Let's talk about Satan

[sprinkles]

Well, it's really "Serve me or not".
Joshua 25:15
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.
It is serving the Lord or other Gods. With consequences !

Well, yes, God is The Judger. He will judge based on his very moral essence, which is perfection ! So consequences will be judgements.
Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

I couldn't agree more. You got it. The life is not "just so happens to suck without God". All it's related to God, the Creator.

He has everything to do with the alternatives.
Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen. Like it says, to Him be the glory forever !

You're missing the plot.

I'm saying this is extortion and is immoral.

i.e. I'm saying God, as portrayed here, is being immoral. You have not changed that, only affirmed it.

 

[just me]

You're missing the plot.

I'm saying this is extortion and is immoral.

i.e. I'm saying God, as portrayed here, is being immoral. You have not changed that, only affirmed it.

How so? Hath not the potter power over the clay?

 

[the]

A sociopath can receive God's gift of Salvation just like anyone else can. He's a sinner like all the rest although a very cruel and sadistic one. Also he knows right from wrong, sociopaths realize that they're actions are harmful they just don't give a shit and hurt people for fun and for their own personal gain anyway. As for homosexuality my beliefs are strictly Biblical in regards to that and I don't really care if science says it's natural. Romans 1:26-27 There's lots of things that are natural in science that are deemed bad through the Bible. I prefer not to get into these topics because they're deeply personal. Homosexuality is for you and sociopathy is for me. I just thought I'd give you the Biblical viewpoint.

There is proof of God's gift of Salvation. It's the Word of God, the prophecies and the miracles themselves all recorded and documented in the Book itself. If you don't see this as proof that's fine. But blind faith isn't faith, it's delusion. Faith is believing in something you haven't seen because you've seen proof of something more. You ask why Salvation can't take place after death. I ask, why must it? What are you waiting for? You have this life. Why count on having a second one and not count on the fact that God's giving you a chance for a second one?

Seeing similarities between God and a thug or bully just because he requires you to believe in Him is ridiculous. If you weren't blaspheming him before then you are now. Faith is a deeply spiritual concept. I can only assume that God requires us to have faith for His own spiritual reasons. I can almost guarantee He has a reason for it though. He's not going to make people jump through "flaming hoops" as you put it for fun.

As for the reason God allows for pain, death, disease, famine, etc. He didn't create the world like this. Man did in the Garden of Eden. We live in an imperfect world because of sin. God didn't create the world to be full of evil things originally. It wasn't in his Plan.

As for the rest of your post it sounds to me like you despise the church and Christians more than the belief and God himself. Christians are evil screwed up sinners and the church has been destroyed because of them. I'm not going to disagree with you, it sucks and it goes against God's Plan.

Try to type in paragraphs. I can't get to all your information because it's just one long train of thought. I need more order to get to everything.

How is it that sin is not considered somethong natural for humans, but there's only been a handful of human's that never sinned?

 

[sprinkles]

How so? Hath not the potter power over the clay?

What does that have to do with anything?

The RUF had power over their clay. That power was chopping off people's arms to stop them from mining diamonds to support the government and discourage people from voting.

Might makes right I suppose.

 

[CogentPursuit]

Satan was addressed in Genesis 3, first chapter of the Bible. He took on the form of a serpent. I feel sure there is more to what happened in the Garden of Eden. I feel it was written simply and plainly for ease of understanding, as most people walk the path to understanding at the very surface of the spiritual. They walk on the ice, and Satan is hidden below the surface of the entire Bible.

In genesis it is an animal. Satan is never mentioned.

 

[CogentPursuit]

Actually they more than likely got it from Zoroastrianism during the Babylonian exile, or at least the beginnings of it, well before Paul ever was born.

Regardless, we're allowed hypothetical discussions whether Satan exists or not.

You are allowed anything. I am simply curios why you find it worth discussing an illegitimatly fabricated idea before we discuss how it would function. Would not the first step be the origin of such an idea to determine its worth?

 

[sprinkles]

You are allowed anything. I am simply curios why you find it worth discussing a fabricated idea.

Because I'm pragmatic, not necessarily realist.

In other words an idea doesn't have to be real to be useful, so I find it worth discussing to see exactly how useful it might actually be.

Also there's some hope to find something that I might have missed, learn something new, or hear something that I haven't heard a thousand times before.

 

[CogentPursuit]

Because I'm pragmatic, not necessarily realist.

In other words an idea doesn't have to be real to be useful, so I find it worth discussing to see exactly how useful it might actually be.

