Jordan Peterson

I've been watching quite a lot of Peterson videos since I first read this thread.

My opinion: I would be extremely surprised if he were not xNFJ. The man oozes Fe and Ni. The only difficult thing is to figure out which is his dominant. In most of his interviews and lectures he seems like an Fe-dom. However, in his Q&A, which he does at home in front of his computer and for which he is not as "prepared", he seems to have strong Ni moments. When he is reflecting, he sometimes has those intense "staring at the ceiling" moments which seem to be typical of Ni-doms. Let me just illustrate this by linking to one of these Q&A videos. Watch from 28:10 to 29:50:


Not only does he have a lot of those stares, but the content of what he is saying seems also very xNFJ. Let me quote: "I'm hopeful because I think that people are remarkable creatures despite their limitations and the absurdity of our existence and our proclivity toward malevolence. I think that whatever constitutes our essence is capable of transcending that. And I think that people know that. [I have] an exceptional optimism about our potential. It is my firm belief that each of us has a responsibility to set the world right in the manner that we are able to. That is, I believe, of fundamental import. I believe in some sense it is even of cosmic import, in the same way that consciousness itself is of cosmic import and reflects being itself. I do believe that we have the ability to bring new creations into being and that the value of that new being is dependent on the ethical decisions that each of us makes."

So yeah. Either he is a particularly assertive INFJ, or he is a particularly cerebral ENFJ. I can't see any other type for him.
 
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Ren said:
I've been watching quite a lot of Peterson videos since I first read this thread.

My opinion: I would be extremely surprised if he were not xNFJ. The man oozes Fe and Ni. The only difficult thing is to figure out which is his dominant. In most of his interviews and lectures he seems like an Fe-dom. However, in his Q&A, which he does at home in front of his computer and for which he is not as "prepared", he seems to have strong Ni moments. When he is reflecting, he sometimes has those intense "staring at the ceiling" moments which seem to be typical of Ni-doms. Let me just illustrate this by linking to one of these Q&A videos. Watch from 28:10 to 29:50:


Not only does he have a lot of those stares, but the content of what he is saying seems also very xINFJ. Let me quote: "I'm hopeful because I think that people are remarkable creatures despite their limitations and the absurdity of our existence and our proclivity toward malevolence. I think that whatever constitutes our essence is capable of transcending that. And I think that people know that. [I have] an exceptional optimism about our potential. It is my firm belief that each of us has a responsibility to set the world right in the manner that we are able to. That is, I believe, of fundamental import. I believe in some sense it is even of cosmic import, in the same way that consciousness itself is of cosmic import and reflects being itself. I do believe that we have the ability to bring new creations into being and that the value of that new being is dependent on the ethical decisions that each of us makes."

So yeah. Either he is a particularly assertive INFJ, or he is a particularly celebral ENFJ. I can't see any other type for him.
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I'm curious, Ren, do you find him to be particularly impressive as an intellectual or not?

Personally, I think he actually has very little to do with the kind of political colouring he is often given, apart from his dislike of the 'radical left'.

I find him very easy to relate to in intellectual terms, and find it hard, actually, to see him as some kind of alt-right demagogue. He has ideas, some of which are profound, and some of which can be demonstrably wrong (E.g. His epistemology), but I can't hate him for either; that would be absurd.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
I'm curious, Ren, do you find him to be particularly impressive as an intellectual or not?

Personally, I think he actually has very little to do with the kind of political colouring he is often given, apart from his dislike of the 'radical left'.

I find him very easy to relate to in intellectual terms, and find it hard, actually, to see him as some kind of alt-right demagogue. He has ideas, some of which are profound, and some of which can be demonstrably wrong (E.g. His epistemology), but I can't hate him for either; that would be absurd.
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I think I'm on your page, though I don't know him well enough as of yet to say whether I think he is a right-wing demagogue or not. I'm not of that opinion thus far, anyway. I also find him easy to relate to, intellectually. He has a lot of Ni, Fe and Ti going on, so perhaps that explains part of it. If he really is INFJ, though, I wonder how he manages to do all these public events without completely burning out. It sounds hyper scary to me.

