Is capitalism the best model?

[shafishstix]

Ha ha, we are of like minds bamf. You said exactly what i was going to say, "Hell no". I believe (correct me if im wrong) that capitalism's roots were where the government would contract the work of a major undertaking (such as the construction of a bridge, or rail line) to the company who could most efficiently/competively do the work.

But the capitalism of today is quite a different monstrosity from back then.

 

[Orion]

My co-worker who I have known my whole life will not teach me how to do the data storage at my company. At first he was helping me with little stuff but lately he has been ignoring my texts and calls. Once I got my hands on a storage administration book and my questions started getting more technical he stopped trying to help me.
He is scared I am going to take his job.

Nobody at my work will teach each other and we are all holding each other back. Our skilled workers refuse to teach the less skilled ones because they are afraid of losing value. I think this is one of the less obvious reasons that capitalism sucks balls. We need to find a better balance in our country, or come to a global agreement. Because the world feels like it's spiraling out of control right now.

Wow.. This is incredibly alien to me and very sad. A big part of the attraction of learning and developing skills in my areas of interest and career, is the fact that I can use those skills to teach other people. I love teaching and passing on knowledge and skills. I love that I can help people learn something new through understanding and effort- it's a big part of who I am.

 

[Barnabas]

Ideally yes, practically no. But then again that can be said for all systems.

 

[invisible]

Wait, what? I think I'm misunderstanding what you're saying about taxes for the wealthy

uh, ok. what did you think i was saying? maybe i can clarify.

 

[Chamomile]

wealthy people don't get taxed and they are allowed to accumulate their wealth that they have earned.

I realize we're in different countries so that might be why; I have no idea how it works in Australia. But in the US the more money you make, the higher your tax %.

The 2011 tax brackets are:
Tax Bracket......Single......................Married Filing Jointly........Head of Household
10% Bracket........$0

 

[Norton]

Socialism taxes hard work, innovation, and initiative. It suppresses risk-taking. It allocates resources inefficiently and leads to a stodgy system unresponsive to market demands and fluctuations. Capitalism provides incentive for hard work, innovation, initiative and risk-taking. A capitalist system with just the right balance between regulation and laissez-faire is optimum. It generates new wealth most effectively thereby benefiting the greater good. An optimum capitalist system depends on a strong middle-class and a fair system of regulation and rules. Unfortunately, in the US the economic position of the middle class has been eroding for decades and this is more a result of less than brilliant voters who regularly vote against their own best interests. It is not a coincidence that this is occurring concurrent with a wave of anti-intellectualism. "Regulation" has become a dirty word among many whom it would protect. Indeed, many people who couldn't afford mortgages, lied to the lying mortgage lenders to produce a mortgage crisis for which both sides are culpable.

Sure there are greedy, powerful bosses and CEO's. But these people are everywhere, in capitalist, socialist, communist, and other societies. Capitalist societies do not have a monopoly on assholes.

Don't think in slogans. Capitalism is a system that can be made good or bad by how people govern themselves and by the ethical standards they uphold. Good laws are what keep capitalism, and all other economic systems, in check.

 

[~jet]

Not sure what men and women have to do with it exactly; people are people and each individual gets to choose who and what they are. Trying to force men to be men and women to be women is not freedom, even if most of them will choose to be anyways.

But that is separate from capitalism. There, the answer is... no. It is ~not~ the best system... the issue is, no one knows what the best system is probably because it hasn't been invented yet.

In a capitalist society, the goal is to make profit. Capitalism itself is the practice of using money to make more money, period. In all of America there are really only a few thousand true capitalists in a population of over 300 million people. The rest LABOR for their living, regardless of whether that labor is digging ditches, farming, serving tables, programming a computer, or flying a jet. It's labor.

In a system that says money is king (as does capitalism), the incentive is to make as much as possible. Not be as good as possible, or as kind as possible, or as healthy as possible... just as rich as possible. While being rich can help one do things that make them happy, see doctors to keep them healthy, get food that is healthy, etc, the processes of GETTING that money are often very very bad for everyone else because, wealth is finite. There is only so much food. There is only so much water. There is only so much land and there is only so much air. And there is already not enough to go around... so, for one person to be wealthy, a thousand others have to be poor. That person has to take wealth AWAY. Capitalism encourages this.

Capitalism encourages abusing the many for the benefit of the few. Yes there are good-hearted capitalists. Yes, there are entrepreneurs who made a lot of money doing good things. But entrepreneurs existed for 1000s of years before capitalism ever did. The system you describe simply makes it easier for bad people to get rich by harming large groups of otherwise honest laborers.

