Is Modern Capitalism based on Socialism?

invisible said:
If you read the article you would understand very quickly that you have no idea what you're talking about. Skarekrow told you repeatedly that you don't know what you're talking about. I have no idea why you are intent on ignoring him. You seem constantly impervious to anything of value that anyone else could say.
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Its not important that you know. I can assure you @Skarekrow knows why I don't read articles or other similar items he posts.
 
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Eventhorizon said:
Its not important that you know. I can assure you @Skarekrow knows why I don't read articles or other similar items he posts.
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No actually the things I post are usually in opposition to some falsehood or hate filled rant about Obama and the Liberals, Socialists, etc. coming to destroy your life.
Take a good look at what is happening in Washington right now and tell me the BS they are trying to enact is good for the people - except that the shit they keep trying to do is unconstitutional and so various Judges have blocked harmful Presdential orders...just like judges have said they would if they try to enact their harmful "healthcare"/Billionaire tax giveaway.
You don't read them because it either highlights how fucked up said thing is that you are currently saying.
Don't assume you know what I am thinking, you are fucking clueless in that dept.
You don't read them because you can't deal with the cognitive dissolve (and dissonance) it causes.
You don't like hearing me answer you back, or refuse to read the material you are even arguing with me about, then don't make ignorant/insulting statements and tag my name to it.
Take of your BS colored glasses.
 
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Stu said:
So often the political discourse veers into warnings about become a socialist country. For many it is the clarion call to action against progressive policies. We often hear conservative rail against the evils of socialism as they point to criminal states like N Korea or failing economies like Cuba or Venezuela as examples of what might happen to us.
But is it not clear that without various socialist enterprises that are embedded into our "free" market system that our economy would not even exist?
Let's not even mention basic government services, like fire departments and public schools. Instead look at insurance, like the FDIC, Crop Insurance, or home owners insurance.... Is it not true that without Insurance businesses would not be able to operate and markets would fail?
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I think when you look at the outcome for countries that have been ruled by socialist or communist governments, it's hard to make any rational case for them. I think the reality is capitalism works better, provided it is operated under the rule of law, organized through truly democratic means. When I look at the problems that exist around capitalism, that to me always seems to come up as the issue.

The subversion of the law, by unscrupulous corporations and billionaires, for financial gain. What is capitalism ? It's just a system of trade, and people have traded with each other for centuries. The aim should be under a democracy to make that trade as fair and ethical as possible, and to protect all citizens rights to a decent life.

When I hear those screaming for "deregulation" they sometimes sound like burglars who want to abolish The Police force, as it interferes with their profits. They have no wish to see trade being fair or equitable, they want to cheat, lie, steal and manipulate others. Then they turn on those who insist on law and regulation as being "socialists". I will never be a socialist, but no doubt others would like to portray me as one, because I don't like crooks or swindlers.

I think that was what Bernie Sanders was talking about. He just took the word on directly - so others didn't get to take the first shot at besmirching his reputation. I think he was a grumpy old guy, but good to the core, an honest man. I think that was why people of all ages and backgrounds responded to him so well. I wish there were more like him.
 
invisible said:
When I think about this issue it seems to me almost like at its extreme development, that capitalism is anarchic - what do you think of this?. I want to read the article Skarekrow posted again because I feel like I don't properly understand the way that public services and infrastructure are supposed to fit into the theory of deregulation. It seems as though it is not possible for a market to provide those sorts of things on its own, because the market has no reason to be charitable. But it seems like about free market the idea is that any regulation is holding back the market and preventing it from serving humanity. I've always really struggled with the idea that a deregulated market can serve humanity.

Insurance is an interesting one. It seems like insurance organisations are a privatised business service?
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That's why those things were not privatized.
There are certain services that cause conflicts of interest when privatized...like the municipal water in Flint, MI.
Or private for-profit prisons, where the lobbyists push the lawmakers for longer prison terms and stricter laws on this or that.
Our healthcare system will always continue to grow in how expensive it is to the consumer until they give us a public option that circumvents all the institutions that are clearly gouging people...to the point of bankruptcy and death in the mot extremely cases.
That is why the regulatory system is in place in our "Capitalist" society.
And you are right, often times the regulations that keep society safe, financially, health wise, or in any aspect, are in direct competition with those institutions who would stand to make more money by deregulating everything....which make any thoughts of a social safety net quite unstable.
 
