MBTI Misconceptions

I can't remember where I read it but I remember someone saying that iNtuitives make terrible scientists because they form a conclusion before they conduct a test, or omit any observations that don't comply with their hypothesis.

:m049:

I am a chemistry major so yeah I beat that :D
 
Understanding MBTI

MBTI uses a lot of alternate definitions for common words, but is shy on actually providing you with those definitions. I want to make sure I've got this straight now. Please correct me where I err.

MBTI assumes that you have two major functions - one introverted and one extroverted, allowing you to deal with the world within and the world without. Also, one is for collecting information, the other is for processing information.

The I/E (1st letter) in MBTI only means where the 2nd letter is an introverted or extraverted function.

The 2nd letter states how you collect information. Intuition means filling in gaps with guesswork, striving to see the whole picture, generally a large-scale view of things. Sensing means focusing on details, seeing things up-close, generally a zoomed-in view of things.

The 3rd letter states how you make decisions. Thinking means making decisions objectively, based on measurable criteria such as performance. Feeling means making decisions subjectively, based more on context and people (I'm wording this poorly).

The 4th letter states whether your 2nd or 3rd letter has dominance. This part I'm really not sure about, but it's my current theory about the MBTI theory.

Please correct me! I want to understand this.
 
I think a lot of the Jung's and the MBTI terms are misleading, a lot of the terms are too loaded with meaning from outside the theory.


The words:

Thinking
Feeling
Introverted
Extroverted
Preference
Intuition
Sensing
Perceiving
Judging

As a part of the theory they mean very different things from the more common use of these terms. Some of the more common errors are the introversion/extroversion, people often seem to relate these to shy/outgoing. Yet when it comes to Jung, it's not so black and white, there are many shades of grey, I prefer the more subtle approach of Jung to the more black and white approach of Myers-Briggs (and the even more black and whiteness of the common usage of the terms).
 
So... was that a hit or a miss?
 
I think you're right, but I'm no expert myself. :D
 
For a while, I had the hardest time keeping introversion and shyness apart. What I realize now is that they have about as much in common as infj and infps.
 
Yeah, the I/E thing is hard, especially when it comes to explaining it to people....I'm very introverted, but I'm also quite "outgoing." I talk a lot, but I don't really tell people what I think or feel and I almost always think before I say anything -- I just do it quickly. Introverted, but not shy.
 
The thing is, I AM short sighted, the problem is when people only see the value in their own preferences, being short sighted often has immense value, particulary in a chaotic and unpredictable world, being able to spot immediate threats and opportunities that arise and change tack to take advantage of those can be a powerful thing, we (SPs) are not bogged doing thinking about how things have been done (SJ) or what might happen in the future (N), this give us extrordinary flexibility and adaptability in changing environments.

I'm working on quashing it. I HATE IT. And I've noticed at other forums/communities (not here, though) that a lot of people have that attitude and really believe it, and will talk about it openly like there's nothing wrong with it. "S types are not as advanced on the evolutionary ladder." It's disgusting.

Not only that but it's illogical, as two N parents can have S children, then evolution becomes irrelevant.

To me, this says that the person making those ridiculous judgments is actually insecure about their own intelligence.

Exactly right, it's sad really.

Much the same way introverts often feel put down by an extraverted society, I think some intuitives (including me) are intimidated by S types, maybe put down by some of them, because they have different skill sets and can easily make each other feel incompetent in different ways. You'd think MBTI would help people realize this misconception and fix it, but some people just take it as proof of the superiority of their type. :-/

That is the sad thing about MBTI, it has so much potential put is so often used poorly. Also some people will jump at anything that creates new "in" and "out" groups.
 
The thing is, I AM short sighted, the problem is when people only see the value in their own preferences, being short sighted often has immense value, particulary in a chaotic and unpredictable world, being able to spot immediate threats and opportunities that arise and change tack to take advantage of those can be a powerful thing, we (SPs) are not bogged doing thinking about how things have been done (SJ) or what might happen in the future (N), this give us extrordinary flexibility and adaptability in changing environments.

I look up to that. I mean - the ability to live in the present and not get bogged down by things, to take life as it comes? Talk about amazing!
 
This is something I find very interesting about type, it is very hard to leave our biases behind because they (especially our first two functions) encompasses our whole way of perceiving and judging the world. It's almost a surprise to me when other people don't see the world through an Fi lense. On another forum, I noticed myself referring to men who expect women to change their bodies to impress men as "stupid", for me often a lack of Fi = stupid.

For Ni dominants perhaps being able see beyond concrete reality is a sign of intelligence. Perhaps for a Ne dom, being able to interpret and connect unrelated concepts might be a sign of intelligence. Te dom an ability to formulate logical systems might be intelligence etc.

It's interesting exploring our biases.
 
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Just what is intelligence? Everybody wants it. Everyone agrees it's desirable to have. And yet there are so many differing definitions of what intelligence is. Sometimes the only commonality among them is "if I have intelligence you should take me seriously."

But discussing biases is good too! ^_^
 
Just had a thought, is it right that Te creates systems and Ti breaks them down? If so does that mean that Fe creates social systems and Fi breaks them down?
 
Just had a thought, is it right that Te creates systems and Ti breaks them down? If so does that mean that Fe creates social systems and Fi breaks them down?

I would say Fe connects value systems and Fi evaluates value systems, but I'm no Von.
 
but I'm no Von.

