MBTI and race/culture/nationality - Male Feelers

[La Sagna]

I have been reading about most Feelers being women and the idea that male Feelers seem to be seen as having more feminine traits. This left me really wondering because all the males in my family are Feelers and I believe that many of the males in my extended family are also Feelers. This has meant that I have not really identified the F characteristics as being necessarily feminine.

I think that this has something to do with my background. I am French from Québec but I have been living in English Canada for a long time and I strongly believe that there is a much higher percentage of male Feelers in French Canada than there is in English Canada. I'm not sure there is much of a difference in the percentage of women Feelers or at least it is not as noticeable.

I've never been much interested in dividing people between race or cultural lines but I thought this observation was very interesting. For me, there is a distinct different 'feel' when I am in Québec than when I am in English Canada, and I think this might be partly why. I am quite certain that there are more Feelers than average in Québec.

My dad is an ESFJ and my mom was an ESFP and I have a feeling that there are probably a lot of both of those types in Québec.

 

[Dohavior]

Wow ESFJ and ESFP parents how do you ever get a word in anywhere? ISFJ mom and ESTJ dad here.

What you think you are, what others perceive you as, and what you really are will be completely different things. Its that whole explanatory gap scenario. Have you ever heard yourself on an answering machine it sounds totally weird doesn't it? Like who is that calling me... its me... kind of creepy too.


And hey the next time you want to talk about "Male Feelers" bring at least one stripper. Thread was kind of disappointing from T perspective. :/

 

[Quiet]

I think these things have a lot to do with what our idea of a 'feeler' is and our ideas about gender.

There is probably a correlation there somewhere with culture.

I think it probably has a lot to do with family/environment. These things are effected by cultural identification, but its hard to say what the extent is, because there are many variables.
My dad is infp. He is a 'feeler'... and he is also very masculine in his way, whatever that means! But growing up with him absolutely effected the way in which i percieve other males.

I dont really associate feeling with women and thinking with men. And 'thinkers' can be very emotional, and 'feelers' can be very 'rational'.
These labels are a big vague, and in some ways prevent us from really seeing the person.
From a mbti perspective, each person uses intuition, feeling, thinking and sensing. We just use them with varying focus.
Perhaps being a 'thinker' or 'feeler' is more relavant when these are the person's dominant function- ESFJ, ESTJ, ENTJ, ENFJ, INFP, ISFP, INTP, ISTP. I can see that to an extent.
But in my experience, it is hard to judge. The dominant and inferior functions are important, but so are the secondary and the tertiary, it only makes sense when the whole cognitive function stack is taken into account.


For example, my best friend is an ENTP, and he is very 'feely'. Fe is his tertiary function and it is very much valued and honed by him. My INTJ friend is... in my opinion, totally mushy- tertiary function is Fi. I know an ESTJ that is one of the most warmest, kindest, 'feeliest' people i know. And his INFJ wife, whom i also adore, comes across as very rational and sometimes cold to people, not 'feely'. I could give many examples, but the point is, the 'f' or 't' is very little to go on, in terms of understanding the person's mbti

 

[barbad0s]

The cultures just create different limitations for how people are expected to express themselves. It's highly unlikely that culture could change personality type at such an innate level; at most it encourages certain traits to be expressed or repressed more.

 

[djpyro21]

Absolutely. Every culture has a preferred informational cognitive function (Te, Fe, Fi, Ti) and it acts as a filter that enforces development of that function irregardless of type.

For example: Germany (Te), UK (Fe), USA (Fi)

A colleague is an ESTJ from the UK and it is a lovely combination. She has the strength of Te and the reserve to not step on peoples toes. Though I imagine getting to that point must have been quite a task since Fe doesn't come naturally.

 

[Dohavior]

The cultures just create different limitations for how people are expected to express themselves. It's highly unlikely that culture could change personality type at such an innate level; at most it encourages certain traits to be expressed or repressed more.

Why are you women talking about cultivation is this a husbandry thing?

