Insight into INFJ men: luxury of analysis or the volatility of passive-aggression?

[HunterO]

I've been lurking for months but finally decided to come out of the closet, to speak.

A bit about me: I'm an ENTJ female who was in a relationship with an INFJ male. I've noticed that INFJs typically tend to be good analysts as well as confidantes and was hoping to receive some insight into this particular INFJ male- or at least wonder if his behaviour was typical of INFJ types.

A disclaimer: I knew from the beginning we wouldn't last for very long, as our types were just too radically different to adhere to each other's strengths and weaknesses. However, love has a transcendent kind of faith, and I thought perhaps being with an INFJ would educate me about the ways relationships can endure through the good and the bad.

In any case, here were my observations about the INFJ:

A. Superb language skills: He is a great writer, adept with words in multiple languages. He spoke Spanish as if he were born there, and wrote like Henry Miller. However, like many great writers he had a problem with alcoholism, and that was something that at first attracted me to him, but realised it was something that would also come in between us in the end.

B. Emotional immaturity: He would always argue to be "right". In fact, if I were wrong about something, he wouldn't let it go, and would go to great lengths to look up the information and repeat it over and over in a "you were wrong, I was right" sort of immature way. We ENTJs can be argumentative, but we are argumentative to be playful and play devil's advocate. Also, we like when people can convince us of the opposite position through strength of reasoning or rationale. OTOH, this INFJ male would just hate it if I were right about anything and seemed competitive when making assessments about anything. This is something I have never encountered with a man before. Usually, other NT or ST men typically say, "Oh yeah, you got a point there, but have you thought about...." and let it go or else we would wittily banter in a playful way. Is it typical of INFJs to always have to be right? I felt as if he had no sense of humour.

C. Sexually intense: He was a great lover, very warm and giving. However, he never initiated ever. It was always me who was initiating. If I didn't initiate, there would be no lovemaking. However, when we were making love, it was wonderful.

D. Indecisive/ wishy washy: Once he would insist something would never happen, I always knew was a sign that he would do it. It always seemed as if he were hiding information from me, changing stories, and making decisions without telling me. I suppose this was his way of phasing me out of his life, but all the while, he would go to great lengths to tell me how much he loved me, and would show up on my doorstep randomly to win me back. Are INFJs typically this unstable? I never knew if he were Mr. Hyde one minute or Dr. Jekyll. He would run hot and cold and I felt underneath all his words of love and devotion, that he was really the opposite: the type to sort of leave you when things got a just a little bit hard.

E. Jealousy: He would get jealous of and criticise people that I knew, including online/offline friends, but he had plenty of online/ offline friends as well, and spent a considerable amount of time hanging out with his friends' girlfriends , telling me how wonderful they were. I'm wondering if he had jealousy issues because I'm suspecting that he would probably jump at the chance to be with someone else? He always mentioned that he had one relationship in the past where his girlfriend had cheated on him, but in retrospect, I think it could've been the other way around from his behaviour.

As another note: he is a wonderful person, and we will aim to be friends in the future, but I suppose I need a bit of resolution in sorting this all out inside my head. I think overall, ENTJs like myself need more of an upfront, straightforward, honest person with whom you know where you stand, as opposed to someone who just tells you what they think you want to hear, only to realise it was all untrue, which seems manipulative and dishonest to us. Would any INFJs like to add their insights to relationships?

 

[Love_Conquers_All]

I have never met another INFJ that could bring themselves to behave in such a manipulative manner, with the exception of overload mode. In that case though it would be to just get you to leave them alone. I have read that unhealthy INFJs can be quite manipulative. Personally even when I was dealing with depression, severe self hatred, and PTSD, I never became that way. Are you certain he is an INFJ many other types are amazing with words and writing. In particular INFP and I have read more instances of them behaving in the way that you describe, as well as experiencing it at times with a friend. I could be wrong, but my gut says he is probably an unhealthy INFP.

 

[HunterO]

I have never met another INFJ that could bring themselves to behave in such a manipulative manner, with the exception of overload mode. In that case though it would be to just get you to leave them alone. I have read that unhealthy INFJs can be quite manipulative. Personally even when I was dealing with depression, severe self hatred, and PTSD, I never became that way. Are you certain he is an INFJ many other types are amazing with words and writing. In particular INFP and I have read more instances of them behaving in the way that you describe, as well as experiencing it at times with a friend. I could be wrong, but my gut says he is probably an unhealthy INFP.

He's quite interested in MBTI theory and have always known he was an INFJ and his tests have been consistent. In his actions though, I think he could have aspirations to become more ENFJ. I think it might be our particular chemistry as well, and perhaps he wouldn't act this way with another type.