Also there's some hope to find something that I might have missed, learn something new, or hear something that I haven't heard a thousand times before.

I can agree with this. There is value in pursuing most anything. Even things that seemed the most improbable have changed the way we have viewed the world. There is also value in practicality. Perhaps a balance of both is best.

I do think though, that the source of the concept should be determined before we discuss how it would function. Context is important.

 

[LucyJr]

You're missing the plot.
I'm saying this is extortion and is immoral.

Nope, at all. I know what you're saying, those things are not said for the first time!

i.e. I'm saying God, as portrayed here, is being immoral. You have not changed that, only affirmed it.

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
It would be extortion if other possibilities have been in the plot. But there are two possibilities only: you either serve God with all your heart or you refuse to serve Him. Everything is related to God like I said.
The first possibility-serving God- is moraly perfect and is intrinsically good. The second one-not serving God-is morally evil and sinful against the Law of God.
So, the problem lays here : God is the absolute standard of perfection, and the Moral Law flows inherently from His very nature.To serve God it is morally perfect- the Moral Law, which is the nature of God, demands for God to be worshiped. That is to say, by His very essence, God must be worshiped and served. This lays in the nature of God, to be worshiped. If one don't like it, that's another thing.
To not worship God - this is immoral. Whatever it's immoral in Creation, will die spiritually.
Luke 19:40
“I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”
Ezekiel 18:4
The one who sins is the one who will die.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
One question for you, [MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION] : What do you believe, what is your worldview? I'm asking this because it's important to me to know with who am I speaking! Are you an atheist, a pantheist ? I am a christian .

 

[sprinkles]

Nope, at all. I know what you're saying, those things are not said for the first time!

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
It would be extortion if other possibilities have been in the plot.

I disagree. Extortion does not consider other possibilities as far as I see it. It only requires compliance, or you suffer. That's exactly what this is. I don't know where you get this idea that this is somehow different. Even if God can't do otherwise because God is 'perfect', it's still extortion.

But there are two possibilities only: you either serve God with all your heart or you refuse to serve Him. Everything is related to God like I said.

You serve God with all your heart or be punished if you refuse. Say it correctly!

The first possibility-serving God- is moraly perfect and is intrinsically good.

Intrinsic? I don't believe so.

The second one-not serving God-is morally evil and sinful against the Law of God.

Says who? God? Is it evil because God says it is, or is the evil independent of God?

So, the problem lays here : God is the absolute standard of perfection, and the Moral Law flows inherently from His very nature.

According to who or what?

To serve God it is morally perfect- the Moral Law, which is the nature of God, demands for God to be worshiped. That is to say, by His very essence, God must be worshiped and served. This lays in the nature of God, to be worshiped. If one don't like it, that's another thing.

'Must be' is the wrong choice of words I think.

To not worship God - this is immoral. Whatever it's immoral in Creation, will die spiritually.

Will be punished in eternal fire. Say it correctly!

One question for you, [MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION] : What do you believe, what is your worldview? I'm asking this because it's important to me to know with who am I speaking! Are you an atheist, a pantheist ? I am a christian .

I don't think it's important for you to know. Knowing about me should not change the information you give me in the slightest, and I will not be sidetracked, so I am not going to tell you.

 

[SealHammer]

One question for you, [MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION] : What do you believe, what is your worldview? I'm asking this because it's important to me to know with who am I speaking! Are you an atheist, a pantheist ? I am a christian .

Why should her religious views factor into the discussion? Weigh the points and ideas on their own merit, not on how you feel emotionally about the person presenting them.

 

[just me]

http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=1&c=3&com=mhc

One must piece together an entire book to understand the story, n'est pas?

 

[CogentPursuit]

I don't think it's important for you to know. Knowing about me should not change the information you give me in the slightest, and I will not be sidetracked, so I am not going to tell you.

You're already sidetracked from the topic about Satan.

 

[Skarekrow]

Nope, at all. I know what you're saying, those things are not said for the first time!

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
It would be extortion if other possibilities have been in the plot. But there are two possibilities only: you either serve God with all your heart or you refuse to serve Him. Everything is related to God like I said.
The first possibility-serving God- is moraly perfect and is intrinsically good. The second one-not serving God-is morally evil and sinful against the Law of God.
So, the problem lays here : God is the absolute standard of perfection, and the Moral Law flows inherently from His very nature.To serve God it is morally perfect- the Moral Law, which is the nature of God, demands for God to be worshiped. That is to say, by His very essence, God must be worshiped and served. This lays in the nature of God, to be worshiped. If one don't like it, that's another thing.
To not worship God - this is immoral. Whatever it's immoral in Creation, will die spiritually.
Luke 19:40
“I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”
Ezekiel 18:4
The one who sins is the one who will die.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
One question for you, @sprinkles : What do you believe, what is your worldview? I'm asking this because it's important to me to know with who am I speaking! Are you an atheist, a pantheist ? I am a christian .

