Intelligence associated with Negativity?

[aeon]

We have shopping trolleys which you put a £1 coin in. So you have to return it to get your £1 back. Solves trolleys being abandoned

Incentivized behavior, makes sense I guess, but it means the wealthy can simply abandon, and the poor are unduly burdened. Leave it to the English to find a class-based solution!

Lulz,
Ian

 

[dZpADTLrPmX4c]

No one would sensibly say intelligence isn’t important would they?

You could argue it isn't, yes. But then I may not be sensible ^_^

the rarer types and functions have greater potential power in society

Oh this sounds like a kingmaker sort of analogy. Like to say, a boat fixer would be invaluable if we were all on a boat at sea and it broke.
There are instances where yes, certain skillsets may be like that. Not to say the least that what we consider power may be different between people.
But to say an individual has innately more potential because of how they were born. Hmmm. Sure. Depending on how society operates that's totally plausible, harharhar

perfect example is leaving a shopping cart in the parking lot of a grocery store. The consensus opinion would seem to be it is okay to do so, as it seems most people do this.

My solution has been to park next to a buggy corral.

That being said I'm not sure if it is consensus opinion to do so, only that the ones who don't are more visible than the ones who do. Furthermore, my guess is most people know they should but don't; that is, it may be considered an acceptable wrongdoing.
There's definitely times I haven't, typically because the cost to society (at that instance) doesn't square with my immediate circumstances.
I'd like to believe that all the empty carts I saw today aren't because people don't care, but because for some of us today just wasn't their day.
But some people really don't care.

 

[aeon]

I am very curious though about how (you all) define intelligence, though?

Just off the cuff, as it applies to human beings, I would say the ability to acquire and retain knowledge and skills that are of benefit/of utility to an individual in navigating their environment and the situations they encounter, both external and internal, in service of survival, meeting their needs, and enjoying and taking pleasure in their life.

That plays out across multiple domains.

Self-awareness, reasoning, critical thinking, social skills, emotional skills, sexual awareness, risk assessment, abstraction, the ability to plan ahead, adaptability to changes, situationally-appropriate recall and efficacious application, logic, deduction, induction, creativity, problem-solving, error-correction...

Cheers,
Ian

 

[philostam]

Great point @John K that most of disagreements are actually about presoppusitions.

What I think Ti is good at is zeroing in on the first principle. Trying to find a base that cannot be falsified, and then building your structure from there. But in order to do that, you obviously need to take objective reality into account. That's why I struggle to see the use of Ti in metaphysics, because it seems like there's no granite floor to build your structure on.

I cannot base my arguments on whether certain concept vibes with me or moves me to tears. Nothing does anyway. I mean there are things that vibe with me, for sure, and that reveals to you who you are. But they still need to be challenged to see if I can use them as building blocks.

Knowledge is just error correction. No theory is "true" , it's just a question if it has or has not been falsified. Even Einsten's general theory of relatively is not true, it just works for now because no one has been able to disprove it.

At the same time, some theories are useful, so I adopt them. Like MBTI. Here I don't even care for any sort of proof. Usefulness is enough of a proof.

 

[Jexocuha]

Just off the cuff, as it applies to human beings, I would say the ability to acquire and retain knowledge and skills that are of benefit/of utility to an individual in navigating their environment and the situations they encounter, both external and internal, in service of survival, meeting their needs, and enjoying and taking pleasure in their life.

That plays out across multiple domains.

Self-awareness, reasoning, critical thinking, social skills, emotional skills, sexual awareness, risk assessment, abstraction, the ability to plan ahead, adaptability to changes, situationally-appropriate recall and efficacious application, logic, deduction, induction, creativity, problem-solving, error-correction...

Cheers,
Ian

Thanks Ian, for the reply post. I deleted the question because I thought it might have been a "stupid" question and I haven't had much time to really think through what I was asking. But I think it is an important question because when making comparisons between "lesser intelligent" and "more intelligent", it can cause confusion if we are talking about different measurements of intelligence.

You're right though, "it plays out across multiple domains". Perceptions of intelligence are highly contextual, imo.

