Krishna - Buddha - Jesus

[Kgal]

@Kgal many Buddhists believe that God is pure consciousness...not personified the way many religions perceive the divine (as a person)...but is basically the ground of being, the source of all things (subtly different than a "creator")...completely formless and empty, but containing infinite possibility.

The people I hang out with who practice the Buddha's teachings all have varying concepts of god - or no god. As the guy in the video pointed out - it's not so important as to what you believe - but how one follows the teachings of the different religions and practices he explored. Buddhism is not a religion - even though many treat it as one.

Yes. I understand the ground of being - the source of all things - etc.

Form is emptiness | Emptiness is Form. The Heart Sutra says it all...does it not?

I have found it very difficult to convey this concept to people. There is our Ego - formed after birth and during our very early years. It was/is needed for our survival. It contains all of the learned behaviors and pain memories of our upbringing. Then there is our authentic Self - our awareness - the ground of our being. It cannot be changed. It cannot be hurt. It is constant and ceaseless and never dies. It is Joy and Compassion and Unconditional Love. It is of god....

So...it seems in our long evolution here on this planet we are born with no memory of being of god - or the infinite possibility. If one is to believe the ideas swirling around Krishna, Buddha, and Jesus - our goal here is to make our way through our Ego and find our Self in relation to the infinite we came from - or God - as the religions of the last 2K years are trying to tell us.
I wonder if we've always been born this way - ignorant of our origins - or was this something that was lost to us during some huge earth wide cataclysm where humanity was almost wiped out.

I wanted to know what anyone thinks of the fact Krishna, Buddha, and Jesus came here and tried to teach us something.


btw... the Mayans have a story of a white guy with a beard coming to them from across the sea - walked on water - taught them many wonderful techniques for living. His name was Quetzalcoatl. When I first heard about him - I immediately thought of Jesus.

 

[Patrick Williams]

Uh....I believe you're wrong about this religious attitude being more prevalent with human history than otherwise.

What about the hunter gatherer tribes? What about before agriculture and cities?

My ancestors held nature in reverence and strived for harmony with it. They did not worship a god.

I think religion came about because someone wanted to control the masses.

I think humans came up with this afterlife with God up in heaven idea because the ego is afraid to die and life in the cities under the control of a few turned out to be miserable.

Now. The idea of the Sprirtual journey/quest - I'll agree that's been around for a long long time. But not religions nor God.

OK, I do not have a problem calling it a spiritual journey/quest (which, to me, is form of "religion" but I can use a different word and understand that people like to say they are "spiritual" but not "religious" - even Christians say this today but I do not divide these two things so sharply as most do, I guess).

Anthropology shows that humans have, for the most part, been polytheistic or shamanistic and I consider this to be "religion" or "religious expression" but I do not want us to get hung up on a word so we can classify it as being spiritual.

Wicca is a religion (or a spirituality, I should say), The Native America's have spiritual rituals, the Mayans did - honestly, tell me of ONE society that was totally devoid of some type of spirituality? And that is my point, regardless of what name/classification we assign to it - people have a spiritual bend that cannot be denied and anthropological and archeological evidence bears this out.

I am not claiming they are right or wrong (because that was not the original question), I am just pointing to the fact that humans, by and large, have always been spiritual and searching for something beyond themselves and this spirituality bears itself out is some form of ritual no matter how primitive it may seem (even the hunter/gathers). Although I do not know allot about Wicca, I am pretty certain there are certain rituals and ceremonies they participate in (which is a form of religious or spiritual expression), same with the New Age people, same with Native Americans, Mayans, Inca, Druids, Ancient Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, Phoenicians, etc...All spiritualities express themselves in some way - even if it is waving burning sage in the air to ward off evil spirits.

I do not mind calling it spirituality but, whatever nomenclature we give it, it is evident that humans have always reached out to something beyond themselves.

