Manipulation.

[NeverAmI]

Okay. All I'm saying is, everything you do, whether it's killing an intruder in defense (even if you're opposed to killing) or giving some beggar money, is because you needed to do that at that time (obviously not including an accidental decision/action). If something doesn't benefit you in some way, even if it's just a millisecond of feeling good about helping someone or whatever, you wouldn't do it. Therefore, everything you do is for your own benefit.

We can agree to disagree.

If I feel that a little bit of discomfort in me would give a significant amount of comfort in someone else, sometimes I will accept the little bit of discomfort. I honestly don't see what I gain by doing this. I often forget about times that I have helped other people, and often I don't even want to talk to them afterwards, I just want to move on. Perhaps there is some convoluted unconscious instinctual motivation in me to help others at times, even when I don't want to.

Unfortunately, people like this are easy to manipulate.

 

[TrevOrTrevor]

Having spent a good portion of my Life in retail and retail management, What am I doing when I am given too much change back and I always point out their error and return the extra cash.??

It's at this point that I simply know what it feels like to be short at the end of a shift and I do not wish this on someone else. It's empathy
and it is done soley for their benefit not mine.

There is no manipulation there and we both feel good at the end of it.

Right. I'm not saying it's manipulation so much as bringing to light that everyone "manipulates" everyone else in the way that they do what benefits them.
You give correct change back because you want them to know you're honest, you don't want to be dishonest, you want to feel good about being honest...etc. It's all about you when you cut the bullshit.

 

[TrevOrTrevor]

We can agree to disagree.

lol That's cool. I'm willing to agree to disagree so I don't feel like a jerk or make you irritated, which in turn, makes me feel good. lol

Fun talk! Peace dude!

 

[INFJesus]

Right. I'm not saying it's manipulation so much as bringing to light that everyone "manipulates" everyone else in the way that they do what benefits them.
You give correct change back because you want them to know you're honest, you don't want to be dishonest, you want to feel good about being honest...etc. It's all about you when you cut the bullshit.

Well it might be cold, But I cannot argue with such logic. It's flawless

 

[TrevOrTrevor]

lol I am cold on here I suppose. Really I'm just playing devils advocate...its just such fun!

 

[Morgain]

I think all humans are manipulative. You need to do that to survive in a social group. So I don't think it is bad.

But then there are manipulators who manipulate people not just to survive in a social group, but to gain something from that person, to keep a person under there control, make them emotional depending. That kind of manipulation creeps me out. When that happens to me, the ground under my feet disappears. It is because in default I trust people, I have to be able to trust people. I also have a good feeling about what is true and what is fake. So when I find out that someone was manipulating me the whole time and worse that he has been able to stay under my radar, it freaks me out, it hurts a lot. It is because this means my radar system has failed and I start to doubt my whole decision system. I have to reconsider every past event and to reanalyze every single person in my life to redecide what is true and what is fake.

But I will never trust that person again...

I think this is a good example of why I think I'm INFP.

 

[INFJesus]

I think all humans are manipulative. You need to do that to survive in a social group. So I don't think it is bad.

But then there are manipulators who manipulate people not just to survive in a social group, but to gain something from that person, to keep a person under there control, make them emotional depending. That kind of manipulation creeps me out. When that happens to me, the ground under my feet disappears. It is because in default I trust people, I have to be able to trust people. I also have a good feeling about what is true and what is fake. So when I find out that someone was manipulating me the whole time and worse that he has been able to stay under my radar, it freaks me out, it hurts a lot. It is because this means my radar system has failed and I start to doubt my whole decision system. I have to reconsider every past event and to reanalyze every single person in my life to redecide what is true and what is fake.

But I will never trust that person again...

I think this is a good example of why I think I'm INFP.

This is interesting, But What if this person was simply also just trying to survive? is it not possible that they themselves are not aware how manipulative they are being.?

I don't know, I just relate something to what you are saying and see how I would want to give someone a chance even if they were manipulating me. If that is all they knew at the time in order to survive. Or what if they were simply so ashamed of something in themselves that manipualtion was the only means they could use in order to not having that shame discovered?.
Could you not trust the person in the future if real growth was apparent?

 

[Morgain]

This is interesting, But What if this person was simply also just trying to survive? is it not possible that they themselves are not aware how manipulative they are being.?

I don't know, I just relate something to what you are saying and see how I would want to give someone a chance even if they were manipulating me. If that is all they knew at the time in order to survive. Or what if they wers imply so ashamed of something in themselves that manipualtion was the only means they could use in order to not having that shame discovered.
Could you not trust the person in the future if real growth was apparent?

that's a good question. I think I draw the line when someone does it on purpose, knowing that they are manipulating me to gain something from me. It is an instinct of mine. If I trusted a person and find out that they have been lying to me, using me or have been pretending to be nice but have been laughing with me behind my back, all the hairs on my body will rise and I will freeze down completely, I become very suspicious of everything and have a hard time building my trust again. I don't know why I do this...

