need the systems anymore to know who I am, but they stayed with me as a shorthand, as a means to talk about it.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
Yeah, I refer to it as my steel core, which is a bit clichéd I suppose but I don't care. The part of you that is incorruptible and unmoved.
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I have a similar cliché - I use water-based metaphors mostly, something from astrology. And I believe you're an air sign, right? - that would also be consistent with your steel :)
 
Ginny said:
I have a similar cliché - I use water-based metaphors mostly, something from astrology. And I believe you're an air sign, right? - that would also be consistent with your steel :)
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Ha, that's interesting (that we might gravitate towards particular metaphors based upon sign). Yeah I'm Aquarius sun, Leo moon, Leo rising.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
Ha, that's interesting (that we might gravitate towards particular metaphors based upon sign). Yeah I'm Aquarius sun, Leo moon, Leo rising.
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Interesting... I'm wondering if that doesn't have implications as well, Leo as a fire sign... but not exactly. Sure, there is also something contributing to it, on the whole, but when we think of the Sun as the archetypical core self, not as the self that is seen (rising sign) or the inner/emotional self (Moon), then it remains as stated.
 
Perseus Shield and Sword said:
I represented a lone wolf spirit through out my entire life, seems I best operate when I am away from my own pack. As far as this forum goes, thanks, but no thanks.
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Hey man, I can relate with the lone wolf spirit thing as I've been a loner most my life. The strong and quiet kind. Guessing maybe a lotta others around here can relate too. I know I am a pack animal.. I haven't found my pack yet, but I have hope we will both find a pack where we belong. I recognize myself in you. The way I might think or handle a situation. not necessarily all things I like about myself. I'm a wanderer, I don't know how long I'll stay here. But right now it feels good and I haven't sensed too many negative vibes. I hope you find that pack where you belong brother.

Do you talk to the moon too? Isn't she beautiful


completely offtopic :innocent:
 
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