Skarekrow said:
That's why those things were not privatized.
There are certain services that cause conflicts of interest when privatized...like the municipal water in Flint, MI.
Or private for-profit prisons, where the lobbyists push the lawmakers for longer prison terms and stricter laws on this or that.
Our healthcare system will always continue to grow in how expensive it is to the consumer until they give us a public option that circumvents all the institutions that are clearly gouging people...to the point of bankruptcy and death in the mot extremely cases.
That is why the regulatory system is in place in our "Capitalist" society.
And you are right, often times the regulations that keep society safe, financially, health wise, or in any aspect, are in direct competition with those institutions who would stand to make more money by deregulating everything....which make any thoughts of a social safety net quite unstable.
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I think though, this far right fantasy of "total deregulation" would never make more money - it would just completely collapse the society and produce anarchy. Some economists and those focused on business take a very narrow view of things. They think they can 'crunch the numbers' and life exists on an excel spreadsheet.

They think they can just ignore the will of the people, and do whatever they like. They can't.
 
invisible said:
I never asked to know and I don't remotely care why you do the things you do. But if you don't want to engage with the ideas then quit talking about them.
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" I have no idea why you are intent on ignoring him."-invisible

I'll talk about whatever I like. If you don't like what I talk about, place me on ignore.
 
People can say socialism and communism do not work but Laissez-faire style capitalism also does not work. Capitalism in order to work for the majority of people in a society it needs to be regulated. Unregulated capitalism inevitability leads to monopoly control of the economy and control of the political system by moneyed interests. We are living in an era of crony capitalism right now where democratic institutions are being manipulated by multinational corporations whose power now dwarfs that of sovereign governments. What's worse is that many people have been convinced, through the adoption of neo-con ideology, that granting unfettered power to these corporate entities and giving all sorts of subsidies and tax breaks to them is a positive good for society. This has been proven time and time again to be false. Ideas like trickle down economics as practiced by Reagan and now Trump are a case in point. Why do we keep going back to policies that proven to be failures? These corporate entities have no sense of responsibility and no loyalties beside increasing shareholder profits. Trump with his faux-populism and all his talk about "draining the swamp" is just a perfect example of doublethink. After a campaign railing against corporations and investment bankers,he fills his cabinet with crony capitalists. investment bankers, representatives of the military-industrial complex.

Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Those words are absolute truth, spoken by Lord Acton. Without the power of government and unions, corporate power is unchecked, unfettered and ultimately damages society.
 
Eventhorizon said:
" I have no idea why you are intent on ignoring him."-invisible

I'll talk about whatever I like. If you don't like what I talk about, place me on ignore.
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You're right. I've changed my mind and I think that this is quite good actually. I like you doing what you're doing. You should do whatever you like to do, and the thing that presents itself to you as most interesting to do whenever you want to do it. I am encouraging you to comment as much as possible on articles that you haven't read, and to not listen to others when they try to tell you that reading the article is essential to commenting meaningfully on the matter at hand. Please continue to do it. xox
 
invisible said:
You're right. I've changed my mind and I think that this is quite good actually. I like you doing what you're doing. You should do whatever you like to do, and the thing that presents itself to you as most interesting to do whenever you want to do it. I am encouraging you to comment as much as possible on articles that you haven't read, and to not listen to others when they try to tell you that reading the article is essential to commenting meaningfully on the matter at hand. Please continue to do it. xox
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I continue to show you how you are wrong. Even concerning your own posts. "I didn't say this" , well yes you did. Earlier you accused me of condoning torture of people who have different political views, I asked you why you thought that with no response.
On and on the list goes with you.
My suggestion is that you take a hard look at yourself before you look at others. I am really really close to simply putting you on block and being done with it. I've been in a bit of awe though at the shear hipocracy you operate under along with the ironic nature you display.
I want you to have a great and happy life. Truly. I wish no ill will of you. But, in speaking with you and others like you I have become more secure in the indifference I will have when your kind are finally persecuted in this country. Those who would destroy America in favor of socialism, communism or even anarchy. When that time comes, I will sleep like a baby every night. I want to thank you for that.
 