Regarding whether he is impressive or not: I certainly find his intellect impressive. He processes information extremely fast and with great fluency. What I'm not sure of yet is whether he is an original thinker, i.e. capable of producing original thought. To return to what you said about his epistemology being demonstrably wrong, though: if that is so, and if he is so smart, how come he stays in the wrong? Could this be ideological, and if so, of a right-wing nature?
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
I find him very easy to relate to in intellectual terms, and find it hard, actually, to see him as some kind of alt-right demagogue.
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Politically, JP is just a standard Red Tory type—in the same tradition as one-nation Tories and definitely in favour of some state regulation, traditional communities, regulated markets, protection of minority groups, etc. However, whether intentionally or not, the way he talks about things like 'postmodern neo-marxism' often aligns him with alt-right conspiracy theory in a way that is, at best, uninformed. And when he strays outside his field of specialist knowledge, he says things that are just strange.

It's important to be fair and, indeed, I believe celebrity has been especially unhealthy for him. Also, there's a broader problem with public intellectuals, which is systemic. We've seen Richard Dawkins debating theology under the impression that Cartesianism is the consensus view of academic Christianity; Sam Harris misrepresent the field of philosophical ethics and Neil deGrasse Tyson pontificate on every subject imaginable. I don't think these people are idiots, but we have a culture that encourages the idea of an intellectual super-class, people who can knowledgeably contribute to any discussion with impeccable authority—like every public intellectual has achieved Goethe's ideal. And JP has fallen into that trap.

Ren said:
To return to what you said about his epistemology being demonstrably wrong, though: if that is so, and if he is so smart, how come he stays in the wrong? Could be ideological, and if so, of a right-wing nature?
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Yeah, he's got a vested interest now, too. He earns a lot from his Patreon and book sales. That's fine, but it means that humility on any subject could be costly and that's a worrying incentive. And to be fair, I've seen the same dynamic on the left.

EDIT: I'm not a fan of takedown videos, from the left or right. I use them illustratively. This is not how debate should be conducted.
 
Rowan Tree said:
Politically, JP is just a standard Red Tory type—in the same tradition as one-nation Tories and definitely in favour of some state regulation, traditional communities, regulated markets, protection of minority groups, etc. However, whether intentionally or not, the way he talks about things like 'postmodern neo-marxism' often aligns him with alt-right conspiracy theory in a way that is, at best, uninformed. And when he strays outside his field of specialist knowledge, he says things that are just strange.

It's important to be fair and, indeed, I believe celebrity has been especially unhealthy for him. Also, there's a broader problem with public intellectuals, which is systemic. We've seen Richard Dawkins debating theology under the impression that Cartesianism is the consensus view of academic Christianity; Sam Harris misrepresent the field of philosophical ethics and Neil deGrasse Tyson pontificate on every subject imaginable. I don't think these people are idiots, but we have a culture that encourages the idea of an intellectual super-class, people who can knowledgeably contribute to any discussion with impeccable authority—like every public intellectual has achieved Goethe's ideal. And JP has fallen into that trap.



Yeah, he's got a vested interest now, too. He earns a lot from his Patreon and book sales. That's fine, but it means that humility on any subject could be costly and that's a worrying incentive. And to be fair, I've seen the same dynamic on the left.

EDIT: I'm not a fan of takedown videos, from the left or right. I use them illustratively. This is not how debate should be conducted.
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@Ren

His epistemology...

He's maintaining to this thing that's there's something called 'metaphorical truth' which is just as valid and 'true' as 'brute fact'.

Now, there's nothing wrong with this to start with, and it's an interesting idea, but everytime he's expanded upon it (or rather, has been asked to expand upon it), he argues himself into a corner that 'metaphorical truth' is logically precedent or equivalent to 'absolute truth'... and he stops making sense.

