INFJs and "Conforming to Society"

[barbad0s]

Don't worry about what everyone else does or thinks about this topic. If the difference between conforming and not conforming is just a choice between listening to Justin Bieber or boycotting McDonalds or not, or a matter of your opinion on a topic, it's not really a question of rebellion in any manner. Your actions and thoughts about these things, and everyone else's, are meaningless within the scope of "society".

 

[muir]

This quote has at least one huge philosophical fixation in it...what is it that which "should be"?

There are things that are 'bad' or 'good' by consensus within communities and there are things that are subjectively good or bad for an individual

 

[Trifoilum]

What are your thoughts? Do you follow instincts older than the birth of human civilization? Do you incorporate elements of society into your life as you see fit? Do you, for whatever reason(s), follow the bandwagon? Or do you disagree? Let me know.

The more we try to distinguish ourselves from 'society' (or even other people in general), the more similar we will look. And vice versa.

To say that older instincts are better / human society are bad is inherently fallacious in and itself. Like what @Flavus Aquila said; conformity is bad when it is done without thought, without critical thinking. Conformity is also bad when we had behaviors like mob rule, group bullying damaging certain minorities, and group politics influencing / hindering a decision to be made. But following the rules of society in itself is not inherently bad, or flawed, or awful-- if the people following it understands the working logic, with all its flaws and advantages, then it's simply a different way of life. Debate about which is worse or better, yes; but they aren't simply 'conforming.'

I beat my own drum, most of the time, but I also acknowledge that my beating of the drum is not THAT radical compared to society's standard. And really, I don't think I'm seeking it.

And then therein lies that in certain paths, following the standard of society can mean an easier way, and the temptation gets stronger. I admit I have fallen there more than once, in more ways than one. Is that bad? In some parts. But in other parts, it gave me good. Conformity is powerful because of what it gave, and it is imperative to understand the temptation it offered to resist it.

 

[LucyJr]

There are things that are 'bad' or 'good' by consensus within communities and there are things that are subjectively good or bad for an individual

Then there is no "should" or "ought" whatsoever, its just relativism.
Don't you think that maybe the author of the quote meant something else by "ought to"?

 

[NataljaC]

[MENTION=11638]NataljaC[/MENTION] : You said, "Not belonging anywhere is probably why we're all here in the first place...sigh. "
Yes, we often place ourselves where we will have no other choice. Can we belong and not fit in? Can we try to fit in and not belong? Where do we belong?

That's interesting. In my opinion, I think both are possible. But ultimately, where we belong is up to us, and no one else. But this can only be truly determined if we are completely honest with ourselves. "Fake it till you make it" will get you nowhere.

[MENTION=11638]NataljaC[/MENTION] , "Fake it until you make it" in what perspective? I know the general discussion, but why did you say that, if I may?

Yes, we can place ourselves where we will have no other choice. But to establish a sense of attachment or ownership to something, like the claim of "belonging" or "fitting in," we must have a degree of sincerity with ourselves. What we commit to or identify with must have a certain level of compatibility with who we truly are and what we stand for as an individual.

I have experienced belonging without fitting in. That was ok. It was better than the feeling of not belonging anywhere that I feel now. Although there is freedom in that, it still only leads me to a place of searching for belonging. In reality we should find belonging within ourselves and not look for it outside. I'm working on trying to do that.

[MENTION]NataljaC [/MENTION] Faking it until you make it does work in certain contexts. It can be a useful tool to propel you to a different level but it won't keep you there unless the next level is where you actually want to be. Sometimes you don't know if it is until you get there.

I agree with you on this, [MENTION=9809]La Sagna[/MENTION]. I feel like you've worded it more efficiently than I have.

Your actions and thoughts about these things, and everyone else's, are meaningless within the scope of "society".

There are things that are 'bad' or 'good' by consensus within communities and there are things that are subjectively good or bad for an individual

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION], if you agree that the two are interconnected, then I can see where you're getting at. But [MENTION=3998]niffer[/MENTION], without the consensus of many individuals, the brain of society would hold no power. You could almost liken it to a consumer economy, or the multiple stomachs of a cow. Someone gives it an idea. It is chewed, digested- but not completely. Presently, the idea is spit right back out by the masses who claim it to be "wrong," "unethical," "too controversial," etc. The idea gains supporters. It is chewed again, and digested. And spit out again. This cycle continues until all that is left is one big, over-simplified, yawning compromise. Such is society.

...following the rules of society in itself is not inherently bad, or flawed, or awful-- if the people following it understands the working logic, with all its flaws and advantages, then it's simply a different way of life. Debate about which is worse or better, yes; but they aren't simply 'conforming.'

I beat my own drum, most of the time, but I also acknowledge that my beating of the drum is not THAT radical compared to society's standard. And really, I don't think I'm seeking it.

And then therein lies that in certain paths, following the standard of society can mean an easier way, and the temptation gets stronger. I admit I have fallen there more than once, in more ways than one. Is that bad? In some parts. But in other parts, it gave me good. Conformity is powerful because of what it gave, and it is imperative to understand the temptation it offered to resist it.

Exactly. Society isn't radical. It is simply made up of the grass that can be digested. Sorry for the image.

 

[barbad0s]

But @niffer, without the consensus of many individuals, the brain of society would hold no power. You could almost liken it to a consumer economy, or the multiple stomachs of a cow. Someone gives it an idea. It is chewed, digested- but not completely. Presently, the idea is spit right back out by the masses who claim it to be "wrong," "unethical," "too controversial," etc. The idea gains supporters. It is chewed again, and digested. And spit out again. This cycle continues until all that is left is one big, over-simplified, yawning compromise. Such is society.

What exactly was it that you were being labeled a conformist in regards to?

My point was just that not every push towards or pull against conformity is directly relevant in the scope of the machine that is society, in terms of being directly interconnected with anything important. The role of one person in the consensus of society is one cilium in one of the cow's stomachs. And if an idea in the scope of our multifaceted culture is represented by a cow digesting grass, well, society in full is a herd containing thousands upon thousands of cows. On occasion one of the cows might cultivate a stomach fungus from indigestion and get the other cows sick, especially if it's a really extroverted cow. But in most situations a person doesn't even represent one of the cilia in an extroverted leaky cow, only one of the cilia in one of the healthy cows on the outskirts of the farm.

 

[muir]

@muir , if you agree that the two are interconnected, then I can see where you're getting at.

I think the challenge is to balance the freedoms of the individual with their responsibilities to their community

I don't believe individuals are given much freedom under the current system and i think their freedoms are decreasing all the time due to an increasingly oppressive state

Individuals should all have a say in the decision making process of their communities but they barely have any say under the current system

The current system is all kinds of wrong