Intuition - Origin and Definition

A rapidly advancing theory on consciousness.

Read to the end to understand how this connects intuition, the mind, and the brain.

I've been watching the work by Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff for many years now and have believed what they are saying was correct. This does not go without saying that it lacked scientific proof to validate it as a viable theory with respect to consciousness. Penrose, a well known British mathematician, mathematical physicist, philosopher of science and Nobel Laureate and Hameroff, an American anesthesiologist and professor at Arizona university, teamed together with a theory called Orchestrated Objective Reduction in which quantum fields collapse within microtubials in the brain and that's what produces consciousness.

This theory took a step forward in April 2024 with a scientific study and experiments. (link) I'm not going to go into all of the details because it combines so many fields of science and can be difficult for many people to understand (video explaining it at the bottom of this post). I will say that the study / experiments are demonstrating a connection between anesthesia and these microtubials. It is also being suggested that Alzheimer's (and other forms of dementia), which results in a breakdown in consciousness, have a connection to these microtubials and associated buildup of proteins.

Now, you might be asking what this has to do with inutition, and I will admit that there is a specific route that I'm taking to get to this connection. Jung struggled with understanding intuition because there was no evidence to connect the brain with the mind, as such he had no alternative but to call it mystical or spiritual. With these studies and experiments we are starting to connect the dots between the brain and the mind through conscious awareness. This does not mean, yet, that microtubials are the source of consciousness, only that they are involved. It also does not mean that there isn't a mystical or spiritual side to the mind.

This leads me to the question I've been pondering, is Inuition in the brain or is it in the mind. Well, if we know that we can turn the mind (consciousness) on and off in the brain, and we know where it is happening then we can start to piece together what this means with respect to inuition. Here's the kicker, if intuition happens unconsciously, as has been suggest by Jung, then it should be able to function even when the brain is "turned off." Can the mind remember things and be aware when the person is completely anesthestisized and unaware of its surrounding? We need look no further than the operating rooms where anestesia is being applied and many people have reported very accurate out of body (OOB) experiences where they can recall what was being said and done in the operating room.

So, here we go:
1. There is a connecting point between the microtubials, anestesia, dementia, and consciousness.
2. Jung and many others have recognized a separation between the mind and the brain.
3. Jung recognized a connection between the unconscious mind and intuition.
4. The unconscious mind through anestesia can still be aware of its surroundings in a state that is disconnected from the brain and external to it - as demonstrated through OOB in the same environment (the operating room) where anestesia is being utilized.

I also find it interesting that Penrose and Hameroff have labled their theory Orchestrated Objective Reduction. By making it objective it is aligning itself with the external world and the brain rather than the subjective side and the mind. It's as if they are openly stating that the brain can be disconnected from the mind but they have no ability to alter the state of the subjective mind. This further suggests, from my perspective, that the mind is non-local and completely separate from the body and brain.

Here is a video to a science podcaster that has reviewed the new study if you're interested. Some of you may have watched some of his videos as he has been growing in popularity.


 
TomasM said:
This further suggests, from my perspective, that the mind is non-local and completely separate from the body and brain.
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What you are suggesting is the mind is spiritual. Please elaborate.
 
just me said:
What you are suggesting is the mind is spiritual. Please elaborate.
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Like you, I've always been a spiritual person, though there have been some major ebbs and flows across the course of my life. Even under those conditions, I never fully believed that the mind was something that was completely transcended, at least not in the way we think of it in our lives.

Me, like most INFJ's, always seem to be inquisitive and search for an understanding to the moment, the growth, the life, and for some of us beyond. We love to ask the question, why, and I think it benefits and torments many, some more than others. So, you might say that it has been a life quest of mine to understand the big "WHY." Understanding intuition really was focused on temperament and how people function, and to me this was especially important because I felt it would be helpful to everyone that is surrounded by it daily. To make sense of it wold be, well, a blessing.

I can't "suggest," that the mind is spiritual, because I don't know that for a fact, but I can say that the mind appears to be separate from the brain based on what I know inside and what science helps us understand about this world. However, my beliefs go far beyond what science tells me, yet when science aligns with what I already believe to be true it's like a big warm blanket in a cold room.

When I started this I wasn't looking for anything spiritual, but sometimes the journey brings little blessings that make me smile and reflect.
 