I don't want to make him out to be a terrible person, as he isn't. I suppose what is elusive and part of the attraction towards INFJ types is that there is something altogether mysterious and intense about them and finding out all their secrets becomes a kind of mesmerising act. I did mention he struggles intermittently with alcoholism and perhaps having addictions can make one switch moods rather quickly hence the Jekyll/Hyde behaviour.

I actually haven't found INFPs to be manipulative- they have the same functions as my type ENTJ, but re-ordered so we can often see things in the same way, although our actions might be different. They typically are also quite upfront in a similar vein to ENTJs so there aren't many possibilities for miscommunication although I find INFJs are more detailed in their worldview and I find something oddly magnetic about their quiet rage.

Do you suppose you withhold information when you fear hurting the other person?

 

[LucyJr]

D. Indecisive/ wishy washy: Once he would insist something would never happen, I always knew was a sign that he would do it. It always seemed as if he were hiding information from me, changing stories, and making decisions without telling me. I suppose this was his way of phasing me out of his life, but all the while, he would go to great lengths to tell me how much he loved me, and would show up on my doorstep randomly to win me back. Are INFJs typically this unstable? I never knew if he were Mr. Hyde one minute or Dr. Jekyll. He would run hot and cold and I felt underneath all his words of love and devotion, that he was really the opposite: the type to sort of leave you when things got a just a little bit hard.

Yes, absolutely. As much as I like to think at myself as a mature person, its like I something have this indecisiveness, which makes me look like a child. Just a two days ago at work a got this sort of "compliment" from a guy. But there is a really good explanation for this behaviour... It is very know that INFJs are the biggest picture thinkers. With that weight on their shoulders, they pretty much sometimes doubt everything. This doubt would lead to a lot of indecisiveness on his part. It is important to understand that he doesn't have the robotic assurence of Te...he works intutively, and sometimes he's entire world might colapse inside. Of course, that won't last long, after a few time he will gain his confidence back. Check this article (INFp in Socionics is INFJ in MBTI):

If the INFp had a theme song, it would go thusly:

“Vado, ma dove? Oh dei!
Se de’ tormenti suoi, se de’ sospiri miei
Non sente il ciel pietа.

Tu che mi parli al core
Guida I miei passi, amore;
Tu quel ritegno or togli
Che dubitar mi fа.”

**
“I go – but where, o gods
since for his torment and my pleas
Heaven offers no pity?

You who speak to my heart,
Guide my steps, dear love;
Ease that uncertainty,
That urges me to doubt.”

- LORENZO DA PONTE (1749-1838)

The INFp is perpetually caught within that “pondering repose of If” that Herman Melville wrote of in Moby-Dick. He is forever in doubt. He never truly feels at ease with the ways of this world, its people and its circumstances. It is not that he does not understand things – but that he doubts his own understanding. In fact, he is capable of an understanding on a far more visceral level than his peers are. He “feels” that he has understood something rather than “knows” that this is the case. True understanding for an INFp is forever linked with the word “revelation.” He will never claim to have deduced an understanding, but will instead say that the truth was “revealed” to him.

So here it is. INFJs are abstract free thinkers, which trust me, its a pretty hard job. Ni is not certain like Te ( althought I know ENTJs have Ni as a secondary function, but in their case Ni is guarded/grounded by Te ), at least in the beginning...after some times, Ni+Fe+Ti can develop some maturity in terms of confidence and certainty.

Aside from this, I just find it intriguing that you guys were making up eachother. ENTJs + INFJs can be a strong match!

B. Emotional immaturity: He would always argue to be "right". In fact, if I were wrong about something, he wouldn't let it go, and would go to great lengths to look up the information and repeat it over and over in a "you were wrong, I was right" sort of immature way. We ENTJs can be argumentative, but we are argumentative to be playful and play devil's advocate. Also, we like when people can convince us of the opposite position through strength of reasoning or rationale. OTOH, this INFJ male would just hate it if I were right about anything and seemed competitive when making assessments about anything. This is something I have never encountered with a man before. Usually, other NT or ST men typically say, "Oh yeah, you got a point there, but have you thought about...." and let it go or else we would wittily banter in a playful way. Is it typical of INFJs to always have to be right? I felt as if he had no sense of humour.

Just curious...emotional immaturity means also... whiny? I've been found this stereotype about INFJs males, which I think is false, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this!

 

[LucyJr]

C. Sexually intense: He was a great lover, very warm and giving. However, he never initiated ever. It was always me who was initiating. If I didn't initiate, there would be no lovemaking. However, when we were making love, it was wonderful.