The origin of the manner in which you use the word culture refers back to dark times of mad science and some seriously strange stuff. Its foundation is in Teleology which is often rampantly disagreed upon. Culture I would say when applied to people is a fighting word its much akin to racism of the soul. Intrinsic Finality doesn't actually exist its an illusion of our natural limitations. I think Carl Jung wrote upon Teleology some. You have to understand the barbarism behind applied Stoic Logic its nothing short of non empirical ad hominem.

 

[La Sagna]

Wow ESFJ and ESFP parents how do you ever get a word in anywhere?

I was the quiet one for sure,except if my dad would push my buttons and I'd have to defend some cause that was important to me.

And hey the next time you want to talk about "Male Feelers" bring at least one stripper. Thread was kind of disappointing from T perspective. :/

It seems that is something else there is lots of in Québec.

 

[La Sagna]

I think it probably has a lot to do with family/environment. These things are effected by cultural identification, but its hard to say what the extent is, because there are many variables.

I agree and I wonder if men appear more as Feelers because that is more acceptable in French culture, or maybe it is more acceptable in French culture because men Feelers are more common. Men in Québec in general seem to be much more open to showing emotions and also much more accepting of men having supposed 'feminine qualities'. My husband who is an ESTP says, in his usual diplomatic way, that they are all 'gay'.

For example, my best friend is an ENTP, and he is very 'feely'. Fe is his tertiary function and it is very much valued and honed by him. My INTJ friend is... in my opinion, totally mushy- tertiary function is Fi. I know an ESTJ that is one of the most warmest, kindest, 'feeliest' people i know. And his INFJ wife, whom i also adore, comes across as very rational and sometimes cold to people, not 'feely'. I could give many examples, but the point is, the 'f' or 't' is very little to go on, in terms of understanding the person's mbti

I understand what you are saying and I have to admit I have a lot of learning to do when it comes to MBTI and how the functions work. I have to use my personal experiences with the people that are close to me to be able to get an understanding about how they work. I know in my family I probably appear as the one who is more logical and less emotional but I think this is because I can 'hold it together' in very difficult emotional situations and I tend to keep my feelings to myself. I feel the need to be strong so I can help everybody else and not burden them with my emotions. This might also be because they are all extroverts so they have no problem telling the whole world how they feel.

I have to say though that I have a friend who is an ESTJ for sure and even though I love him and he is a good caregiver for his family with cooking and cleaning, he is definitly not what I would consider 'warm and kind', he can be quite difficult and doesn't mince words to spare anybody's feelings.

 

[La Sagna]

The cultures just create different limitations for how people are expected to express themselves. It's highly unlikely that culture could change personality type at such an innate level; at most it encourages certain traits to be expressed or repressed more.

Yes, but since we consider a certain percentage of our personality as genetic, couldn't certain racial groups pass along genetic traits that would influence which type you are? Just like certain countries seem to have more introverts, couldn't French people have more Feelers? Introversion has been proven to be biologically based so why couldn't the tendency to use feelings also be biological?

 

[muir]

Yes, but since we consider a certain percentage of our personality as genetic, couldn't certain racial groups pass along genetic traits that would influence which type you are? Just like certain countries seem to have more introverts, couldn't French people have more Feelers? Introversion has been proven to be biologically based so why couldn't the tendency to use feelings also be biological?

I think there is a biological aspect and a cultural aspect

Culture doesn't always align with our biology though. Sometimes a culture is imposed on people

 

[La Sagna]

Culture doesn't always align with our biology though. Sometimes a culture is imposed on people

I agree, but I think that culture might promote certain characteristics as being 'good' and therefore will allow people to show those traits more openly or if one's characteristics are deamed as being 'negative', such as men crying, then people will hide these tendencies but it doesn't actualy change the person except that they are hiding their true self.

