is minimum wage exploitation?

[Apone]

I think minimum wage can only be classified as exploitation if you are forced to work for those wages against your will.
If you agree to work for those wages, how is it exploitation?

Exploitation is using an unfair situation to your own advantage... and I don't think there's any argument that we need jobs in order to survive and the jobs that are available aren't enough/the best.

On the other hand, someone has already said that a lot of minimum wage jobs were never designed to be prestigious or provide great lives for people... I don't think that there have ever been non-management retail employees who have prospered in life, because what they're doing doesn't demand any kind of specialization or talent.

The problem probably isn't that people are being exploited at the jobs they have, it's that there aren't enough opportunities to get the kinds of jobs that are of real value to society.

 

[Apone]

third world unions? there a funny idea, wonder if they be just as corrupt as our first world ones were when they became a thing

I was under the impression that the corruption came later... the Mafia saw an opportunity to get into politics and took it.

 

[bamf]

I'm pretty sure that the vilification of the unions is mostly a right wing media propaganda thing...

Definitely a media thing, but in getting to know better and better how teacher unions work in my state, I've found myself disgusted that they call themselves a 'union'. Rather than being horizontally organized with everyone's benefit in mind, the unions I personally have seen the inside of (and I'm not extrapolating this to all unions) are vertical in their power structure, and mimic the very institution that they are supposedly fighting against. As a strong and vocal supporter of worker's rights, it makes me queasy to see how much of a fraud some unions have become. We need to reorganize our unions. Granted, the hate directed at them in the media isn't going to help.

 

[Barnabas]

I'm pretty sure that the vilification of the unions is mostly a right wing media propaganda thing...

Think of it more as spin, with some unions being worse then other and other being fine and dandy, but I'm talking more about the days of the mafia on the twenties and thirties

I was under the impression that the corruption came later... the Mafia saw an opportunity to get into politics and took it.

Not sure, don't know enough of the history of it.

 

[alice144]

If you agree to work for those wages, how is it exploitation?

Well, you semi-agree. Management tends to bully employees subtly and not-so-subtly into accepting lower wages. Most of the work I've done has been semi-unskilled labor, and even with several years of experience under my belt and certifications and whatnot, I still get a lot of shit for asking even a few dollars above $7.25, which is still not living wage. So I don't think it's quite as simple as that.

which is in no way political but was perceived as a potential threat to the Chinese government because of its influence (and because religions actually threaten loyalty to the government), so now the practice is outlawed and the followers are 'disappearing'.

Yeah, but people won't put up with that shit forever. Soviet Russia didn't last forever. You could argue that the guy they have now is not so great either, but Putin is a good cut above Stalin at least. Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic here, but I tend to think that people are basically the same. We wouldn't put up with that here, why should they?

Meanwhile in America, people are protesting the fact that they have to pay for university (in Tanzania they actually have to pay for ALL of their education-- good luck buying that iPhone)

Right, but student debt IS really bad, and, incidentally, in most european and arab nations, university is free, or at least mostly free. I'm not saying that university should be a right, but it's unfortunate that it has turned into a business.

 

[Skathac]

I wish I made 8.50 lmao, as it is on a slow day I'm earning my employer around a thousand dollars...I'm being modest as there are days we'll process over five grand in an eight hour period. So on a slow day where my employer is earning say a thousand dollars out of me in an eight hour period, he's paying me sixty dollars for eight hours of my time.

Some people feel that is fair.

 

[Apone]

I wish I made 8.50 lmao, as it is on a slow day I'm earning my employer around a thousand dollars...I'm being modest as there are days we'll process over five grand in an eight hour period. So on a slow day where my employer is earning say a thousand dollars out of me in an eight hour period, he's paying me sixty dollars for eight hours of my time.

Some people feel that is fair.

Unfortunately, fair has nothing to do with it.

 

[muir]

Its the system itself

We have a politicial system that is dominated by money. What this in essence means is that those with money get to make the rules

So what happens when those that are super rich make the rules? Well they make rules that favour themselves and not everyone else!

Its not just the political aspect either. The legal system too is based around money. Only the rich can really afford to fight in court which means that their will wins out most of the time

Then there is the media. It costs about £25 million pounds to start your own mainstream newspaper. Who has that money lying around? The super rich do! This means they set the agenda of what is being talked about in the public and the political sphere

So the problem is not issues like minimum wage...these are symptoms of a much bigger problem. You could raise the minimum wage and the super rich elites will just tweak the system somewhere else

THE PROBLEM IS THE SYSTEM ITSELF. A SYSTEM THAT ENABLES THE SUPER RICH TO PUSH THE AVERAGE PERSON ASIDE

The solution for the average person on the street is to resist. This can be done in many forms. We need to walk away from their system. We need to stop voting for the political parties that represent the rich, we need to stop fighting their wars for them, we need to leave their banks and join community credit unions, we need to stop buying their products from their corporations, we need to buy local, we need to create political dissent and support any groups that are standing upto them, we need to pool our resources so that we can match their political and legal firepower for examle through group actions and crowd funding.