The very fact that this forum has a "religion/spirituality" thread bears this out - why is it even here if people don't have some natural draw to it? I mean, we do not see a thread on "Pink Elephants that live on the Clouds" because no one would believe it or care because there is nothing innate drawing us to imaginary pink elephants and, yet, we are innately drawn to the "something" out there that is beyond ourselves (even if we all do not define it quite the same way)

I think we are saying the same thing but using different words but, like I said, I do not have a problem substituting "religion" for "spiritual quest" because the point is still the same.

The only point we may disagree on (respectfully, of course - I have not desire to persuade you to think the way I do) is the idea of god/gods not being around for that long of a time. I will grant you that Monotheism has NOT been the norm and Polytheism HAS been the norm but, whichever one it is, and idea of a god or gods or some type of superior spiritual beings has been around for a very, very long time.

And this eventually boils down to one question: WHY?

Why is there this draw in humans to the spiritual if all we are is material beings only?

The answer is, we are drawn to the spiritual because we ARE spiritual beings united with our flesh (not trapped in the flesh as the Gnostics would say - but united).

Now, I do have one question on something you stated that piqued my interest: What ancient people reverenced nature but did not have any gods? (the Druids did have gods)

 

[Kgal]

[MENTION=5927]Patrick Williams[/MENTION]

Native Americans did not have gods.
Shamans did not worship gods.
Buddhists have no god.

What do you know of Druidism? Most of what I've read is based upon conjecture and most likely projection. I mean I searched and searched for years because my most recent ancestry originates from those islands....and I really wanted to find meaning there. I didn't find much - though. Just like a lot of ancient cultural beliefs - it was stamped out by the oppression of a dominant culture and there wasn't much left to pass on down through the generations. I would love to see anything new I might have missed those years ago.

See. .... we can only look back at history through our current lens. That lens is a framework built up around the idea of religion.

You lumped Shamanism in there with polytheistic perspectives insinuating that shamans worshiped gods. They did not. They recognized the seen and the unseen worlds and walked between them in order to keep their communities healthy and thriving. This included a wide range of duties ranging from finding them adequate food to keeping their mental health in balance.

I am just challenging you to think about humanity without the idea of ...as you say it...

some type of superior spiritual beings has been around for a very, very long time.

On the idea of rituals being more primitive than another. ...look at the concept of drinking wine(blood) and eating a wafer(body). Ugh. If I were an alien I'd take one look at the Christians and think they were cannibals. Now... that strikes me as being primitive indeed.

I don't think Krishna, Buddha, nor Jesus was trying to convey anything resembling a superior spiritual being. I think they were telling us WE are spiritual beings. No one entity is superior.

btw... You have a lovely debating attitude.
Too bad all of us here in the thread are not sitting around in someone's living room.

 

[Patrick Williams]

[MENTION=5927]Patrick Williams[/MENTION]

Native Americans did not have gods.
Shamans did not worship gods.
Buddhists have no god.

What do you know of Druidism? Most of what I've read is based upon conjecture and most likely projection. I mean I searched and searched for years because my most recent ancestry originates from those islands....and I really wanted to find meaning there. I didn't find much - though. Just like a lot of ancient cultural beliefs - it was stamped out by the oppression of a dominant culture and there wasn't much left to pass on down through the generations. I would love to see anything new I might have missed those years ago.

See. .... we can only look back at history through our current lens. That lens is a framework built up around the idea of religion.

You lumped Shamanism in there with polytheistic perspectives insinuating that shamans worshiped gods. They did not. They recognized the seen and the unseen worlds and walked between them in order to keep their communities healthy and thriving. This included a wide range of duties ranging from finding them adequate food to keeping their mental health in balance.

I am just challenging you to think about humanity without the idea of ...as you say it...

On the idea of rituals being more primitive than another. ...look at the concept of drinking wine(blood) and eating a wafer(body). Ugh. If I were an alien I'd take one look at the Christians and think they were cannibals. Now... that strikes me as being primitive indeed.