I know that I masqueraded as ISFJ for most of my adult life, because that is what I felt was expected of me as a mother. It never changed the fact that I was an INFJ and now that my kids are grown up people are surprised at my 'personality change'. I was never really an ISFJ, I just molded myself into that shape to satisfy cultural expectations. I know that the idea of the perfect ISFJ mother is not as pervasive these days but coming from a family where mom stayed home and married to a man who's parents were older and therefore from a previous generation that is what I felt was expected. I have no doubt that both women and men had to blend in even more to cultural expectations in the past, or even today in many patriarchal societies.

 

[muir]

I agree, but I think that culture might promote certain characteristics as being 'good' and therefore will allow people to show those traits more openly or if one's characteristics are deamed as being 'negative', such as men crying, then people will hide these tendencies but it doesn't actualy change the person except that they are hiding their true self.

I know that I masqueraded as ISFJ for most of my adult life, because that is what I felt was expected of me as a mother. It never changed the fact that I was an INFJ and now that my kids are grown up people are surprised at my 'personality change'. I was never really an ISFJ, I just molded myself into that shape to satisfy cultural expectations. I know that the idea of the perfect ISFJ mother is not as pervasive these days but coming from a family where mom stayed home and married to a man who's parents were older and therefore from a previous generation that is what I felt was expected. I have no doubt that both women and men had to blend in even more to cultural expectations in the past, or even today in many patriarchal societies.

There is absolutely no doubt that male INFJ's often have to be careful what side of themselves they present

The more macho a culture they live in the more care they will need to take

 

[LucyJr]

I agree, but I think that culture might promote certain characteristics as being 'good' and therefore will allow people to show those traits more openly or if one's characteristics are deamed as being 'negative', such as men crying, then people will hide these tendencies but it doesn't actualy change the person except that they are hiding their true self.

I know that I masqueraded as ISFJ for most of my adult life, because that is what I felt was expected of me as a mother. It never changed the fact that I was an INFJ and now that my kids are grown up people are surprised at my 'personality change'. I was never really an ISFJ, I just molded myself into that shape to satisfy cultural expectations. I know that the idea of the perfect ISFJ mother is not as pervasive these days but coming from a family where mom stayed home and married to a man who's parents were older and therefore from a previous generation that is what I felt was expected. I have no doubt that both women and men had to blend in even more to cultural expectations in the past, or even today in many patriarchal societies.

I personally think other types do cry too, is just that they don't like emotions.They consider it a weakness and try to hide it. It's the same with feelings.

I never tried to hide my emotions, although I did grew up in a harshly enviroment, mostly at school. But I was known as one of the smartest guy in school who never backups from a fight. My little ESTP brother would get himself in troubles alot, and I always ended up geting in fights from him, against the bad guys in our neighborhood. So I don't believe in the "macho" think. Usually "macho males" are not very courageous, they just have a big mouth, which hides a weak character.

But is true, usually the "unemotional" types many times despise the people who express their emotions. Is just that you have to put them back in their place, teach them some basic manners...

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

I heard a white iNtuitive say black people are sensors. Though I'm pretty sure it's because he's a generalizing racist INTP.

[edit]
Some context

 

[barbad0s]

Yes, but since we consider a certain percentage of our personality as genetic, couldn't certain racial groups pass along genetic traits that would influence which type you are? Just like certain countries seem to have more introverts, couldn't French people have more Feelers? Introversion has been proven to be biologically based so why couldn't the tendency to use feelings also be biological?

I'm aware that temperament has a certain genetic correlation, but could you provide your source for the claim that introversion has been proven to be biologically based?

PS If you want people to know that you've replied to something they said, press the "quote" button under their post.

 

[La Sagna]

I'm aware that temperament has a certain genetic correlation, but could you provide your source for the claim that introversion has been proven to be biologically based?

PS If you want people to know that you've replied to something they said, press the "quote" button under their post.

Thank you for the information about the quote button. I had no idea.