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Eventhorizon said:
I continue to show you how you are wrong. Even concerning your own posts. "I didn't say this" , well yes you did. Earlier you accused me of condoning torture of people who have different political views, I asked you why you thought that with no response.
On and on the list goes with you.
My suggestion is that you take a hard look at yourself before you look at others. I am really really close to simply putting you on block and being done with it. I've been in a bit of awe though at the shear hipocracy you operate under along with the ironic nature you display.
I want you to have a great and happy life. Truly. I wish no ill will of you. But, in speaking with you and others like you I have become more secure in the indifference I will have when your kind are finally persecute in this country. Those who would destroy America in favor of socialism, communism or even anarchy. When that time comes, I will sleep like a baby every night. I want to thank you for that.
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I stated that you condone torture, because you have previously stated that you condone torture. You said that "torture works". But now that it's come up in conversation, would you torture people who have the same political views as you? I think it's more likely that you would condone torture of people with different political views than yours. Do people in power torture powerless people with the same political views as their own? Maybe sometimes, for political reasons, I'm not really sure about it. You have said that you support torture because it "works", I guess that's a good enough reason for anyone to support torture, regardless of the political views of the person being tortured.

I haven't responded to you at times because I do keep you on ignore. But now and then I notice in the replies of others that you have said or done something that appears so deserving of attention from me, I just can't help myself! I'm sorry about that - I'll take you off ignore and try to pay more consistent attention to you from now on.

I think that by "take a long hard look at myself," what you mean is, "see yourself as I myself see you, for whatever reason that I choose to see you". For that reason I will not be taking a long hard look at myself. Instead, I will be responding to the garbage you write. Such as commenting on the content of an article without reading it. I won't be looking at you, because I'm not at all interested in looking at you. Instead, I will be responding to the garbage that you write. I'm quite comfortable with you remarking on matters of my personality, my shear hipocracy and ironic nature - whatever you please, go ahead. I won't be responding to that - I will be responding to the garbage that you write.

What do you mean by "finally persecuted"? What does that mean exactly, that you want for me and people like me to be persecuted? You want us to be excluded from job opportunities, or welfare assistance? You have said that you want people who disagree with you politically to be denied their vote, because they are destroying America. Is that persecution? Do you want us to be tortured also? Would that be sufficient persecution? Where did you hear or read about the word "persecution"? Do you know what that word means?
 
@invisible @Eventhorizon

Respectfully I think using the block function is maybe the best idea here, unless you can agree to differ. The last few posts appear to not be based on the thread topic, and seem to becoming angry/personal.
 
James said:
@invisible @Eventhorizon

Respectfully I think using the block function is maybe the best idea here, unless you can agree to differ. The last few posts appear to not be based on the thread topic, and seem to becoming angry/personal.
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I would have to agree.
 
James said:
@invisible @Eventhorizon

Respectfully I think using the block function is maybe the best idea here, unless you can agree to differ. The last few posts appear to not be based on the thread topic, and seem to becoming angry/personal.
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Nothing flips my switch like torture. Posts representing views such as the value of torture, the deprivation of citizen voting, and the promotion of institutionalised persecution in society are not acceptable to me and I'm happy to interrogate those sorts of views whenever they arise. Apart from anything else I see it as disruptive to a community of people who don't at all represent that kind of stuff. I understand and accept that community members, especially more gentle members, see me as problematic by my willingness to challenge these things. On the other hand, I hope that if my posts become too disruptive to community, that I will be infracted, according to the consensus of staff.
 
invisible said:
Nothing flips my switch like torture. Posts representing views such as the value of torture, the deprivation of citizen voting, and the promotion of institutionalised persecution in society are not acceptable to me and I'm happy to interrogate those sorts of views whenever they arise. Apart from anything else I see it as disruptive to a community of people who don't at all represent that kind of stuff. I understand and accept that community members, especially more gentle members, see me as problematic by my willingness to challenge these things. On the other hand, I hope that if my posts become too disruptive to community, that I will be infracted, according to the consensus of staff.
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@invisible I understand, and there is nothing you have posted I've seen, that I think merits reporting. Infractions on the forum are happily a rare occurrence, and my post was meant as a quiet attempt to lower the "temperature" not raise it. For the record, I am completely opposed to any form of torture.

I don't think you are seen as problematic or disruptive, certainly not by me. My only intention was for the thread to stay productively on its subject, which i think has seen some very good points raised.
 
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