It depends on the individual. I'm not the kind that would wait for initiation.

E. Jealousy: He would get jealous of and criticise people that I knew, including online/offline friends, but he had plenty of online/ offline friends as well, and spent a considerable amount of time hanging out with his friends' girlfriends , telling me how wonderful they were. I'm wondering if he had jealousy issues because I'm suspecting that he would probably jump at the chance to be with someone else? He always mentioned that he had one relationship in the past where his girlfriend had cheated on him, but in retrospect, I think it could've been the other way around from his behaviour.

Again, this is something related to the way we understand relation, not necesarely tied to one type. For example, I think jelousy is a sign of a weak trust in the partener. When I'm confident in my partener's love, I don't have any need to feel jelous. So I don't know, maybe he was a bit insecure.

A. Superb language skills: He is a great writer, adept with words in multiple languages. He spoke Spanish as if he were born there, and wrote like Henry Miller. However, like many great writers he had a problem with alcoholism, and that was something that at first attracted me to him, but realised it was something that would also come in between us in the end.

Yes, INFJs tend to be excellent writters and poets .

 

[muir]

I've been lurking for months but finally decided to come out of the closet, to speak.

A bit about me: I'm an ENTJ female who was in a relationship with an INFJ male. I've noticed that INFJs typically tend to be good analysts as well as confidantes and was hoping to receive some insight into this particular INFJ male- or at least wonder if his behaviour was typical of INFJ types.

A disclaimer: I knew from the beginning we wouldn't last for very long, as our types were just too radically different to adhere to each other's strengths and weaknesses. However, love has a transcendent kind of faith, and I thought perhaps being with an INFJ would educate me about the ways relationships can endure through the good and the bad.

In any case, here were my observations about the INFJ:

A. Superb language skills: He is a great writer, adept with words in multiple languages. He spoke Spanish as if he were born there, and wrote like Henry Miller. However, like many great writers he had a problem with alcoholism, and that was something that at first attracted me to him, but realised it was something that would also come in between us in the end.

Our current culture is not set up for INFJ's. Our society currently lives under certain ideologies that are an anathema to people of conscience for example rampant consumerism, neoliberalism and monopolistic capitalism

These ideas which are formulated into 'ideologies' or 'philosophies' are basically the product of sick minds and the results of these ideas can be seen manifesting in all of the problems we see around us in the world right now

Alcohol might be a persons consolation in such a harsh environment; i barely drink myself but i drank a lot in my late teens

B. Emotional immaturity: He would always argue to be "right". In fact, if I were wrong about something, he wouldn't let it go, and would go to great lengths to look up the information and repeat it over and over in a "you were wrong, I was right" sort of immature way. We ENTJs can be argumentative, but we are argumentative to be playful and play devil's advocate.

Emotional maturity is HONESTY; its not a game...it is the the underlying moulding force of our reality. A lack of honesty creates a shit reality, a lot of honesty creates a good reality

What we are seeing in the world at the moment is a lack of honesty which is why 'whistleblowers' are having to come forward to try to restore some balance

Also, we like when people can convince us of the opposite position through strength of reasoning or rationale. OTOH, this INFJ male would just hate it if I were right about anything and seemed competitive when making assessments about anything. This is something I have never encountered with a man before. Usually, other NT or ST men typically say, "Oh yeah, you got a point there, but have you thought about...." and let it go or else we would wittily banter in a playful way. Is it typical of INFJs to always have to be right? I felt as if he had no sense of humour.

I am speaking in generalisations here (but then so is MBTI) but what you are likely to find with INFJ's is that they have read huge amounts, observed huge amounts, and reflected on things more than most people

They feel a drive to understand the meanings behind things and generally put FAR MORE ENERGY into this than other people

People wonder where their insights come from and sometimes say things like ''how can you possibly know that?'' It will be at that point that the INFJ politely bites their tongue but what they really want to say is: ''because whilst you were watching X Factor and **insert name of soap opera or sports event** I was learning stuff!''

C. Sexually intense: He was a great lover, very warm and giving. However, he never initiated ever. It was always me who was initiating. If I didn't initiate, there would be no lovemaking. However, when we were making love, it was wonderful.

.

D. Indecisive/ wishy washy: Once he would insist something would never happen, I always knew was a sign that he would do it. It always seemed as if he were hiding information from me, changing stories, and making decisions without telling me. I suppose this was his way of phasing me out of his life, but all the while, he would go to great lengths to tell me how much he loved me, and would show up on my doorstep randomly to win me back. Are INFJs typically this unstable? I never knew if he were Mr. Hyde one minute or Dr. Jekyll. He would run hot and cold and I felt underneath all his words of love and devotion, that he was really the opposite: the type to sort of leave you when things got a just a little bit hard.