There is actually quite a lot of information on studies showing a biological basis for introversion and extroversion. Here are some examples:

A Topographic study of differences in the P300 between introverts and extraverts

Martha A. Wilson,
Marlin L. Languis


Summary


This paper presents results of a study to establish a link between neurocognitive psychophysiological and psychological type data through the investigation of differences in topographic auditory event-related potential (AERP) (P300) patterns in strongly introverted (n=17) and strongly extraverted (n=16) high school males as identified by the Myers Briggs Type Indicator. Group data files were created for the auditory event related potential task and converted to ASCII form. Amplitude values were evaluated at each scalp site. Kruskal Wallis one way analysis of variance was performed to evaluate group differences. In processing of infrequent, target stimuli, the amplitude of the P300 waveform for introverts was higher than for extraverts. When processing for non-target stimuli was subtracted from target stimuli, statistical differences were found over nine central, parietal, and occipital sites. The findings support and extend theories of biologically-based and bio-psycho-social typology.


Introverts At The Front, Extroverts To The Rear


A University of Iowa study adds to growing evidence that being shy or outgoing may be all in your head. Investigators looking at cerebral blood flow and personality found more conclusive signs of different brain activity in introverts and extroverts.

This is the first study to reveal the connections between activity of the thalamus and introversion and extroversion, said Debra L. Johnson, Ph.D., UI assistant research scientist in psychology and the study's lead investigator. "We found more evidence that people might be shy or outgoing because of the way their brains are structured, not because of experiences they've had."

Previous studies have shown that introversion and extroversion are based on variations in brain function, but those studies did not describe all the locations found in this study. The UI researchers examined 18 healthy individuals using positron emission tomography (PET) scans, which can provide a high-resolution image of the entire head.

The PET scans revealed that introverts have more activity in the frontal lobes of the brain and anterior, or front, thalamus. These areas are activated when a person's brain takes on internal processing such as remembering, problem solving and planning. Extroverts exhibit more activity in the anterior cingulate gyrus, temporal lobes and posterior thalamus. These areas are typically thought to be more involved in sensory processing such as listening, watching or driving.

The differences in cognitive style and sensory-processing relate to the qualities associated with introversion and extroversion. True introverts are quiet, inwardly focused and reclusive. Extroverts are gregarious, socially active and sensation seeking.

"Introverts get more of their stimulation internally, whereas extroverts seek outside sources," Johnson said. "Extremely introverted and extroverted personalities are two ends of a continuum, with most people falling somewhere in between."

Johnson added, "The implication is that one personality trait -- introversion or extroversion - isn't right or wrong. These variations in brain activity suggest that a lot of our individual differences have an underlying biological cause."


Neural Clues

For one thing, a 2012 study by Harvard psychologist Randy Buckner found that people who identify as introverts tend to have larger and thicker gray matter in certain areas of the prefrontal cortex, a highly complex brain region associated with abstract thought and decision-making. People who identify as strongly extroverted, on the other hand, tend to have thinner gray matter in those same prefrontal areas—which hints that introverts tend to devote more neural resources to abstract pondering, while extroverts tend to live in the moment.

A 2013 study by Cornell University scientists Richard A. Depue and Yu Fu supports this idea. This team of investigators gathered a mixed sample of introverts and extroverts, then randomly split these volunteers into two groups. The first group took the stimulant Ritalin, while the second group took a placebo. The researchers then showed the participants a series of videos such as random landscape shots and forest scenes.

After three days of video-watching, the researchers took away the drugs and showed the films again, and then measured the subjects’ alertness and demeanor. Extroverts who’d taken Ritalin were excited by the films even in the absence of the drug; extroverts who hadn’t showed no change in their reaction to the films. These people had instinctively associated exciting feelings, if they had them, with the videos they’d watched.

But introverts weren’t happier or more alert post-video, regardless of whether they’d taken Ritalin or not. The Cornell researchers think this finding is rooted in a crucial difference between the ways introverts and extroverts process feelings of excitement. Extroverts, the researchers believe, tend to associate feelings of reward with their immediate environment, whereas introverts tend to associate them with their inner thoughts—or perhaps interpret them as anxiety rather than excitement.