To say the mind is spiritual requires spiritual understanding. What would we call a non-spiritual mind? Worldly mind? That does not separate the capabilities of a mind as either spiritual or non-spiritual, either.

Does a mind stay spiritual all the time? Non-spiritual? There seems to be distractions we must confront, but maybe some minds can and some cannot. To classify a mind as spiritual maybe necessitates an individual look at each mind. We can study a thousand minds and the answers would be all over the chart. Don't wish to cause confusion, but I must state the heart and mind of an individual can influence each other to be more spiritual or less spiritual. We know what a heart is, though we use the same word "heart" as an organ and as an understanding that moves us into directions we could not imagine.

Speaking of imagination: are our thoughts, feelings, actions merely thoughts? No. The hearts of mankind and the minds of mankind may possibly be our spirits. That would better explain how we can have strong connections with another spirit. We could add to this our soul. to be continued
 
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Mental phenomena such as happiness, hope, love and ‘spiritual’ experiences can also be explained in terms of neurological activity. copied from "Why the Mind is more than the Brain" by Steve Taylor

Interesting. Manifestation is key for me to understand these things. Neuroimaging and scans possibly tell us where and why certain thoughts start, but the thought of picking up an ink pen manifests itself when we actually pick up the pen. What about the spirit of man? Can a man embellish his spiritual thoughts so they are manifested? Yes. This may require connection to the spirit. and feel the comfort in his body like good bacteria caused from the entire body to make everything work as it is supposed to.

Looking at a different side of things, we are not all born the same. We cannot judge the mind without information, so we test. Our understanding at its current levels is theory, in my opinion. Results may not show everything we need for a complete diagnosis.

What about good attitudes and good living? Most have less problems because our bodies and mindsets are not fighting inside. I choose anger as an example of how unhealthy it can become for those who cannot let go of it. Hatred can cause us problems. It can eat away at your insides over the years. Doctors use tests to try and find what is wrong and try to treat it. The causes of the illness(es) may be in the mind, so they call it mental. However,
the causes may be your body is not functioning all on the same road of morality and beliefs. Tossing spiritual things aside, as many do, will damage the bridge over understanding how it all works. Blessed are the meek. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. Blessed are the merciful. Blessed are the pure in heart. Blessed are the peacemakers. Judge not. Forgive.

I perceive a great connection in good health and following Jesus' teachings. He is the great physician. If you leave those teachings and results out of your diagnosis, you are missing part of being a human made in the image of God.
 
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just me said:
Mental phenomena such as happiness, hope, love and ‘spiritual’ experiences can also be explained in terms of neurological activity. copied from "Why the Mind is more than the Brain" by Steve Taylor

Interesting. Manifestation is key for me to understand these things. Neuroimaging and scans possibly tell us where and why certain thoughts start, but the thought of picking up an ink pen manifests itself when we actually pick up the pen. What about the spirit of man? Can a man embellish his spiritual thoughts so they are manifested? Yes. This may require connection to the spirit. and feel the comfort in his body like good bacteria caused from the entire body to make everything work as it is supposed to.

Looking at a different side of things, we are not all born the same. We cannot judge the mind without information, so we test. Our understanding at its current levels is theory, in my opinion. Results may not show everything we need for a complete diagnosis.

What about good attitudes and good living? Most have less problems because our bodies and mindsets are not fighting inside. I choose anger as an example of how unhealthy it can become for those who cannot let go of it. Hatred can cause us problems. It can eat away at your insides over the years. Doctors use tests to try and find what is wrong and try to treat it. The causes of the illness(es) may be in the mind, so they call it mental. However,
the causes may be your body is not functioning all on the same road of morality and beliefs. Tossing spiritual things aside, as many do, will damage the bridge over understanding how it all works. Blessed are the meek. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. Blessed are the merciful. Blessed are the pure in heart. Blessed are the peacemakers. Judge not. Forgive.

I perceive a great connection in good health and following Jesus' teachings. He is the great physician. If you leave those teachings and results out of your diagnosis, you are missing part of being a human made in the image of God.
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Thank you for the response. I was trying to send you a message but it appears that I am not allowed to send things to you, not sure why. Regardless, I typed it out and then saved it after just in case. The message was gratitude and thanks for some of the things you have said. These were things I needed to hear.

I will try to respond to some of your latest words after I have had the opportunity to process some of it.
 