He may have been reacting to different aspects of you. So he may have loved you but found aspects such as the disagreements to be difficult? (remember INFJ's don't generally like conflict). That might create a tug and pull indecision?

E. Jealousy: He would get jealous of and criticise people that I knew, including online/offline friends, but he had plenty of online/ offline friends as well, and spent a considerable amount of time hanging out with his friends' girlfriends , telling me how wonderful they were. I'm wondering if he had jealousy issues because I'm suspecting that he would probably jump at the chance to be with someone else? He always mentioned that he had one relationship in the past where his girlfriend had cheated on him, but in retrospect, I think it could've been the other way around from his behaviour.

As another note: he is a wonderful person, and we will aim to be friends in the future, but I suppose I need a bit of resolution in sorting this all out inside my head. I think overall, ENTJs like myself need more of an upfront, straightforward, honest person with whom you know where you stand, as opposed to someone who just tells you what they think you want to hear, only to realise it was all untrue, which seems manipulative and dishonest to us. Would any INFJs like to add their insights to relationships?

I don't think jelousy is an INFJ trait per se

There's a good thread that someone started recently looking at MBTI types and their roles in society. it might shed some more light:

It discusses a study that looks at different personality types and their roles in society: http://careerassessmentsite.com/mbti-personality-types-socioeconomic-infographic/

Link to thread: http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27498

 

[invisible]

yes, immature INFJs can have problems. ive had some of the problems you mentioned, and i am definitely an INFJ. at this time in my development i experience my personality as being ultra simplified, but in the past, i experienced it as complicated and difficult to manage. i knew that there were a lot of complex things that i needed to understand and i understood none of them. it took time and work to figure it all out. im sure other types have their own problems in coming to maturity too.

i was struck by what you wrote about not letting arguments go. i know i was like that in the past and it was something i had to recognise in myself. i see other members on the forum act in this way too. i think its because when you are beginning on the developmental path as an infj, everything seems like a matter of intense ethical urgency. its not just about the ideas - its about whether they are right or wrong; and wrong is inflexible. i think eventually you get to recognise that things are a bit more fluid and grey than right and wrong, and so it becomes easier to recognise the validity of alternative perspectives.

 

[muir]

yes, immature INFJs can have problems. ive had some of the problems you mentioned, and i am definitely an INFJ. at this time in my development i experience my personality as being ultra simplified, but in the past, i experienced it as complicated and difficult to manage. i knew that there were a lot of complex things that i needed to understand and i understood none of them. it took time and work to figure it all out. im sure other types have their own problems in coming to maturity too.

i was struck by what you wrote about not letting arguments go. i know i was like that in the past and it was something i had to recognise in myself. i see other members on the forum act in this way too. i think its because when you are beginning on the developmental path as an infj, everything seems like a matter of intense ethical urgency. its not just about the ideas - its about whether they are right or wrong; and wrong is inflexible. i think eventually you get to recognise that things are a bit more fluid and grey than right and wrong, and so it becomes easier to recognise the validity of alternative perspectives.

I think INFJ's come to their ethical conclusions from having listened to and assessed all the alternative perspectives

 

[invisible]

I think INFJ's come to their ethical conclusions from having listened to and assessed all the alternative perspectives

i think thats one very valid perspective.

 

[muir]

i think thats one very valid perspective.

Here's the danger as i see it....

There are some people in the world trying to steer it in the direction they want it to go. This is not a subjective opinion of mine, it can all be seen in current affairs for example the TTP Treaty being negotiated at the moment (see also NSA revelations, bank scandals etc)

What these few people want the mass of people doing as they streal all the wealth and power is to be distracting themselves and each other and also to lose their focus by drifting into relativity

We shouldn't be afraid to take a strong position on issues. For example i think rapeing people is wrong. I think waging war against defenceless people to gain profit is wrong. There might be some nuances to some issues but if people just stand back saying ''i don't know its all just a grey area isn't it?'' the powers that be will carry on their behaviours with glee because they have no such reservations

There IS an ethical urgency!

 

[invisible]

Here's the danger as i see it....