A better system would reward innovation, invention, entrepreneurship, et cetera, while also protecting the every-day worker. For a while, America did that... reforms made after the great depression (the last time bankers had their way, oddly enough) in the mid to late 30s allowed for 40 straight years of solid growth, good wages, good health, low crime, secure people, etc. It wasn't a perfect time, but it was the most universally prosperous time my country ever knew; a time defined by strict rules regarding wealth. It did not prevent it, but it kept reins on it... and as a result, the working class had the best living any working class has ever known in any country in recorded history.

The sad part is that the bankers started getting their way again with Reagan and Thatcher, and things have declined back into the fiasco-frenzy zone that led to the great depression and now the great recession. Worse, even though our government threw money at the problem and has helped reverse the trend a little bit (we're not losing jobs anymore, but not exactly gaining them back at lightning speed either), the underlying flaws in the system have not been fixed, and the 'conservatives' (in quotes because they don't actually DO anything conservative, and give otherwise good every-day conservatives an undeserved bad name) are busily trying to destroy what's left of labor-friendly systems such that by the time they're done, the underclass will be little better than frightened slave-labor once again. They're pressing as hard as they can to become Kings ruling over Serfs instead of Business Owners employing well-paid workers.

Apologies for taking an american viewpoint on this, but that's the one I have to give. I recently visited Europe and saw that they have not yet fallen as far as America has, but the same pressures are at work there, too... take security away from the workers so that they'll be desperate enough to work for as little as possible, both in wages and in benefits. That way, capitalists can maximize profit (in tandem with cutting every possible corner, making poor products, poisoning the land and water, and getting away with every possible cheat they can.) Money is the goal, after all.

 

[donkeybals]

Idealistically, pure capitalism would be best.

Realistically, the right degree of socialized capitalism.

 

[~jet]

I realize we're in different countries so that might be why; I have no idea how it works in Australia. But in the US the more money you make, the higher your tax %.

The 2011 tax brackets are:
Tax Bracket......Single......................Married Filing Jointly........Head of Household
10% Bracket........$0 – $8,500............... $0 – $17,000................$0 – $12,150
15% Bracket........$8,500 – $34,500.........$17,000 – $69,000.........$12,150 – $46,250
25% Bracket........$34,500 – $83,600.......$69,000 – $139,350........$46,250 – $119,400
28% Bracket........$83,600 – $174,400......$139,350 – $212,300......$119,400 – $193,350
33% Bracket........$174,400 – $379,150....$212,300 – $379,150......$193,350 – $379,150
35% Bracket........$379,150+..................$379,150+...................$379,150+

So to compare the bottom and top of the brackets:
Taxable Income...............Tax
$0 – $8,500........................10% of taxable income
$379,150+.........................$102,574 plus 35% of excess over $379,150

The higher incomes lose significantly more of their earnings (~1/3) by percentage than the not-so-wealthy (1/10). Does it work differently there?

That's both true and not true... the lowest tax bracket pays so little because the cost of living is so high... if they didn't, they'd starve to death. Some are anyways. In the 50s, a high school janitor could afford to cloth, house, and feed a medium sized family by himself, but now if both parents did that job in double shifts, they'd barely make ends meet at all. At the same time, taxes on the wealthy were MUCH higher... peaking out at some 90 odd percent on any TAKE HOME PAY (people confuse this with business income either out of ignorance or intentionally to obfuscate the debate) in excess of what in today's money would be 3.5million a year. Up to that point they'd be paying in the 30s and 40s, but on amounts above it, 70s to 90s.

The net effect was, they dodged the bracket by reinvesting that money into their businesses and/or communities/charities. Their workers made more and got better benefits, and as a result could afford to buy the very products their businesses were making. Now, people have to go deeply into debt just to buy the faulty goods multinational CEOs ask poor chinese/indonesian laborers to make because the upper tax bracket dropped back down to into the 30s, which incentivized CEOs to make as much as they possible could rather than reinvest wisely. The net result was a financial dagger in the back and money-blood gushing out of the economy's wound, and speculation and gambling not just with money, but people's lives.