We need to end their corrupt central banking system that indebts all of us

There are many more example of action that can be taken in the 'alternatives to capitalism' thread

 

[Flavus Aquila]

If you raise the minimum wage, there will be more unemployment.


Take your pick.

 

[MindYourHead]

I wish I made 8.50 lmao, as it is on a slow day I'm earning my employer around a thousand dollars...I'm being modest as there are days we'll process over five grand in an eight hour period. So on a slow day where my employer is earning say a thousand dollars out of me in an eight hour period, he's paying me sixty dollars for eight hours of my time.

Some people feel that is fair.

It is fair. If you boss is the owner, he is the one that took the risk in starting the business. Therefore, with greater risk come greater gain.

You should view it as incentive to do something that improves your position. Start your own company perhaps.
That used to be the mindset of the majority of society. Now it seems it is the mindset of being a victim.

When I pull into the parking lot here at work, and see the owner has a new Escalade, I don't fault him for that and feel I am a victim for only being able to afford to drive a 9 year old Ford Ranger.
I would be concerned if I pulled in and saw he was driving an old hoopty.
If he paid all of us enough so that the parking lot were full of Escalades, the company would cease to exist.

 

[Skathac]

It is fair. If you boss is the owner, he is the one that took the risk in starting the business. Therefore, with greater risk come greater gain.

You should view it as incentive to do something that improves your position. Start your own company perhaps.
That used to be the mindset of the majority of society. Now it seems it is the mindset of being a victim.

When I pull into the parking lot here at work, and see the owner has a new Escalade, I don't fault him for that and feel I am a victim for only being able to afford to drive a 9 year old Ford Ranger.
I would be concerned if I pulled in and saw he was driving an old hoopty.
If he paid all of us enough so that the parking lot were full of Escalades, the company would cease to exist.

I drive a 2000 F150 with a 4.6 liter v8, it gets pretty good gas mileage and has plenty of pep when I need it. I also don't feel like I'm in a damn sardine can like my first vehicle. I finished paying for it in 2007, bought it used in 2003. I'll drive it till the doors fall off then weld em back on and drive it some more, Ford made a great full sized truck in 2000.

The store was a known quantity when he purchased it and he'll never let it go since it is his top earner. Since I started working there the stealing by employees has stopped and we now have the least amount of lost merchandise due to theft in all the stores he currently owns. I've met the man and his son, both are decent enough individuals. He actually signs our checks every week, and this little nuance means a lot in a day and age when they could just have them all printed out and stamped.

I feel that increasing mine and the other worker's wages would ensure a consistent earner for him, as it is we are all looking for better jobs...the job market just sucks right now. When we leave they have to restaff a new crew, and that store hasn't exactly had a great track record for honest employees. So yeah, I know I'm wasted where I am...but then again you never truly value an honest employee till they are gone eh?

 

[MindYourHead]

I drive a 2000 F150 with a 4.6 liter v8, it gets pretty good gas mileage and has plenty of pep when I need it. I also don't feel like I'm in a damn sardine can like my first vehicle. I finished paying for it in 2007, bought it used in 2003. I'll drive it till the doors fall off then weld em back on and drive it some more, Ford made a great full sized truck in 2000.

The store was a known quantity when he purchased it and he'll never let it go since it is his top earner. Since I started working there the stealing by employees has stopped and we now have the least amount of lost merchandise due to theft in all the stores he currently owns. I've met the man and his son, both are decent enough individuals. He actually signs our checks every week, and this little nuance means a lot in a day and age when they could just have them all printed out and stamped.

I feel that increasing mine and the other worker's wages would ensure a consistent earner for him, as it is we are all looking for better jobs...the job market just sucks right now. When we leave they have to restaff a new crew, and that store hasn't exactly had a great track record for honest employees. So yeah, I know I'm wasted where I am...but then again you never truly value an honest employee till they are gone eh?

I agree with you that good employees should be rewarded with higher pay.
I think I may have taken your initial comments out of context, and may have come across as though I were inferring you were whining about your situation.
From this post it doesn't sound like that is the type of person you are. I apologize if that is the way it appeared.
I stand by my comments, but not directed at any single individual on the board.

I also agree with you that Ford builds a great truck. :first:

 

[Vict]

I was raised blue collar. Work is work and there's always a way to climb out of the mire.

 

[Faye]

Yes it is. All hierarchical labor, except for those at the top, is technically some kind of exploitation. Is it unfair exploitation? I guess that would depend on the job.

I don't find it acceptable for companies like walmart to offset their costs onto the public sector while they are making record sales. It is irresponsible and should be regulated. But I'll be called a communist for suggesting that walmart and similar companies ought to pay their employees a wage somewhere near livable.

At fast food restaurants, they make significantly less than minimum wage usually.

The average productivity of the U.S. worker has increased significantly, but the compensation for that labor has decreased while CEO bonuses have increased exponentially.