TomasM said:
1) What exactly is intuition and how accurate is it?
2) Is intuition derived from both genetic and environmental factors and to what extent does each contribute?
3) Since it is a dichotomy does intuition extend itself from a deficiency in sensory function or is it an extra-sensory state of its own?
4) Can intuition be developed?
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1. INTUITION = SUBCONSCIOUS INTELLIGENCE
The intelligence your BODY+BRAIN is able to, without your conscious activity.
This is my own definition. I don't think you will find it elsewhere.

2. Intuition is genetic, but can be suppressed by education, as we already know.
Can also be cultivated by education.

3. Intuition is extra sensory. An extra set of detection signals. The sixth sense.
More complex than just ESP (extrasensory perception). Can have lots of different 'flavors'.
Do not exclude sensory signals.
If you are focusing on your sixth sense, you may not detect what comes from the other 5 senses.

4. Yes, just like other senses, you can become able to listen like an orchestra director or feel like a blind person.
 
For me, intuition is something like a self-programmable instinct. We humans are able to make decisions over and above our instincts. Animals are not as familiar with this.
It has already been briefly mentioned here that we usually think in a linear way. This is due to language and the need to pronounce one word after the other. Every mathematical formula is structured in this way. There is a fixed order in which calculations have to be carried out. This serial sequence is analytical and logical, but it is also very slow. We are forced to wait for the end of a statement in order to understand what it is all about. (You should have seen the movie Arrival)
In contrast, an intuitive way of thinking proceeds on several levels. Like this picture of the landscape, intuition is able to process "non-serial data". And even in an incredible unprovable way that one can even be able to understand a thing not only in three dimensions, but also forward and backward in time. Possibly even in dimensions for which we don't even have names yet. I can only speculate as to how this might happen. I have had the aforementioned thoughts of Penrose et al. myself for many years. I assume that the brain is a connection to other dimensions. (Perhaps the quantum world) The brain is only an interface between consciousness and the material world. If you switch off certain parts of the brain, information that is processed in this part can no longer be transported to the conscious mind. Of course, it is then impossible to distinguish whether the experience of this information comes from the brain or from the consciousness hidden behind it. This is similar to the terminals on large computers. If a terminal is broken, the computer still runs. You just have to go to another terminal to communicate with it.
Back to intuition: I've had a lot of unusual experiences in my life. I have known things that I could not have known. I've been warned of problems in dreams, or I've guessed several times in advance where a speed camera was going to be, for example. I have an extraordinary intuition when it comes to technical problems. When someone tells me about a technical problem, I see a movie in my mind's eye of how the problem could be solved. Or I once sat in front of my PC and wanted to try out whether I would really be able to immerse myself in the functions of the PC in my mind. I closed my eyes and imagined the circuits first. Suddenly I realized that something was wrong in the computer. I opened my eyes and saw that the computer had just crashed. You can believe this story or not, I don't really care.
 
We are facing a Tropical Storm or Hurricane tonight. It has been slowly making its way. I always monitor these closely, but have paid this one little attention. We are supposed to be in its path and possibly receive up to 15" of rain.

Is it waiting and slowing for a reason?

Go away, Debby. Cast your lot and be on your way. Why can you not send your rains to all the fires far away from here? That would make me think of it as a useful rain. Get thee behind us and go away. My mind is not made up as to how or why to use you. I show no anger as of now. Why am I not bothered with my intuition? Take care of our wildlife and flying friends. Keep your flood waters and surges to a minimum. Take care you not harm us.
 
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Not entirely about intuition, but I felt that it brings up some good points about who and what we are as people. CG was cautious with his words for good reason but if you listen to what he is saying, between the words, you begin to realize that he understands the truth.