Intriguing Hints


Other studies have found that the right-hemisphere amygdala tends to be larger in extroverts than in introverts, as does the anterior cingulate cortex—except in female extroverts, whose anterior cingulate cortices are apparently smaller than those of female introverts. Since other studies have implicated the anterior cingulate in social error detection, this may point to some underlying (but still incompletely understood) differences in the ways introverts and extroverts process social missteps.

Personality differences may have physical effects. Though no one’s been able to measure a difference in reaction time between extroverts and introverts, researchers have found that an introvert’s premotor cortex tends to process stimuli more quickly than that of an extrovert.

Still other studies have found that cortical neurons of introverts and extroverts may respond differently to the neurotransmitter chemicals gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) and N-methyl D-aspartate (NMDA)—an intriguing finding since both GABA and NMDA have both been implicated in anxiety disorders

 

[La Sagna]

I'm aware that temperament has a certain genetic correlation, but could you provide your source for the claim that introversion has been proven to be biologically based?

PS If you want people to know that you've replied to something they said, press the "quote" button under their post.

Sorry I did that wrong. I needed to press the quote button first

 

[La Sagna]

Here is a synopsis of what is know about the biological difference between the brain function of introverts compared to extroverts, based on information from the book 'The Introvert Advantage' :

There are four key differences between the introvert and extrovert brain: the quantity of blood that flows to the brain, the path the blood takes through the brain, the chemicals needed to feel good and the type of nervous system most commonly activated.

Introverts have a greater blood flow to the brain than extroverts. Blood flows to parts of the body that are stimulated, suggesting that introverted individuals tend to be more easily stimulated than extroverted induviduals. Extroverts must compensate for this by appealing to the outside environment for stimulation through social contact, new experiences and physical activity, which is why they tend to be more engaged with the outside world.

What’s more, the path the blood takes within the introvert’s brain is longer and more complex than that of the extrovert. Perhaps unsurprisingly, blood in the introvert brain flows through areas that have a greater internal focus: like memory and planning. The extrovert blood pathway takes a more experiential route, focusing mostly on immediate sense experiences (excluding smell, for some reason).

Thirdly, introverts and extroverts require different chemicals to feel good. The extrovert engine needs dopamine to run, and lots of it. Unfortunately, the extrovert neural pathway is not very sensitive to dopamine and it must make more using adrenaline. Adrenaline is produced during action, which is why extroverts feel good the more active they are: they produce more adrenaline which in turn produces more dopamine.

Introverts, with their increased blood flow, are more sensitive to dopamine and can easily overindulge. So their dominant brain pathway avoids dopamine and instead uses the neurotransmitter acetylcholine (a-see-to-ko-leen). This chemical produces a good feeling when the person is engaged in thinking or feeling, so these activities are likely to be more rewarding than action for the introverted person.

Dopamine and acetylcholine activate different nervous systems. The sympathetic nervous system (“fight or flight”) is activated by dopamine and prompts action. The parasympathetic nervous system, on the other hand, is activated by acetylcholine and prompts withdrawal. The two clearly have parallels with the everyday behaviour of introverts and extroverts. Under stress, a person is more likely to revert to their dominant mode of functioning. In a “neutral” but stressful situation (rather than one that clearly requires a specific response, like being chased by a tiger) extroverts and likely to leap into nervous actions and introverts are likely to shut-down and withdraw.

The physiological quirks of introverts have a couple of interesting side-effects: due to their tendency to use a longer brain pathway, introverts have a slower response time than extroverts. It often takes them a while to process information before coming to a conclusion. Additionally, an introvert’s long-term memory is much better than their short term memory. They may not be able to remember where they just put their glasses down but their recall of experiences in the distant past or information learnt a long time ago is comparatively very good.

 

[muir]

Here is a synopsis of what is know about the biological difference between the brain function of introverts compared to extroverts, based on information from the book 'The Introvert Advantage' :

There are four key differences between the introvert and extrovert brain: the quantity of blood that flows to the brain, the path the blood takes through the brain, the chemicals needed to feel good and the type of nervous system most commonly activated.