There are some people in the world trying to steer it in the direction they want it to go. This is not a subjective opinion of mine, it can all be seen in current affairs for example the TTP Treaty being negotiated at the moment (see also NSA revelations, bank scandals etc)

What these few people want the mass of people doing as they streal all the wealth and power is to be distracting themselves and each other and also to lose their focus by drifting into relativity

We shouldn't be afraid to take a strong position on issues. For example i think rapeing people is wrong. I think waging war against defenceless people to gain profit is wrong. There might be some nuances to some issues but if people just stand back saying ''i don't know its all just a grey area isn't it?'' the powers that be will carry on their behaviours with glee because they have no such reservations

There IS an ethical urgency!

people who want to resolve the problem of rape might have different approaches to the resolution of the problem, and their approaches might clash on ethical grounds. some activists believe that raising awareness about the incidence of rape of women by men is the best way to go about this, (i think i read that 1 in 5 american college women will be raped,) and to ask men to hold themselves responsible for the widespread rape of women. i think that i personally agree with this perspective, because i think that the problem is way out of hand. other activists might believe that there is a problem with the basic education of men, and that the emotional lives of men are being trained in inappropriate ways that is desensitizing them to their own emotions and those of others which enables them to commit rapes, and that the way to go about resolving the problem of rape is by paying more attention to mens emotions. surely this is a factor in the problem of rape, but how important is it? speaking in a general way, activists who believe that the most meaningful way to approach this problem is through holding men responsible tend to believe that mens emotions are not important in this equation, and that the important thing is to take a very practical view on resolving the problem no matter whose feelings get hurt, because the problem is so massive. but this conflicts with the perspectives of activists who want to promote the equal emotional rights of men with women, who see that men are not encouraged to be allowed to have emotions and to speak their emotions openly. both of these groups believe that their ethical perspectives on this issue are equally correct and important, but they are in conflict with each other.

how do you want to resolve the problem of world poverty? an action is an ethical step. should we redistribute wealth completely equally? but is it a human right to hold possessions and to express self through ownership? is it a violation of human rights to not protect ownership of property? if so, then how can we ethically redistribute all wealth? many people who believe in capitalism claim that it is the best way to redistribute wealth, because more total wealth becomes available in the system, and so there is more accessible wealth - but how do we ensure that wealth does not then become hereditary, and that poor people are able to actually obtain wealth for themselves? i realise im putting these arguments crudely, but they are real arguments that people have about what is right, and what is wrong.

INFJs (or others) may obtain all information that is available to them to determine an ethical direction on some particular matter. but how can that individual be entirely certain that they have been able to obtain all of the information that is relevant, and not just the limited information that is available to them - for whatever reason, due perhaps to the censorship of tyrannical regimes, or to their own inherent abilities?

can i suggest that there may be little point discussing these matters with others on a day to day basis. it takes a very persuasive person to convince others of some particular matter or other, and it takes a very open minded person to receive other possibilities. im sorry to say that from my observations in this world, both of myself and others, most people are neither of those things! is changing the minds of even ten people in this way a meaningful achievement, when there are so many people on this earth that are say, committing war crimes? we each possess such a limited time in life. what is the point of arguing here and there, all over the place, of one particular right or wrong after another, and how does this make the world a better place, in a meaningful way? there are heaps and heaps of people, everywhere, ready to argue about right and wrong, and tell other people that they are wrong. i dont want to spend my life being one of those ppl. i already cant believe how much time ive spent writing this.

 

[muir]

people who want to resolve the problem of rape might have different approaches to the resolution of the problem, and their approaches might clash on ethical grounds. some activists believe that raising awareness about the incidence of rape of women by men is the best way to go about this, (i think i read that 1 in 5 american college women will be raped,) and to ask men to hold themselves responsible for the widespread rape of women. i think that i personally agree with this perspective, because i think that the problem is way out of hand. other activists might believe that there is a problem with the basic education of men, and that the emotional lives of men are being trained in inappropriate ways that is desensitizing them to their own emotions and those of others which enables them to commit rapes, and that the way to go about resolving the problem of rape is by paying more attention to mens emotions. surely this is a factor in the problem of rape, but how important is it? speaking in a general way, activists who believe that the most meaningful way to approach this problem is through holding men responsible tend to believe that mens emotions are not important in this equation, and that the important thing is to take a very practical view on resolving the problem no matter whose feelings get hurt, because the problem is so massive. but this conflicts with the perspectives of activists who want to promote the equal emotional rights of men with women, who see that men are not encouraged to be allowed to have emotions and to speak their emotions openly. both of these groups believe that their ethical perspectives on this issue are equally correct and important, but they are in conflict with each other.