 
Sorn said:
For me, intuition is something like a self-programmable instinct. We humans are able to make decisions over and above our instincts. Animals are not as familiar with this.
It has already been briefly mentioned here that we usually think in a linear way. This is due to language and the need to pronounce one word after the other. Every mathematical formula is structured in this way. There is a fixed order in which calculations have to be carried out. This serial sequence is analytical and logical, but it is also very slow. We are forced to wait for the end of a statement in order to understand what it is all about. (You should have seen the movie Arrival)
In contrast, an intuitive way of thinking proceeds on several levels. Like this picture of the landscape, intuition is able to process "non-serial data". And even in an incredible unprovable way that one can even be able to understand a thing not only in three dimensions, but also forward and backward in time. Possibly even in dimensions for which we don't even have names yet. I can only speculate as to how this might happen. I have had the aforementioned thoughts of Penrose et al. myself for many years. I assume that the brain is a connection to other dimensions. (Perhaps the quantum world) The brain is only an interface between consciousness and the material world. If you switch off certain parts of the brain, information that is processed in this part can no longer be transported to the conscious mind. Of course, it is then impossible to distinguish whether the experience of this information comes from the brain or from the consciousness hidden behind it. This is similar to the terminals on large computers. If a terminal is broken, the computer still runs. You just have to go to another terminal to communicate with it.
Back to intuition: I've had a lot of unusual experiences in my life. I have known things that I could not have known. I've been warned of problems in dreams, or I've guessed several times in advance where a speed camera was going to be, for example. I have an extraordinary intuition when it comes to technical problems. When someone tells me about a technical problem, I see a movie in my mind's eye of how the problem could be solved. Or I once sat in front of my PC and wanted to try out whether I would really be able to immerse myself in the functions of the PC in my mind. I closed my eyes and imagined the circuits first. Suddenly I realized that something was wrong in the computer. I opened my eyes and saw that the computer had just crashed. You can believe this story or not, I don't really care.
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We think in a very similar way about these things. Thank you for sharing, because sometimes it can be difficult to share when skepticism is so prevalent.
 
just me said:
We are facing a Tropical Storm or Hurricane tonight. It has been slowly making its way. I always monitor these closely, but have paid this one little attention. We are supposed to be in its path and possibly receive up to 15" of rain.

Is it waiting and slowing for a reason?

Go away, Debby. Cast your lot and be on your way. Why can you not send your rains to all the fires far away from here? That would make me think of it as a useful rain. Get thee behind us and go away. My mind is not made up as to how or why to use you. I show no anger as of now. Why am I not bothered with my intuition? Take care of our wildlife and flying friends. Keep your flood waters and surges to a minimum. Take care you not harm us.
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Stay safe friend.
 
FREE WILL, INTUITION AND CHOICE

It has been scientifically studied that the brain starts to initiate a choice prior to us consciously knowing about the choice. This is so much the case that MRI systems can determine what choice will be made. If this is true [as they say it is] then what is triggering this brain activity to begin and do we have free will if we are not aware of our choice prior to making it. This becomes more complicated when we consider complex awareness and choices like intuition. If intuition is subconscious or unconscious awareness and all of our choices are occurring unconsciously then are we really living our lives through our bodies or is our body merely a way for us to acknowledge or gain some value from the choice(s).

Here is a video that discusses the research of free will and choice. I'm still processing several things about these discoveries and how it relates to other things we have discussed in this thread, but I wanted to put the information out there for everyone to process in parallel.

 
Have you also read the Wikipedia articles on this?
I don't think such an experiment says anything at all about free will. Of course impulses come from the unconscious. But these impulses are the result of my whole life and my personal character. Of course, the brain tries to use this information to make quick decisions. And then, to what extent is pressing a button important in my life? There are completely different things that I think about for years and then make a decision.
 
Sorn said:
Have you also read the Wikipedia articles on this?
I don't think such an experiment says anything at all about free will. Of course impulses come from the unconscious. But these impulses are the result of my whole life and my personal character. Of course, the brain tries to use this information to make quick decisions. And then, to what extent is pressing a button important in my life? There are completely different things that I think about for years and then make a decision.
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THIS IS WORTH THE WATCH (watch the previous video first)

I haven't looked at Wikipedia for information on this, but if you want to bring some information to the thread detailing some of it then I would thoroughly enjoy collaborating with you about it.

I know that the first reaction to any impediment to free will is generally denial. Nobody wants to believe that they don't have full control of their own experience. In fact, I saw the information I posted many years ago and yesterday I was processing my thoughts about intuition when I recalled that study. I remember when I first saw the information I had a somewhat visceral response to their publication and explanation. I immediately wanted to dismiss it. Still, it kept coming back to me for the next few days, so I asked myself, "what does it matter and is there anything I can do with that information." The answer for me was NOTHING. So what if it's coming from somewhere unknown, and then I decided to move on to other things I was working on at that time.

You said that pressing a button isn't important but I don't think it's the button pressing that had value in the experiment - it was the discovery that there was something about choice that was occurring prior to awareness.