It seems related to the fact that he has some cognitive dissonance with being a Christian and a scientist at the same time, so he says things like 'the immaculate conception is metaphorically true'. Its not an agnostic position of 'I just don't know!', it's different - he's created this epistemic category which allows him to simultaneously believe contradictory positions without admitting to it. He will never say that the immaculate conception didn't happen, but he also can't say that it's a brute fact, so he falls back upon this notion of 'metaphorical truth'.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
It seems related to the fact that he has some cognitive dissonance with being a Christian and a scientist at the same time, so he says things like 'the immaculate conception is metaphorically true'. Its not an agnostic position of 'I just don't know!', it's different - he's created this epistemic category which allows him to simultaneously believe contradictory positions without admitting to it. He will never say that the immaculate conception didn't happen, but he also can't say that it's a brute fact, so he falls back upon this notion of 'metaphorical truth'.
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*Sigh*

I always feel that Kierkegaard's understanding of faith should have just ended this kind of stuff. Maybe in another few centuries.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
It seems related to the fact that he has some cognitive dissonance with being a Christian and a scientist at the same time, so he says things like 'the immaculate conception is metaphorically true'. Its not an agnostic position of 'I just don't know!', it's different - he's created this epistemic category which allows him to simultaneously believe contradictory positions without admitting to it. He will never say that the immaculate conception didn't happen, but he also can't say that it's a brute fact, so he falls back upon this notion of 'metaphorical truth'.
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why can't it be 'metaphorically true?'

If form is created from ether by the divine spirit then ether would be the celestial virgin and spiritual mother of all form that is then incubated by divine spirit
 
Ren said:
I think his Fe is too strong to be tertiary, and his ideation seems very Ni. He strikes me as an NJ.
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Hey, does anyone think that the way his charisma is manifest is an introvert thing? Like it's 'will', and comes across as assertiveness? Just throwing it out, maybe totally off base.

If you see him in interviews, he has a steelyness that I imagine is rather unsettling.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
Hey, does anyone think that the way his charisma is manifest is an introvert thing? Like it's 'will', and comes across as assertiveness? Just throwing it out, maybe totally off base.

If you see him in interviews, he has a steelyness that I imagine is rather unsettling.
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Good question! When discussing his Big Five results, he speaks of scoring super high on assertiveness, so unless he's misjudging himself, he is genuinely assertive.
 
Ren said:
I think his Fe is too strong to be tertiary, and his ideation seems very Ni. He strikes me as an NJ.
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He strikes me as being extremely good at connecting the "external" dot's, and strives to be very accurate with those dot's (Ne-Ti?). From what I've seen, he is springboarding from existing ideas, not really going the whole round himself (Ne more than Ni?). And I get the sense that it's more about breaking down understandings, than building new ones with him (Ne-Ti more than Fe-Ni?). And that he feel like he has to replace what he has "destroyed" with something new, but that's where things get a little awkward "How not to be a man child" etc

It also seems to me like he is Fe-conflicted - resisting to people-please, but in the end of the day he needs the love. ENTP/ESTP problem?

He seems to be most comfortable in the debate (Ne/Ti?). It looks to me like he becomes emotionally conflicted when he speaks to an audience without dialogue. His tone of voice and enthusiasm just spirals down when there's no quick shifting dynamic that triggers him - it's like he doesn't believe in what he's saying in the end (Ne?). I don't think it means that he doesn't enjoy doing it, it's just that he seem to be more in his element when debating?

Si? Tadition, experience, history, grounded reality, anything that keeps his Ne from going to space, and the results are creative use of symbolism to reflect different aspects of the world? (I really don't understand Si lol)

I'd say ENFJ before INFJ, but NT before NF, and extrovert before introvert, and Fe before Fi, leaving only ENTP

I really don't know. And I don't have a "feel" for this type yet, so I feel limited :grin:
 
Infjente said:
It also seems to me like he is Fe-conflicted - resisting to people-please, but in the end of the day he needs the love. ENTP/ESTP problem?
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I dunno, his videos suggest to me that he is at the very least Fe-aux. And if so, he would be an Fe-aux with very strong Fe.

I just can't imagine him being Fe-tertiary. That's too low on the function stack given how strong his Fe is. And I don't get an Ne-dom vibe from him at all. He seems like a convergent intuitive.
 
Infjente said:
Why not ENTP?
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I actually did consider this initially. Idk, I suppose it's possible still, but after seeing him in more personal, intimate and relaxed environments I feel like inxj is more probable
 
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