I don't think Krishna, Buddha, nor Jesus was trying to convey anything resembling a superior spiritual being. I think they were telling us WE are spiritual beings. No one entity is superior.

btw... You have a lovely debating attitude.
Too bad all of us here in the thread are not sitting around in someone's living room.

Thanks, Kgal, I learned something new about Shamanism. I thought they believed in the "Great Spirit" or lesser spirits (gods) but I guess I was wrong - after I read your post I googled it quickly and what I quickly read did not mention anything about any gods - just a bunch of spirits! : - ) So you taught me something tonight, thank you!

Thank you for the compliment but you debate well also, it takes two to tango, right? So, thank you for your graciousness also. I do not mind discussing and disagreeing and engaging a subject in an amicable way - how else will we learn? In Proverbs, it says that "as iron sharpens iron, so two friends can sharpen each other". The only way we can learn from each other is to dialogue with each other (and sometimes we just agree to disagree without holding any rancor or ill will)

Ok, it is time for me to call it a night. Goodnight, Kgal, I hope you have a good evening/morning/day (depending on where you are at! : - ). Goodnight from Florida!

 

[Matt3737]

He's not wrong, although you might be getting caught up in any number of definitive semantic arguments. You can believe in a god without believing in a personified form of god. The problem with getting into whether a religion identifies god or not has to do with what constitutes the definition of god. If god can be defined as an animating force or immaterial concept, then you'd be quite wrong.

At their core, every spiritual belief system is based upon the cognizant awareness of mortality, its meaning and significance. This is an innately human characteristic, though it can and does take innumerable varied forms. Scientists further speculate whether neanderthals were spiritually self-aware or were religious based on burial evidence:

Although much has been made of the Neanderthals' burial of their dead, their burials were less elaborate than those of anatomically modern humans. The interpretation of the Shanidar IV burials as including flowers, and therefore being a form of ritual burial, has been questioned. On the other hand, five of the six flower pollens found with Shanidar IV are known to have had 'traditional' medical uses, even among relatively recent 'modern' populations. In some cases Neanderthal burials include grave goods, such as bison and aurochs bones, tools, and the pigment ochre.

As to the original topic, this mytheme of the hero's journey as reflected in the work of Joseph Campbell can be found in nearly every culture in some form or another.

 

[Billy]

Billy,

You were paraphrasing St. Augustine there - are you sure you're not a closet Christian?! : - ) (Just kidding).

Obviously, I do not mind if you disagree with me (and even if I did, it wouldn't matter, would it?) because that is how we come to the truth - through amiable dialogue and disagreements and, ultimately, that is really what all of us want, to live our lives founded on truth, right? I mean, who wants to die and realize their whole life was built on a lie or a false perception? So, yes, disagreement can be good and help if we are truly searching for truth.

So, was I wrong to say ALL of humanity was searching for God? Maybe. Maybe I should have said that human history is filled with religion and most people search for meaning, purpose, truth and reality in this life...maybe that would have been more accurate.

However you would like to word it, it is fair to say that the history of humanity is filled with religion much, much more than the absence of it. Every ancient culture and civilization was very religious - even ancient Rome. Whether is was the Druids or the pagan mystery religions of the middle east, humanity has been marked by a deep and consistent religious bent - why? Humans, by and large, DO have a certain draw to things spiritual and that is because they ARE spiritual at there core.

Maybe I should not make such sweeping generalizations but the human art of language is filled with that and we intuitively understand it. For example, when hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans the Nightly news reported that New Orleans was "devastated". Now, I ask you - was ALL of New Orleans devastated or just significant parts of it? Obviously, not all of it was but enough of it was to be able to say that "New Orleans was devastated". So, when I say, "Humanity" I mean "by and large" and, of course, there are always exceptions to the standard.

Anyway, what you pointed out was good but I do think history does show a religious bend within humanity more than it does otherwise. Think through the 10,000 plus years of history and you will see that it is littered with religious ceremony, customs and values (and I am not just referring to monotheistic religions either but think of the Druids, Isis, Baal worship, etc...).