Moving forward to today. I was doing some research on the heart and its role in anxiety in another thread I've been writing. My contention (for quite some time now) has been that there is likely a connection to the mind through the heart rather than the brain. No, I haven't concluded that this is the case but today information showed up that is making it more solidified. At the same time the information provided details about this post as it related to free-will / intuition in relation to our discussion.

The video talks about the heart being an information processing center for multiple physiological reasons. It also elaborated on another study that analyzed responses to random future information and they determined that the body began to respond to information 6 seconds prior to an image being presented to the subject.

1726439355788.webp​
Part of the reason that I believed the connection to the mind was coming from the heart was related to how large amounts of nerves in the brain and the gut are divided across the body and how the heart is at the midpoint in the body between that nerve activity. Cognitive thoughts are coming from the brain and feelings are coming from the gut. I was further thinking about how toroid shapes are present throughout nature and I'm constantly looking at how that shapes scientifically impacts our lives.

With that in mind, take a look at the video and try to think about it objectively. I don't expect any agreements but from my experience, the skeptics are generally the best people to talk with because their efforts generally produce the best fruit.

He references a study titled The Electrophysiology of Intuition Study in the description of the video. I haven't looked it up yet but I intend to explore it. Interested?
 
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Ok, so I found the research details on The Electrophysiology of Intuition Study listed above and am providing it here:

Electrophysiological Evidence of Intuition: Part 2. A System-Wide Process LINK
Electrophysiological Evidence of Intuition: Part 1. The Surprising Role of the Heart LINK

The PDF's are available for download from researchgate.net but I'm only going to provide the conclusions for each of the parts listed above in this post.

Part 1 Conclusion:
Overall, we have independently replicated and extended previous research documenting pre-
stimulus responses. It appears that the heart is involved in the processing and decoding of intuitive informa-
tion. Once the prestimulus information is received in the psychophysiologic systems, it appears to be processed
in the same way as conventional sensory input. This study presents compelling evidence that the body’s per-
ceptual apparatus is continuously scanning the future. To account for the results presented in Parts 1 and 2,
Part 3 will develop a theory based on holographic principles explaining how intuitive perception accesses a
field of energy into which information about future events is spectrally enfolded.

Part 2 Conclusion:
Overall, our data suggest that the heart and brain, together, are involved in receiving, pro-
cessing, and decoding intuitive information. On the basis of these results and those of other research, it would
thus appear that intuitive perception is a system-wide process in which both the heart and brain (and possibly
other bodily systems) play a critical role. To account for the study’s results, Part 3 will develop a theory based
on holographic principles explaining how intuitive perception accesses a field of energy into which informa-
tion about “future” events is spectrally enfolded.
 
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it's not just the brain that is involved in processing information, but the whole body.
The old mechanistic view of the human being, which degrades us to a mechanical gearbox, has no meaning for me.
From my own experience, I know that it is not only this scanning or predicting that takes place, but also direct foreknowledge. However, such a statement would make any physicist's face flush with rage. The dogma that the future cannot be predicted is simply too deeply ingrained in the beliefs of some scientists.
I found an interesting article on the actual topic mentioned above, although it is in German. Libet's experiment is discussed again there. There seems to have been a lot of wrong interpretation by the media, which of course immediately jumped on it because someone was able to ‘prove’ that humans do not have free will.

https://scilogs.spektrum.de/mensche...er-wirklich-ueber-willensfreiheit-herausfand/
 
Sorn said:
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it's not just the brain that is involved in processing information, but the whole body.
The old mechanistic view of the human being, which degrades us to a mechanical gearbox, has no meaning for me.
From my own experience, I know that it is not only this scanning or predicting that takes place, but also direct foreknowledge. However, such a statement would make any physicist's face flush with rage. The dogma that the future cannot be predicted is simply too deeply ingrained in the beliefs of some scientists.
I found an interesting article on the actual topic mentioned above, although it is in German. Libet's experiment is discussed again there. There seems to have been a lot of wrong interpretation by the media, which of course immediately jumped on it because someone was able to ‘prove’ that humans do not have free will.

https://scilogs.spektrum.de/mensche...er-wirklich-ueber-willensfreiheit-herausfand/
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I'll give it a read.

Just because the "free-will" doesn't appear to be coming from our local body doesn't mean that it's not still us. It just requires a leap of faith and that scares people.
 
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