Worse, true capitalists use money to make money. Stocks, Hedge Funds, etc... the maximum tax they pay on dividends and stock sales is 15%, and since they can hide their entire take home pay inside these instruments, they're effectively paying less than half the tax percentages that their own secretaries do (a famous quote now from Warren Buffet himself.) As a result (and because it's cheaper to ship good jobs to areas where labor is cheap and desperate), the burden of paying for civilization shifts far too much to the worker -- the CEOs and their corporations no longer pay but the tiniest fraction of what they used to. Further, you get corps like Exxon and GE who cook the books so effectively that even they (and their CEOs) pay a grand total of 0 in annual taxes, but still get back hundreds of millions to tens of billions in subsidies, tax refunds, and the like. The workers (who no longer have reliable or good paying jobs) are the only resource left to mine and fleece for the money to pay for all this welfare-for-billionaires... and thus people get poorer and poorer and more and more desperate and willing to take any job, no matter how abusive, poor paying, and un-benefited they are. Advantage: rich-guy.

It's a race to the bottom for all except the top one tenth of one percent of the population, and it's a crime against humanity in general. Not only do we need to roll back and end the bush tax cuts, but the reagan tax cuts as well... they started this tailspin and I'd really like it not to take another great depression to wake people up to the fact that run-away

 

[bamf]

To briefly sum up my beliefs:

No war but class war
Food, not bombs
Eat the rich

yada yada yada (insert other "radical" stuff here)

 

[Nixie]

That's both true and not true... the lowest tax bracket pays so little because the cost of living is so high... if they didn't, they'd starve to death. Some are anyways. In the 50s, a high school janitor could afford to cloth, house, and feed a medium sized family by himself, but now if both parents did that job in double shifts, they'd barely make ends meet at all. At the same time, taxes on the wealthy were MUCH higher... peaking out at some 90 odd percent on any TAKE HOME PAY (people confuse this with business income either out of ignorance or intentionally to obfuscate the debate) in excess of what in today's money would be 3.5million a year. Up to that point they'd be paying in the 30s and 40s, but above it, 70s to 90s.

The net effect was, they dodged the bracket by reinvesting that money into their businesses and/or communities/charities. Their workers made more and got better benefits, and as a result could afford to buy the very products their businesses were making. Now, people have to go deeply into debt just to buy the faulty goods multinational CEOs ask poor chinese/indonesian laborers to make because the upper tax bracket dropped by down to into the 30s, which incentivized them to make as much as they possible could rather than reinvest. The net result was a financial dagger in the back and money-blood gushing out of the economy.

Worse, true capitalists use money to make money. Stocks, Hedge Funds, etc... they maximum tax they pay on dividends and stock sales is 15%, and since they can hide their entire take home pay inside these instruments, they're effectively paying less than half the tax percentages that their own secretaries are. As a result (and because it's cheaper to ship good jobs to areas where labor is cheap and desperate), the burden of paying for civilization shifts to the worker since the CEOs and their corporations no longer pay but the tiniest fraction of what they used to. Further, you get corps like Exxon and GE who cook the books so effectively that even they (and their CEOs) pay a grand total of 0 in annual taxes, they get back hundreds of millions to tens of billions in subsidies, tax refunds, and the like. The workers (who no longer have reliable or good paying jobs) are the only resource left who fleece for the money to pay for all this... and this people get poorer and poorer and more and more desperate and willing to take any job, no matter how abusing, poor paying, and un-benefited they are.

It's a race to the bottom for all except the top one tend of one percent of the population, and it's a crime against humanity. Not only do we need to roll back and end the bush tax cuts, but the reagan tax cuts as well... they started this tailspin and I'd really like it not to take another great depression to wake people up to the fact that run-away

 

[Phage]

I say take what you need and pass around the extra. Just like food...

 

[~jet]

Idealistically, pure capitalism would be best.

Realistically, the right degree of socialized capitalism.

What is pure capitalism, though?

I do tend to agree, though, on the second part... Civilization isn't civilized if people are preying upon one another in the name of profit... but it can't advance either if no one wants to strive to be bigger and better than they are. There has to be some kind of balance between the two so that people do reach for the stars without looking upon their neighbors as little better than meat and fuel.

 

[Chamomile]

That's both true and not true...

I'm not sure what you mean, which aspect is untrue?

I wasn't commenting on the rates or factoring in fraudulent or 'loop-hole' activity, simply what the income tax is if the rules are followed. I felt like it was pretty straightforward about Invisible's quote that I was addressing, I'm just not sure what you're getting at with the partly true stuff.

 

[~jet]

*swoons* Marry me [MENTION=3019]~jet[/MENTION]; ! I need the tax break...