Those are the nuances surrounding the understanding of and solving of the issue but what i am saying people need to not be relative about is that rape is wrong

Concerning the nuances of why rape occurs and what can be done about it I have a lot to say but concerning the ethics of the act of rape itself i am unequivacal: its wrong...there is no relativity there

What i am talking about is an attack that is going on not on the understanding or solution level but on the ethical level....an undermining of our ethics; and i don't think people should be relative there

how do you want to resolve the problem of world poverty? an action is an ethical step. should we redistribute wealth completely equally? but is it a human right to hold possessions and to express self through ownership? is it a violation of human rights to not protect ownership of property? if so, then how can we ethically redistribute all wealth? many people who believe in capitalism claim that it is the best way to redistribute wealth, because more total wealth becomes available in the system, and so there is more accessible wealth - but how do we ensure that wealth does not then become hereditary, and that poor people are able to actually obtain wealth for themselves? i realise im putting these arguments crudely, but they are real arguments that people have about what is right, and what is wrong.

Once again you are talking about understanding the issues and finding solutions to them......what should be unequivacably seen as wrong is the use of poverty as a weapon against people

INFJs (or others) may obtain all information that is available to them to determine an ethical direction on some particular matter. but how can that individual be entirely certain that they have been able to obtain all of the information that is relevant, and not just the limited information that is available to them - for whatever reason, due perhaps to the censorship of tyrannical regimes, or to their own inherent abilities?

My argument is that INFJ's put more energy into it than most. They generally research these issues more deeply

can i suggest that there may be little point discussing these matters with others on a day to day basis. it takes a very persuasive person to convince others of some particular matter or other, and it takes a very open minded person to receive other possibilities. im sorry to say that from my observations in this world, both of myself and others, most people are neither of those things! is changing the minds of even ten people in this way a meaningful achievement, when there are so many people on this earth that are say, committing war crimes? we each possess such a limited time in life. what is the point of arguing here and there, all over the place, of one particular right or wrong after another, and how does this make the world a better place, in a meaningful way? there are heaps and heaps of people, everywhere, ready to argue about right and wrong, and tell other people that they are wrong. i dont want to spend my life being one of those ppl. i already cant believe how much time ive spent writing this.

That's YOUR perception

But you can't talk about 'development' like you did before when what you really mean is 'desensitisation' without expecting the odd person to point out the error

Desensitisation is not maturity and it is not spiritual development. Losing a social conscience is not spritual evolution it is spiritual devolution

That devolution is EXACTLY what the engineers of perception are trying to do in our society right now which is why there is so much discussion about these issues around the world right now (see the protests occuring in scores of countries)

The issue is whether we want to engage and be active participants in our reality or whether we want to bury our heads in the sand; that is a choice for the individual but i don't think the bury their head in the sand brigade should make pretenses to being more developed or mature...they aren't

 

[invisible]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION], you arent going to find a lot of people to argue with you about whether rape or poverty are fabulous. the things i mentioned arent nuances, theyre the realities of the current debates. im not desensitised or burying my head in the sand, im just not convinced that im going to make a maximum impact on the world by spending my time arguing about stuff.

 

[muir]

@muir , you arent going to find a lot of people to argue with you about whether rape or poverty are fabulous. the things i mentioned arent nuances, theyre the realities of the current debates. im not desensitised or burying my head in the sand, im just not convinced that im going to make a maximum impact on the world by spending my time arguing about stuff.

There ARE people out there who DO argue for policys which DO lead to rape and poverty

That is why spreading awareness around the internet is a good thing because it undermines those policies

For example 'neoliberalism' is used as a weapon to place millions into poverty. Unless people know what neoliberalism is then there will be no resistance to that. So i think its a good thing for regular folks to talk about issues. if its left to the people at the very top to be the only people who discuss the big issues then we are basically relinquishing all power to them and that is going to end very badly

Personally i don't think INFJ's need to be right...i think they just often ARE right because they are more aware of the wider implications of things

They also don't care about being 'right' for an ego trip but because they know that the world will not be right until people can see clearly; all problems come from distorted perceptions

I don't think people have a problem with INFJ's 'neeeding to be right' i think people have a problem with learning that they've been wrong and being annoyed at the INFJ for pointing it out....but the INFJ earned that insight by living and behaving differently

What you're more likely to get from INFJ's are people who don't blindly follow the crowd...people who think for themselves. Most people are too worried about being liked or about fitting in and they would rather fit in and be liked then cultivate a relationship with the truth and that is why the world is so out of whack because people with bad intent create negative cultures that people then try to fit in with without questioning