I don't see the situation changing anytime soon. I only expect it to continue to get worse- perhaps indefinitely.

 

[Skathac]

I agree with you that good employees should be rewarded with higher pay.
I think I may have taken your initial comments out of context, and may have come across as though I were inferring you were whining about your situation.
From this post it doesn't sound like that is the type of person you are. I apologize if that is the way it appeared.
I stand by my comments, but not directed at any single individual on the board.

I also agree with you that Ford builds a great truck. :first:

No worries sir, takes awhile to get to know anyone and after rereading my initial post I felt that only showing one aspect of my situation probably could leave alot of room for interpretation in a variety of ways.

After looking at the situation from many different angles and I know the end solution is to simply find work that is more rewarding at least monetarily speaking. I have also considered the situation my county is in and it largely reflects what I feel is problematic in the south and by association the rest of the country. This particular area was hit hard by the downsizing of military installations by Clinton in the 90's. It was further hammered as the industrial jobs dwindled and the manufacturing companies began outsourcing to other countries. There is one foundry left that I know of, a brass manufacturer of some sort, an awning company, and a handfull of subcontracting companies that work within the industrial military complex through Anniston Army Depot. With any community, small scale or otherwise, you have to have money coming in for it to thrive. So for Anniston to be built back up and by association Calhoun County, it needs to produce something that other people need and turn a profit while offering its workers a good living that can further grow its already present service based economy. Still working on that wonder product or products but I think I'm getting close to one of them.

If I manage to someday build my own company manufacturing products of my design, I will do so with the intent of providing my employees with good compensation for their time and efforts. That is one very big "if" from where I'm sitting right now, but then again it is only one of many eggs in the basket I've been working to fill.

 

[MindYourHead]

The average productivity of the U.S. worker has increased significantly, but the compensation for that labor has decreased while CEO bonuses have increased exponentially.

I don't see the situation changing anytime soon. I only expect it to continue to get worse- perhaps indefinitely.

I always think about how much of a company's CEO's compensation could be used for capital investment in the company. Perhaps by bringing the wages of the worker bees up to improve their lives. If they made more, they would have a higher purchasing power, which in turn would help create the need more jobs and services.

While I believe a CEO should be paid more, at some point the amount of compensation becomes grotesque.
Just as an example. Does Apple's CEO Tim Cook really need a compensation package worth $378,000,000 for 2012?
Who or what should determine how much is too much, I don't know.

 

[Rcs6r]

I'm surprised no one mentioned teenage workers, or people who are still dependents. Many companies hire minors and young adults for certain positions because their levels of experience are lower and they need a place to start. Minimum wage jobs are perfect for this age group because most of the time they are still living with a family, but are still getting work experience and some sort of income on their own.

 

[ThomasJ79]

Everyone is expoited in one way or another, but minimum wage laws decrease expoitation in the market. I would like to see it decreased further with a federal living wage law that is adjusted to cost of living. Oh yeah, throw in universal healthcare and tax funded public college education, funded by decreasing defense expenditures and taxing the wealthy more. This country has to rebuild the middle class. The highest federal tax rate on the highest income was over 90% in the late 50s, early 60s.(link below) Guess what? Not only did our country survive, it prospered. We need to do it again until we regain our footing.

Our republic cannot survive without healthy, educated, productive citizens.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/us-federal-individual-income-tax-rates-history-1913-2011-nominal-and-inflation-adjusted-brackets

 

[MindYourHead]

The highest federal tax rate on the highest income was over 90% in the late 50s, early 60s. Guess what? Not only did our country survive, it prospered. We need to do it again until we regain our footing.

That's something I always point out to people. Amazing how back then individuals were still able to become fantastically wealthy too. The tax burden didn't hamper that happening.
The irony is, back when JFK proposed lowering it from 91% to 77% It was the Republicans that put up a fight. Their argument being the country couldn't afford tax cuts.

I make more money than I did 10 years ago, but have a harder time making ends meet.

 

[Lerxst]

You can't talk about minimum wage without talking about other social and military programs as well; they're all connected. If military spending was cut to be in-line with most of Europe and other social programs were funded in its place like a Universal Healthcare system, then a huge financial burden is lifted from the workers and employers - no spending thousands of dollars for doctor visits/medications or buying insurance plans for the employers.

Minimum wage is relative to what people need to spend their money on. Right now, it's seriously out of alignment. We offer almost no "safety net" for anyone to sustain a livable, minimum standard on (I live and work around people day after day who rely on these "welfare" programs and trust me, those aren't standards anyone wants to ever have to live by), yet we pay painfully low wages that many people can't live decently on.

We're edging closer and closer to a feudal system, where the government has no say in anything and poor peasants are going to have to go in to a life of servitude for the wealthy landowners.

The rich people, the politicians and the ones all gung-ho about their potential to earn money in our flavor of capitalism seem to forget that we're all dependent on one another. We keep lowering the standards for the poor, and everyone else is going to be pulled down with them.