OK, I got to start dinner here (spaghetti with meat balls). I hope that clarifies it some. You are right in saying my generalizations do not apply to everyone without exception - I agree with you on that but I still do maintain that, by and large, history shows humans, the vast majority of them, do tend to have a desire to connect with the Eternal One or the spiritual realm, however they perceive or understand that.

Human culture also had plenty of genocide, slavery, oppression of women and children, child marriage, suppression of science, so on and so forth, doesnt mean it was right or ingrained in us. Especially since much of that was spurred on by Religion. I would say human kind seeks answers, not god. God is just a good fill in for the stuff we couldnt understand, and we fear what we dont understand, which was the point of sacrifice.

 

[muir]

I think they're avatars...sattvic beings who encourage us to look within to find our truths

They are the embodiment of the concept of following your true will / finding your true self / flowing with the tao, by cultivating a relationship with the unconscious mind in order to align the conscious and unconscious mind and master the ego

 

[Stu]

I think they're avatars...satvittic beings who encourage us to look within to find our truths

They are the embodiment of the concept of following your true will / finding your true self / flowing with the tao, by cultivating a relationship with the unconscious mind in order to align the conscious and unconscious mind and master the ego

Yes!

 

[Apone]

You forgot one:

 

[JonMac]

You forgot one:

View attachment 15503

You can disagree with me without ridiculing me and being disrespectuful.

 

[Apone]

You can disagree with me without ridiculing me and being disrespectuful.

I don't think that the North Koreans would think that I was being disrespectful.

 

[JonMac]

I don't think that the North Koreans would think that I was being disrespectful.

I don't personally know any North Koreans, so I would not presume to generalize what thay may or may not think and believe. This thread was about the similarity in teachings of various spiritual teachers, so I'm not sure where the North Korean thing fits in, but whatever.

 

[Apone]

I don't personally know any North Koreans, so I would not presume to generalize what thay may or may not think and believe. This thread was about the similarity in teachings of various spiritual teachers, so I'm not sure where the North Korean thing fits in, but whatever.

If you don't know then why was your first reaction to give me a thumbs down and get all upset?

 

[JonMac]

If you don't know then why was your first reaction to give me a thumbs down and get all upset?

Because we were having an intelligent conversation about the similarity in teachings of spiritual teachers...this has nothing to do with that. And to say I "forgot one" on the pictures I posted felt as if you were ridiculing what I'd posted.

 

[Apone]

Because we were having an intelligent conversation about the similarity in teachings of spiritual teachers...this has nothing to do with that. And to say I "forgot one" on the pictures I posted felt as if you were ridiculing what I'd posted.

In your original post, you said teachings and stories... I'm not sure what the implication was, exactly. It would seem to me that if I were a cult leader, then I would find it much easier to build my religion/cult around ideas that had already been proven effective at getting people, especially people who weren't skeptical or critical and who were largely outcasts... to follow me. And then it would only be a matter of time before the politicians recognized the potential of my religion as an agent of social control and made it the official religion on a state level.

The so-called 'atheist' communist states largely began with the deification of their leaders, in order to assure strict obedience... and what better way to deify your leaders than to attribute to them all of the proven gimmicks-- performing miracles, profoundly 'truthful' statements, etc.

So yes, there are similarities in the characters of Jesus and of Kim Jong Il.

I usually use these kinds of examples because it helps to put things in perspective-- modern cults (including personality cults) are probably the best way to understand the nascent forms of the major religions... the only real difference is that time and popularity haven't made them unimpeachable in the public eye. If you look only at the similarities, then I'm certain that most if not all of them borrow from each other as well as the teachings of all of the major religions.

Actually, why not look at 'spiritually-themed' movies like The Matrix and the original Star Wars? Does it really make a difference if we're attributing widely accepted transcendent or superhuman natures to a character we know to be fictional, or if we're doing it for a fictionalized version of someone who actually lived?