 

[John K]

Now, let’s have a laugh about that...even if part of me absolutely loves this:

Of course it's getting more tricky to use shopping carts as a social barometer these days. Round our way, they have developed a kind of sentience - they go wandering about all by themselves at night and seem to end up in all sorts of strange places round town, a mile of more from their store. Some of them seem to have an affinity with water - they end up in local creeks and stream beds but they don't seem to be able to swim yet, because they can be there for weeks till someone rescues them. I wonder what Darwin would make of it all - it seems to support the idea that life can appear spontaneously after all.

I notice that the wanderers are always alone. Maybe they are the introverted carts that don't like being stacked up in great crowds for hours on end - Bless! I can sympathise with that

 

[Wyote]

I notice that the wanderers are always alone. Maybe they are the introverted carts that don't like being stacked up in great crowds for hours on end - Bless! I can sympathise with that

Sounds like this book may be of some help, though you'll have to find one for your area

 

[John K]

Sounds like this book may be of some help, though you'll have to find one for your area

That sounds like a wonderful alternative to train spotting or twitching ....

 

[David Nelson]

Even when I am acting in accordance with a value that considers the “we,” it isn’t because I care about what they think at all. It’s only based on what I think right for the situation. A perfect example is leaving a shopping cart in the parking lot of a grocery store. The consensus opinion would seem to be it is okay to do so, as it seems most people do this. I don’t care—I always return my cart (if I have one) to the store, no question, because I think it best (for all of us) to do so.

Now, let’s have a laugh about that...even if part of me absolutely loves this:

Cheers,
Ian

A similar example of a good way to assess a person’s character is to have them see a person unknowingly drop their wallet. Does the person wait till they can pick it up and profit from it (assuming it has money in it), or do they let the person know and return it to them?
I would definitely return it to them obvs. I once found a woman’s handbag in a supermarket trolley and took it to the store. Bit miffed that staff who took it didn’t even thank me! I wanted a medal lol

 

[John K]

A similar example of a good way to assess a person’s character is to have them see a person unknowingly drop their wallet. Does the person wait till they can pick it up and profit from it (assuming it has money in it), or do they let the person know and return it to them?
I would definitely return it to them obvs. I once found a woman’s handbag in a supermarket trolley and took it to the store. Bit miffed that staff who took it didn’t even thank me! I wanted a medal lol

You can get some amusing twists on this. I once bought a few things from a local shop and only when I got outside did I notice they'd given me the wrong change. I went back in and told the lady behind the counter, who told me in a rather shirty voice that they didn't correct change once someone had left the shop. I said Oh! OK! That's a shame because you gave me change for £10, not the £5 note I gave you, and walked out.

 

[dZpADTLrPmX4c]

You can get some amusing twists on this. I once bought a few things from a local shop and only when I got outside did I notice they'd given me the wrong change. I went back in and told the lady behind the counter, who told me in a rather shirty voice that they didn't correct change once someone had left the shop. I said Oh! OK! That's a shame because you gave me change for £10, not the £5 note I gave you, and walked out.

oh wooowwwww
just wow

 

[John K]

oh wooowwwww
just wow

I was both amused but also annoyed - and quite sad really. My guess is that they give too much change by accident as often as too little, but most customers must only return if they are short changed. If she’d been less rude I’d have persisted in trying to return the overpayment.

 

[John K]

Could be, it can be difficult to measure how far the haziness of Fi extends into that of Ni. The only sure way to know is when I start inexplicably crying upon revelation of something precious lol.

One good example is when I was reading stories about ship's cats and how they developed bonds with the sailors on long journeys and often endured extreme conditions with them. By the end of each story, I always teared up at the image it leaves. It's like time collapses and the essences of the people and animals are still with me, or anywhere. I feel like they're eternalized in the tapestry of life and contributed something worthy of respect. Something that will be repeated again, maybe in a different form, to carry on their legacy.

That sounds to me like you have grasped something precious well beyond the immediate events of the story, which you have then reacted to with a powerful emotionally coloured interpretation of it. Putting it like this loses the sheer poetry of what you describe - apologies for that. Personally, I think that the separation between the functions we actually use, as described in the literature, is a necessary simplification in order to aid the conceptual exposition. It seems to me that In practice we blend our preferred functions together like ingredients in a baked cake.