Its been proven that people will just follow what those around them are doing and not only that but their perception of reality will actually warp to fit that of those around them even if that perception is distorted. This is why atrocities are able to happen...too many people blindly following and not thinking for themselves: http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/yo...aslam-on-what-the-prison-experiment-got-wrong


Here's the main spokesman for the zapatista movement speaking to the world on the internet to spread awarenes to people how neoliberalism is being used as a weapon against large swathes of humanity (here it is straight from the horses mouth so to speak)

[video=youtube;5OTy3aLBSMw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OTy3aLBSMw[/video]

Government insider admiting publically that the age of mass communication (ie people speaking over the internet) is making it harder for them to control people because the internet is causing a global awakening of political consciousness:

[video=youtube;bHknL5z8f6k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHknL5z8f6k[/video]

These policies aren't just impacting mexico or africa they are hitting here in the west as well through 'austerity'; its all part of the same thing and we are all a part of it whether we like it or not

 

[MindYourHead]

Interesting thread. I wish I had seen it earlier when I was at my desktop computer as I am now on my tablet, and typing on it I find cumbersome.
The point you made about having to be right struck a cord with me, because this is a part of me my Wife has made me aware of.
I tend to be adamant about proving I am right with reams of evidence to back my views up even after She has moved on. This doesn't go over well.

I will visit this later when I am on a real keyboard.

 

[muir]

As another note: he is a wonderful person, and we will aim to be friends in the future, but I suppose I need a bit of resolution in sorting this all out inside my head. I think overall, ENTJs like myself need more of an upfront, straightforward, honest person with whom you know where you stand, as opposed to someone who just tells you what they think you want to hear, only to realise it was all untrue, which seems manipulative and dishonest to us. Would any INFJs like to add their insights to relationships?

Can i ask why you would come to an INFJ forum and imply that INFJ's aren't honest?

If you think INFJ's aren't 'honest' and 'straightforward' why would you want to come to a forum that would attract them?

I have seen that you have posted in other threads so clearly its not just to find resolution over your relationship which is what you say this thread is about

So is it because you want to indulge in the luxury of analysis or is it because you want to be passive aggressive towards the INFJ type?

I hope that is honest and straightforward enough for you 'hunter'

 

[invisible]

thanks [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION], youre right, it is important to discuss these things.

 

[muir]

thanks @muir , youre right, it is important to discuss these things.

Keep the flame alive brother!

 

[Love_Conquers_All]

Huh, we'll I guess I was "fortunate" to have to mature so quickly due to inefficient parenting skills and a shit ton of trauma. I still struggle with some of the negative personality aspects inherent to INFJs just not what this one is dealing with. [MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION] thanks for reminding me about the socionics difference that's probably why I was thinking INFP for this guy. I also was a little biased being my one INFP friend was pretty unhealthy when I met him so he exhibited most of the traits she mentioned in the op.

 

[HunterO]

So here it is. INFJs are abstract free thinkers, which trust me, its a pretty hard job. Ni is not certain like Te ( althought I know ENTJs have Ni as a secondary function, but in their case Ni is guarded/grounded by Te ), at least in the beginning...after some times, Ni+Fe+Ti can develop some maturity in terms of confidence and certainty.

Aside from this, I just find it intriguing that you guys were making up eachother. ENTJs + INFJs can be a strong match!

Just curious...emotional immaturity means also... whiny? I've been found this stereotype about INFJs males, which I think is false, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this!

You make some very thought provoking points I think though that Fe could potentially be detrimental when making decisions because it is about group consensus. Perhaps that is the reason for the clash that I had with my INFJ- he cared about consensus, whereas that wasn't a goal objective for me. I think being together with completely different political and religious views is something I don't feel uncomfortable with as long as we have share the same internal values, whereas I think the former is something he holds dear to his heart and will find problematic if I disagreed with his opinions.

He wasn't whiny at all. In reality, I'm more of the whinger Thank God for Happy Hour and the gym, otherwise my poor SOs might have to deal with my temperamental rants...He wasn't a whiner, but he was a bit of a baby in the way that I suppose all men tend to want to be babied sometimes. Preparing nice dinners for him and taking care of him when he was sick was something that I think he found the most lovable about me.