Introverts have a greater blood flow to the brain than extroverts. Blood flows to parts of the body that are stimulated, suggesting that introverted individuals tend to be more easily stimulated than extroverted induviduals. Extroverts must compensate for this by appealing to the outside environment for stimulation through social contact, new experiences and physical activity, which is why they tend to be more engaged with the outside world.

What’s more, the path the blood takes within the introvert’s brain is longer and more complex than that of the extrovert. Perhaps unsurprisingly, blood in the introvert brain flows through areas that have a greater internal focus: like memory and planning. The extrovert blood pathway takes a more experiential route, focusing mostly on immediate sense experiences (excluding smell, for some reason).

Thirdly, introverts and extroverts require different chemicals to feel good. The extrovert engine needs dopamine to run, and lots of it. Unfortunately, the extrovert neural pathway is not very sensitive to dopamine and it must make more using adrenaline. Adrenaline is produced during action, which is why extroverts feel good the more active they are: they produce more adrenaline which in turn produces more dopamine.

Introverts, with their increased blood flow, are more sensitive to dopamine and can easily overindulge. So their dominant brain pathway avoids dopamine and instead uses the neurotransmitter acetylcholine (a-see-to-ko-leen). This chemical produces a good feeling when the person is engaged in thinking or feeling, so these activities are likely to be more rewarding than action for the introverted person.

Dopamine and acetylcholine activate different nervous systems. The sympathetic nervous system (“fight or flight”) is activated by dopamine and prompts action. The parasympathetic nervous system, on the other hand, is activated by acetylcholine and prompts withdrawal. The two clearly have parallels with the everyday behaviour of introverts and extroverts. Under stress, a person is more likely to revert to their dominant mode of functioning. In a “neutral” but stressful situation (rather than one that clearly requires a specific response, like being chased by a tiger) extroverts and likely to leap into nervous actions and introverts are likely to shut-down and withdraw.

The physiological quirks of introverts have a couple of interesting side-effects: due to their tendency to use a longer brain pathway, introverts have a slower response time than extroverts. It often takes them a while to process information before coming to a conclusion. Additionally, an introvert’s long-term memory is much better than their short term memory. They may not be able to remember where they just put their glasses down but their recall of experiences in the distant past or information learnt a long time ago is comparatively very good.

Very interesting!

The only bit i'm unsure about is the response time bit...generally yes extroverts will leave me for dead in conversations...but in terms of movement if i'm initiating my movement i think i'm as quick as any extrovert (modesty aside i'd say i'm quicker)...fast reflexes....i excelled at reflex games when i was younger eg table tennis or slappies or whatever and i'll often catch objects knocked off a table.

 

[La Sagna]

Very interesting!

The only bit i'm unsure about is the response time bit...generally yes extroverts will leave me for dead in conversations...but in terms of movement if i'm initiating my movement i think i'm as quick as any extrovert (modesty aside i'd say i'm quicker)...fast reflexes....i excelled at reflex games when i was younger eg table tennis or slappies or whatever and i'll often catch objects knocked off a table.

I also have pretty quick reflexes for things like games and non-stressful situations. On the other hand I somehow seem to shut down when I am faced with a crisis situation such as a fire. I accidentally set fire to a room once and I was lucky enough to have others with me there because my brain just shut off and when they were asking questions like 'where is your fire-extinguisher? or where is the nearest source of water? or how about a blanket?' I couldn't even answer, even though I knew all those things. My very extroverted husband though is an ace in a crisis. He can think very quickly. Maybe that's what they mean.

My husband says that I am 'weak' because of my slow response time in such a situation. Once the fire is out though I'm ok and I can take over and take care of everything better than he can. There are strengths in both types of reactions. Although, I guess if I don't react and die in the emergency event then I won't have a chance to use my strengths. He does have a point there.