If the other person just couldn't help it, I think most of the times I would sense that and than I can live with it, even protect this person against the judgements of others. If I didn't sense it, it is up to him/her to convince me they didn't ment to harm/use me.

If this person really changed and proves me for a while that he is trustable, I would start to trust him/her again ... offcourse ... I have a hard time slamming a door on someone but I need (sometimes a lot of) time!

 

[WellNoWonder]

I have a hard time slamming a door on someone but I need (sometimes a lot of) time!

I do this.

I think I do because I am trying to "compensate" for intuition. Like some people can walk past me (or post on a board) and make the hairs on my neck stand (like you mentioned), but I will give the person the benefit of a doubt anyway. I have to have concrete reasons.

I think that's why people like f*cking with INFJs personally. It appears people misinterpret our seemingly passive ways for just plain old gullibility when really we are aiming to pin down the reason why someone is behaving a certain way. It becomes this big ole mind game. I feel like a ninja most times when I am dealing with people. Like I have to be dark and crouched down in their back of their minds to figure out what's going so I don't get screwed.

And I think it's more for selfish reasons, like, not wanting to feel like a dumb ass when my intuition predicts incorrectly. Which really truly and honestly..it has not ever been wrong....ever. The problem is I don't listen to it enough.

Which is why I did a ninja move on the ENTP Saturday...just observed him while he was DJ'ing and the people who were around him. When I finally let myself be seen, he was visibly shaken. In a way it was a warning too. I'm a lot more sinister than I can appear to be, and I can manipulate too if pushed to that corner. Even though I don't like being there.

 

[WellNoWonder]

Right. I'm not saying it's manipulation so much as bringing to light that everyone "manipulates" everyone else in the way that they do what benefits them.
You give correct change back because you want them to know you're honest, you don't want to be dishonest, you want to feel good about being honest...etc. It's all about you when you cut the bullshit.

but when I cut the bullshit, just from my point of view, I give back the right change because the math I've done says the change I'm giving back is right. I don't trust the register.

 

[Gaze]

I do this.

I think I do because I am trying to "compensate" for intuition. Like some people can walk past me (or post on a board) and make the hairs on my neck stand (like you mentioned), but I will give the person the benefit of a doubt anyway. I have to have concrete reasons.

I think that's why people like f*cking with INFJs personally. It appears people misinterpret our seemingly passive ways for just plain old gullibility when really we are aiming to pin down the reason why someone is behaving a certain way. It becomes this big ole mind game. I feel like a ninja most times when I am dealing with people. Like I have to be dark and crouched down in their back of their minds to figure out what's going so I don't get screwed.

And I think it's more for selfish reasons, like, not wanting to feel like a dumb ass when my intuition predicts incorrectly. Which really truly and honestly..it has not ever been wrong....ever. The problem is I don't listen to it enough.

Quit reading my thought processes. Yep, that's exactly how i see it especially the part in bold.

 

[WellNoWonder]

Quit reading my thought processes. Yep, that's exactly how i see it especially the part in bold.

heh heh. I swear I wasn't ninja-ing your brain. hee hee.

 

[Gaze]

I've actually reached the point where i try to think one step ahead if i can, just so that i'm not caught offguard. I pretty much imagine the worst so that i'm not that surprised by it when it happens, even if it's a good friend. My defense mechanism is to anticipate or imagine all the possible/potential reasons for actions, ways someone can take advantage in a situation so that i'm not shocked when someone tries manipulation. But even if i know i'm being manipulated, of course, i'll still run with it. One truth i've learned, is that i can't be in control of everything, and i won't pretend to. I've been taken for a fool too many times, and i want ensure it doesn't happen too often (if i can help it). Unfortunately, some people are real geniuses at manipulation - you just won't see it coming however aware you might be, you find yourself being taken. Sometimes, we just don't see it coming or catch it in time to stop it from becoming a habit.

 

[anica]

Manipulation

I've actually reached the point where i try to think one step ahead if i can, just so that i'm not caught offguard. I'll try to think of all the possible motives, reasons, or feelings behind actions just so that i'm not shocked when someone tries manipulation. I pretty much imagine the worst so that i'm not that surprised by it when it happens, even if it's a good friend. My defense mechanism is to anticipate or imagine all the possible/potential reasons for actions, ways someone can take advantage in a situation but most of the time i'll still run with it. One truth i've learned, is that i can't be in control of everything, and i won't pretend to. I've been taken for a fool too many times, and i want ensure it doesn't happen too often (if i can help it). Unfortunately, some people are real geniuses at manipulation - you just won't see it coming and however aware you might be, you find yourself being taken. It happens. Sometimes, we just don't see it coming or catch it in time to stop it from becoming a habit.

Can we manipulate ourselves or is that called rationalization? I just got conned by a real pro and it hurts...terribly. What hurts the most maybe is I had every opportunity to put a stop to it before it got this far and didn't.