The problem with Hell is an ethical problem related to religions in which portrayals of Hell are ostensibly cruel, and are thus inconsistent with the concepts of a just, moral and omnibenevolent God. The problem of Hell revolves around four key points: Hell exists in the first place, some people go there, there is no escape, and it is punishment for actions or inactions done on Earth.
The concept that nonbelievers of a particular religion face damnation is called special salvation. The concept that all are saved regardless of belief is referred to as universal reconciliation. The minority Christian doctrine that sinners are destroyed rather than punished eternally is referred to as annihilationism or conditional immorality.
There are several major issues to the problem of Hell. The first is whether the existence of Hell is compatible with justice. The second is whether it is compatible with God's mercy, especially as articulated in Christianity. A third issue, particular to Christianity, is whether Hell is actually populated, or if God will ultimately restore all immortal souls (universal reconciliation) in the world to come.
Criticisms of the doctrines of Hell can focus on the intensity or eternity of its torments, and arguments surrounding all these issues can invoke appeals to the omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence of God. In some aspects, the problem of Hell is similar to the problem of evil, assuming the suffering of Hell is something God could have prevented; The discussion regarding the problem of evil may then also be of interest for the problem of Hell.
The punishment of Hell is disproportionate to any crimes that could be committed, an overkill. Because human beings have a finite lifespan, they can commit only a finite number of sins, yet Hell is an infinite punishment.
Another argument against the justice of Hell is that humans are not culpable for their sins, since sinning is unavoidable to them. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Epistle to the Romans, 3:23).
Oh but what about our “free will”?
An Omniscient God would be aware of the future choice of the individual human's free will, to accept or reject God, prior to the creation of the individual human. This Omniscient God would then exercise his/her own free will in choosing to create a human that he/she knows, a priori, would be condemned to eternal torture. God could, in this circumstance, simply choose not to create the human. Such a choice would be incompatible with God's infinite mercy or omnibenevolence.
Some modern theorists claim that, even if Hell is seen as a choice rather than as punishment, it would be unreasonable for God to give such flawed and ignorant creatures as ourselves the responsibility of our eternal destinies.
In other words - God would not allow one to be eternally damned by a decision made under the wrong or flawed circumstances.
Well you could say that once a person finally and competently chooses to reject God, out of respect for the person's autonomy, God allows them to be annihilated. The fact that one must believe in God or be subject to eternal damnation or annihilation, even if the choice is completely made by a person, is often perceived as a scare tactic that inevitably forces or scares one into having to believe in God, and God would seem corrupt and evil in saying, "You can believe in me or not, but if you do not, you will either suffer for all eternity in Hell or else be destroyed or obliterated out-of-existence". The argument runs flaw in that as a matter of fact, God does not say "you can believe in me or not”. This rebuttal seems to work against itself by implying that since God does not give any other option, humans have no choice but to believe in God to enter Heaven; this view would ultimately brand God as evil for demanding worship on the threat of eternal damnation or annihilation.

 

[sprinkles]

You're already sidetracked from the topic about Satan.

Not really. I gave my views about Satan a while back and am now talking about other stuff.

I said I won't be sidetracked. This may be a side discussion from the thread, but I am exactly where I want to be.

 

[ThomasJ79]

Yes, he exists. He used to play hockey for the Boston Bruins and the Buffalo Sabres, but I think he's been too busy doing other things, like plotting to overthrow God or working on the next flu pandemic.

View attachment 19175

 

[Skarekrow]

This is a kind, omnibenevolent, just, and moral punishment?
The idea of Hell is bullshit.

 

[just me]

"Don't look down."

 

[CogentPursuit]

Not really. I gave my views about Satan a while back and am now talking about other stuff.

I said I won't be sidetracked. This may be a side discussion from the thread, but I am exactly where I want to be.

I like getting what I want at the expense of Barnabas too. Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

 

[sprinkles]

I like getting what I want at the expense of Barnabas too. Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

I have faith that people are at least grown enough to handle more than one line of discussion.

I never said I like it either. This is not for my amusement. I have better things to do for that.