That's what perennial wisdom is for me, in a way. It basically demands that I engage with multitude of philosophies to accomplish its aim, but I still like to linger on each new viewpoint to savor the stability it gives me before organically discovering the next step.

Yes - exactly how I feel about it. I think the power to suspend judgement in order to get the feel of a complex conceptual framework is a very important gift of Ni. It can be the case that something built on fallacies and nonsense can be a stepping stope to a profound insight that couldn't be reached without it. This seems to me to be one of the great roles of fantasy and science fiction literature for example.

I see what you mean John K. I think where I am coming from is that the rarer types and functions have greater potential power in society. It’s a bit like comparing the potential of a highly intelligent person with a person of low intelligence. Yes the bright person could do evil and be horrible while the low intelligence person could have a good heart and live morally. But if we factor out those other qualities, intelligence will always be a virtue to the individual and society on aggregate, even if there is a price to pay for the bright individual. No one would sensibly say intelligence isn’t important would they?

I think that it's not going to be easy to relate functional preferences to intelligence. There are different sorts of intelligence and you would need to go into great depth exploring it's various forms before being able to relate its expression meaningfully to the different functions. That does sound like an interesting thing to do. As an example, it would seem that intellectual intelligence is orthogonal to emotional intelligence, and you can possess either, neither or both without saying anything about how wise you are. I came across maths wizards at uni who were complete idiots in some ways lol.

What I think Ti is good at is zeroing in on the first principle. Trying to find a base that cannot be falsified, and then building your structure from there. But in order to do that, you obviously need to take objective reality into account. That's why I struggle to see the use of Ti in metaphysics, because it seems like there's no granite floor to build your structure on.

I cannot base my arguments on whether certain concept vibes with me or moves me to tears. Nothing does anyway. I mean there are things that vibe with me, for sure, and that reveals to you who you are. But they still need to be challenged to see if I can use them as building blocks.

Knowledge is just error correction. No theory is "true" , it's just a question if it has or has not been falsified. Even Einsten's general theory of relatively is not true, it just works for now because no one has been able to disprove it.

At the same time, some theories are useful, so I adopt them. Like MBTI. Here I don't even care for any sort of proof. Usefulness is enough of a proof.

It seems to me that Ti in metaphysics selects its givens in the same way that pure maths does. In maths, you use precedence and insight to choose a set of axioms, then assign arbitrary truth values to them and explore the consequences using the formal rules of logic. You 'validate' your axioms and the truth values you assign to them in a number of ways - are they independent of each other, do they have hidden contradictions in them, do they lead to useful conclusions or sterile ones? That sort of thing. It's a lot more stark in pure maths than in metaphysics but in some ways it seems to be the same sort of intellectual game. I got fed up of this in maths because I wanted to understand something about the roots of reality, but I think some of those guys are playing at crossword puzzles and computer games metaphorically speaking. I never moved on to metaphysics in a big way, because that too seemed to be just shoving language and symbols around, and I wanted to experience reality not talk about a synthesised model of it.

 

[John K]

Sounds like this book may be of some help, though you'll have to find one for your area

Spoiler: Young Love ?

I wonder if they include it in the book? Is there another volume for wandering traffic cones? They seem to go exploring at night too.

 

[Wyote]

Spoiler: Young Love ?

I wonder if they include it in the book? Is there another volume for wandering traffic cones? They seem to go exploring at night too.
View attachment 88474

 

[Roses In The Vineyard]

 

[larry806q]

Going with the flow is largely to blame for society's problems where despite there being countless individuals who could resolve at least help not only choose to do nothing at all but worse still actively profit off said problems such as America's fentanyl epidemic just as an example. Just think that those 130-200 point IQs going to waste when this civilization could have been visiting the stars decades ago instead are wasted on meaningless crap be it ideologies that are of no benefit never mind the monopolies that are destroying the planet. Hell if I had an 200 point IQ I would have actually accomplished something unlike the vast majority of the ideologues that spent their lives fluffing their egos on twitter. Got to hand it to them though as they fucked up the public education system for indoctrination thus pulling up the ladder so to speak so the majority under the age of 40 doesn't stand much of a chance in the globalized economy aside from the white collar privilege some got to enjoy.

WOW....you do understand the paradigm!