 

[Gaze]

Can we manipulate ourselves or is that called rationalization? I just got conned by a real pro and it hurts...terribly. What hurts the most maybe is I had every opportunity to put a stop to it before it got this far and didn't.

(Just a note: edited original post for wording and grammar)

Everyone is responsible for their actions. But i'm not going to hold myself responsible for anyone who tries to manipulate. I'm not saying it's good to let myself be taken but sometimes, there's nothing which can be done to stop it. i know my strength and weaknesses, and i won't pretend that i can outmanipulate (if there is such a word) anyone. And i'm not interested in proving that i can get around anyone or figure out the trick. Takes too much energy and effort. Not interested in mind games, playing them or figuring them out. I'm sure there's a ton of things i'm not aware of, good or bad, sometimes ignorance is bliss, and even if you are aware, let them think what they think. Nothing i say usually changes anything.

One of the most interesting things i've realized is that when i'm speaking to someone, i give them the full benefit of the doubt, but as soon as they leave the conversation, i immediately question everything they say, how they think, or the behavior they display. I guess when i'm speaking with someone, i'm mostly Fe, but then when i leave their presence, i'm almost totally Ti. i'm sure other people do this. Doubt i'm the only who thinks this way. Just par for the course.

 

[WellNoWonder]

(Just a note: edited original post for wording and grammar)

Everyone is responsible for their actions. But i'm not going to hold myself responsible for anyone who tries to manipulate. I'm not saying it's good to let myself be taken but sometimes, there's nothing which can be done to stop it. i know my strength and weaknesses, and i won't pretend that i can outmanipulate (if there is such a word) anyone. And i'm not interested in proving that i can get around anyone or figure out the trick. Takes too much energy and effort. Not interested in mind games, playing them or figuring them out. I'm sure there's a ton of things i'm not aware of, good or bad, sometimes ignorance is bliss, and even if you are aware, let them think what they think. Nothing i say usually changes anything.

One of the most interesting things i've realized is that when i'm speaking to someone, i give them the full benefit of the doubt, but as soon as they leave the conversation, i immediately question everything they say, how they think, or the behavior they display. I guess when i'm speaking with someone, i'm mostly Fe, but then when i leave their presence, i'm almost totally Ti. i'm sure other people do this. Doubt i'm the only who thinks this way. Just par for the course.

Good post.

One of the most interesting things i've realized is that when i'm speaking to someone, i give them the full benefit of the doubt, but as soon as they leave the conversation, i immediately question everything they say, how they think, or the behavior they display. I guess when i'm speaking with someone, i'm mostly Fe, but then when i leave their presence, i'm almost totally Ti. i'm sure other people do this. Doubt i'm the only who thinks this way. Just par for the course.

I am constantly doing this. My mind de-escalates from Fe to Ti. I say de-escalate because when using Fe, I feel my endorphins rushing.

 

[TrevOrTrevor]

(Just a note: edited original post for wording and grammar)

Everyone is responsible for their actions. But i'm not going to hold myself responsible for anyone who tries to manipulate. I'm not saying it's good to let myself be taken but sometimes, there's nothing which can be done to stop it. i know my strength and weaknesses, and i won't pretend that i can outmanipulate (if there is such a word) anyone. And i'm not interested in proving that i can get around anyone or figure out the trick. Takes too much energy and effort. Not interested in mind games, playing them or figuring them out. I'm sure there's a ton of things i'm not aware of, good or bad, sometimes ignorance is bliss, and even if you are aware, let them think what they think. Nothing i say usually changes anything.

One of the most interesting things i've realized is that when i'm speaking to someone, i give them the full benefit of the doubt, but as soon as they leave the conversation, i immediately question everything they say, how they think, or the behavior they display. I guess when i'm speaking with someone, i'm mostly Fe, but then when i leave their presence, i'm almost totally Ti. i'm sure other people do this. Doubt i'm the only who thinks this way. Just par for the course.

I totally agree. Us infj's have the 'power' to be extremely insightful. It's just a matter of focusing and becoming aware of the facts. I jump to conclusions too much when, chances are, the person is not trying to manipulate. Though, there's always some. I think the fact that I'm aware of the 'some' makes me on guard to everyone. I have to learn to trust people more. Even if they aren't trust worthy, who really gives a fuck right? I mean, we should just move on and take that experience for what its worth.

 

[NeverAmI]

and i won't pretend that i can outmanipulate (if there is such a word) anyone. And i'm not interested in proving that i can get around anyone or figure out the trick.

For me, this comes down to honesty vs dishonesty. To be manipulative you have to knowingly deceive, to present evidence that isn't genuine. I simply cannot, and will not, do this. Some individuals that are manipulative have VAST webs or frameworks of rationalities to explain how they aren't being dishonest. Usually the logic is flawed and they are either incapable of perceiving something or just misunderstand the topic completely.

Some people simply have different ways of perceiving things, that truth is subjective. Who is to say it isn't? Perhaps some would even go as far as to say that survival is the only truth? By survival I mean the survival of one vs the survival of many. That is a very scary concept for me.