Our current culture is not set up for INFJ's. Our society currently lives under certain ideologies that are an anathema to people of conscience for example rampant consumerism, neoliberalism and monopolistic capitalism

These ideas which are formulated into 'ideologies' or 'philosophies' are basically the product of sick minds and the results of these ideas can be seen manifesting in all of the problems we see around us in the world right now

Alcohol might be a persons consolation in such a harsh environment; i barely drink myself but i drank a lot in my late teens

Emotional maturity is HONESTY; its not a game...it is the the underlying moulding force of our reality. A lack of honesty creates a shit reality, a lot of honesty creates a good reality

What we are seeing in the world at the moment is a lack of honesty which is why 'whistleblowers' are having to come forward to try to restore some balance

I am speaking in generalisations here (but then so is MBTI) but what you are likely to find with INFJ's is that they have read huge amounts, observed huge amounts, and reflected on things more than most people

They feel a drive to understand the meanings behind things and generally put FAR MORE ENERGY into this than other people

People wonder where their insights come from and sometimes say things like ''how can you possibly know that?'' It will be at that point that the INFJ politely bites their tongue but what they really want to say is: ''because whilst you were watching X Factor and **insert name of soap opera or sports event** I was learning stuff!''
.
He may have been reacting to different aspects of you. So he may have loved you but found aspects such as the disagreements to be difficult? (remember INFJ's don't generally like conflict). That might create a tug and pull indecision?

I don't think jelousy is an INFJ trait per se

There's a good thread that someone started recently looking at MBTI types and their roles in society. it might shed some more light:

It discusses a study that looks at different personality types and their roles in society: http://careerassessmentsite.com/mbti-personality-types-socioeconomic-infographic/

Link to thread: http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27498

If you don't mind an observation Muir, but you remind me a lot of people who work in the financial industries, especially what you said about the whistleblower part. I agree our current society is configured for consumerism and capitalism, however I don't think the public at large are as gullible as they have been treated by the media. I find most people quite intelligent; however application of that intelligence is an entirely another matter...

To be honest, I got the feeling that INFJs expect you to guess why they were mad or extrapolate why they were feeling jealous. I consider myself good at reading people, but I'm certainly not psychic. I expect my partner to tell me when he feels jealous, but I suppose that's a bit unrealistic considering how men have a tendency to sulk. (!) At least when I'm feeling jealous, I tell him straight away. He doesn't and let it build and build until it finally comes out and we have a row about it.

yes, immature INFJs can have problems. ive had some of the problems you mentioned, and i am definitely an INFJ. at this time in my development i experience my personality as being ultra simplified, but in the past, i experienced it as complicated and difficult to manage. i knew that there were a lot of complex things that i needed to understand and i understood none of them. it took time and work to figure it all out. im sure other types have their own problems in coming to maturity too.

i was struck by what you wrote about not letting arguments go. i know i was like that in the past and it was something i had to recognise in myself. i see other members on the forum act in this way too. i think its because when you are beginning on the developmental path as an infj, everything seems like a matter of intense ethical urgency. its not just about the ideas - its about whether they are right or wrong; and wrong is inflexible. i think eventually you get to recognise that things are a bit more fluid and grey than right and wrong, and so it becomes easier to recognise the validity of alternative perspectives.

Those are very insightful remarks and I'm glad you shared your POV. I see how Fe vs Te could potentially have a significant part in the breakdown of communication. INFJs need for consensus clashes with the ENTJs objective of exploring possibilities. It sounds a bit reductive but I think consensus is the last thing I think of when engaging in dialogue and I do see that INFJs believe very passionately in anything they discuss whereas ENTJs or other Ts can take a more light-hearted approach.

There ARE people out there who DO argue for policys which DO lead to rape and poverty

Well not to derail the thread about rape, but rape is often, a very complex situation, in which the common usage of the term of "rape" is not necessarily about strangers violently raping women as depicted in Rubens' Rape of the Sabine Women. In legalese, rape is often defined as a breakdown of communication between two lovers, or else an underage person having consensual sex with an older person or even a person having consensual sex under the influence, so there are many variations of rape. However, most "rapes" are not reported and often most rape victims are men being raped by other men in the prison system, so there are many arenas to evaluate the type of rape inflicted by others in various situations.

Huh, we'll I guess I was "fortunate" to have to mature so quickly due to inefficient parenting skills and a shit ton of trauma. I still struggle with some of the negative personality aspects inherent to INFJs just not what this one is dealing with. thanks for reminding me about the socionics difference that's probably why I was thinking INFP for this guy. I also was a little biased being my one INFP friend was pretty unhealthy when I met him so he exhibited most of the traits she mentioned in the op.

In my opinion, I think everyone needs to go through an "unhealthy" phase to see things in a different light. I'm rather suspicious of perfect people, as I tend to think most people who are the most aware and have the most emotional intelligence are the ones who have at one time, been through a trying period of transition or even rage against society. Of course, this doesn't apply to all, but we should take into account the vicissitudes of life instead of thinking people should be content all the time, which is unnatural.