=3

Sorry I was away... was in europe for two weeks. A couple things were worse than I am accustomed to here in America, but overall I was impressed with how much healthier and better protected they were. Even Greece, supposedly at the bottom of the wealth pile and in dire straits, was doing a better job of taking care of it's working class than we are here in the states. Healthy food, individual gardens, solar and wind power everywhere you looked... when the manure hits the fans, they're basic needs wills till be well maintained. If the economy stopped here in the US, today... there would be riots in the streets over cheetos and bottled high fructose corn soda, since so few these days even grow a vegetable garden, much less run what isn't a corporate owned farm, or have their own means of producing electricity, properly understand passive solar heating, etc.

Wow, I'm a real ray of sunshine. Sorry =3

 

[~jet]

I'm not sure what you mean, which aspect is untrue?

I wasn't commenting on the rates or factoring in fraudulent or 'loop-hole' activity, simply what the income tax is if the rules are followed. I felt like it was pretty straightforward about Invisible's quote that I was addressing, I'm just not sure what you're getting at with the partly true stuff.

Oh, the part about the highest earners paying the largest percentages. The capitalists are only paying 15%, and thats when they don't find loopholes (which most do.) Plus, I thought it was important to underscore WHY the desperately poor pay such a low percentage.

 

[~jet]

I say take what you need and pass around the extra. Just like food...

yuh yuh yuh; that's just it... even when we imposed really HEAVY taxes on personal income over today's equivalent of 3.5mil a year, we still allowed people to take home the majority of what they made under 3.5mil a year... how is that NOT incredibly rich by any but the most obscene and unsustainable standards?

Even if my business made 250 billion a year, I personally just don't need that kind of money (3.5mil/yr) for me and just for me.

 

[Chamomile]

Oh, the part about the highest earners paying the largest percentages. The capitalists are only paying 15%, and thats when they don't find loopholes (which most do.) Plus, I thought it was important to underscore WHY the desperately poor pay such a low percentage.

Gotcha, Invisible and me were still figuring out if I had misunderstood so I wasn't bothering anything but that. I think if the thread would go haywire if we all got into our opinions on tax lol

 

[54192&#cmy]

It seems like something is wrong in my country. We all feel hopeless, unless you are rich. We have a culture that says, "if you don't want the job, there are a million others who would be happy to take it". There is no accountability. There is no self-esteem.

My co-worker who I have known my whole life will not teach me how to do the data storage at my company. At first he was helping me with little stuff but lately he has been ignoring my texts and calls. Once I got my hands on a storage administration book and my questions started getting more technical he stopped trying to help me.
He is scared I am going to take his job.

Nobody at my work will teach each other and we are all holding each other back. Our skilled workers refuse to teach the less skilled ones because they are afraid of losing value. I think this is one of the less obvious reasons that capitalism sucks balls. We need to find a better balance in our country, or come to a global agreement. Because the world feels like it's spiraling out of control right now.

Pollution, greed, war, and the insecurity. So many people feel useless, they feel like they are nothing more than a replaceable human resource. We need to get back to simplicity and self-respect. Woman feel like they are useless once they are out of their 20's. They see no value in age and wisdom. They compare themselves to these stupid women on TV. Men aren't men anymore, there is no honor and respect. No accountability. Men with no courage are walking around all over the place, female puppies.

What ever happened to the days when men were men and women were women???

Well the generations before you decided to rock the boat. AKA the 60's. They changed society. And this is what we have now. Change it if you don't like it. I don't like it either. It's why I try to act different. Like I was raised to act. Men are not men today. And neither are women. Women don't want men it seems. And if all you want is to screw a woman how can you know her. And if all you want to do is manipulate your man is he the one you love? No wonder divorce is so high. No one respects and loves one another anymore. Even their neighbors. Ever notice how society judges more and things just keep getting worse?

As far as capitalism goes its a reflection of society. So it's society that is greedy and wrong not capitalism. If we had strong morals and beliefs things would be different. For now anything goes and this is what you get.

 

[~jet]

Gotcha, Invisible and me were still figuring out if I had misunderstood so I wasn't bothering anything but that. I think if the thread would go haywire if we all got into our opinions on tax lol

No worries! I feel bad harping so much on one topic, but as I watch the country fall apart around me, I can't help but want to grab people by the shoulders and ask them to wake up. I don't know how to put enough of a positive spin on this to make people WANT to fix the system before it is completely broken, so my fear is that it'll take something on the order of a french revolution to get the good days back again.