Tee hee~

Although I would agree with you. Fe is more about creating more widescale, outer value systems, where Fi is more about creating personal, individualized systems, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it goes against common values
 
The J functions are often misunderstood. I'm glad this was brought up in this thread.

The J Function - One Single Function


The J functions are the processes by which we reason. Everyone uses all of them, regardless of type, when reasoning. The distinctions are in preferences in deduction process, not distinctions in function or capacity. To say that someone is Fe dominant is not to presume that they have no ability to use preferences associated with Te or even Fi. There is no truth to this because Fe, Te, Fi, and Ti don't actually exist as entities. The cognitive processes are T, F, i, and e. When these cognitive function elements combine, they form pairs. These pairs are not distinct sections of the mind, nor are the elements that comprise them. They are all parts of the whole that is an individual's ability to reason - half of the process of cognition.

In the case of our Fe dominant individual, it simply means that the individual prefers to base their deduction process from a perspective of F and e. This implies that their corresponding preferences are likely preferencially paired. In this case T and i. Again, these are nothing more than preferences in process, not capacity, and are certainly not exclusive. An individual with a strong ability to reason will develop their F, T, i, and e in turn, and most importantly - will be able to use them in alternate conjunctions. Our Fe and Ti individual will eventually develop capacity in Te and Fi preferences as a result of using Fe and Ti because they are using F, e, T, and i. This is why people tend to follow the pattern of Fe, Ti, Fi, and Te as preference heirarchy. Individuals find a successful method of thinking and base their reasoning upon it, diverging as required. Hence, preference.

To presume that because someone is Fe dominant, they cannot Te and take a measurement, Ti and understand how something works, or Fi and have a sincere emotion is simply foolish. When someone has a preference for Fe, it simply means that they prefer to start their reasoning with F and e. This is what causes 'personality'. One person gives more preference to Fi while another Te. Both of them have the ability to use the other functions, they simply prefer their more familiar functions.

Okay, now that we have that misconception beaten down...

Thinking and Feeling - Cognitive Reasoning

F is called Feeling. There is a tremendous misconception about this function because of the name. The assumptions center around this function being based in emotion. It isn't. Emotions are not cognitive functions. Emotions cannot reason. The F function is not 'emotional logic'. The F function is philosophical reasoning. It is concerned with emotion, but it is also concerned with relationships, interactions, proportions, associations, and the abstract. The F function is non-verbal right brained reasoning. At it's core, the F function asks 'why?'. The F function is responsible for assessing needs, and making inferences that have no measurable quantification, such as non-verbal communication. How the color of that shirt makes her eyes look, how the light in this room changes them both, and how it makes you feel (aka how you choose to feel) are all F functions. A lot of actual Philosophy is tied into the F function, but don't confuse the subject of Philosophy with philosophical reasoning.

When F is extroverted, it becomes focused on the philosophical relationships, interactions, proportions, and associations of the shared world. When F is introverted, it becomes focused on the relationships, interactions, proportions, and associations of the individual. It is impossible to be F dominant and not have a capacity for both of these approaches. The difference in personality lies in which is the individual's preferred function. Fe dominants are more inclined to look at the relationships in the world around them as distinct and seperate parts of a whole in which they are included. Fi dominants are more inclined to take a perspective of their own feelings and how they are affected by the relationships in the world around them. The distinction is subtle because the F function is inherently both Fe and Fi. Fe's will tend to be sympathetic, while Fi's will be empathetic. Fe's will tend to prioritize the needs of others as equal or ahead of their own. Fi's will tend to put their own needs as a higher priority than those of others, or at least equal.

The T function works exactly the same way. It is inherently an entity unto itself. It is pragmatic, logical, and left brained reasoning. The T function inherent asks 'How?'. When the T function is extroverted, it is generalized, and applied to the world outside the individual as a whole. When the T function is introverted, it is applied to the specific, and the workings of a particular object or subject. Te preference people tend to focus their logic on the workings of the big picture. Ti preference people tend to focus their logic on the workings of the individual parts.

However, F cannot exist without T and T cannot exist without F, because they are both parts of the overall J function. T has to have philosophical reasoning, or it could not grasp anything that is not perfectly logical. F has to have logical reasoning, or it would be purely reactive unassociated instinct. Both T and F comprise the J function as a whole. To say that someone is Fe dominant implies that they are also using the Ti, Te, and of course Fi inclinations of their ability to reason - at the same time. They just tend to lean more on the Fe side of their J function. Again - preference.

Strong Functions Do Not Denote Preference

Regardless of which of these function pairs is an individual's most comfortable, and base reasoning method, everyone has all of them at their disposal to a degree of capacity based on that individual. Someone may even have more capacity with a function pair that is not their dominant pair. Take Satya for example. His first step in reasoning is philosophical deduction, but he has amazing logical abilities which he uses to validate his philosophical reasoning. He might have a more effective T than F, but that isn't where his reasoning begins, nor is it the basis of his thought process. He begins, bases, and ends his reasoning with an Fe-centric cognition. This is where his personality as an INFJ comes through, and is the basis for the MBTI, which is designed around the notion that we have cognitive preferences. Capacity and function with cognitive processes are almost irrelevent to personality.

Preferences Do Not Denote Individuals

The biggest misconception is that the MBTI types are in any way indicative of an individual's personality, preferences, or other functions in life. Because of the way that the J function works, as a whole entity, but with a lean in one direction (even if that lean is toward balance), the only inference that can be derived is how and why a person comes to the conclusions that they come to. Fe dominants are going to base their thinking in F and e. They'll dip into T and i when detailing. They'll apply T to their F and e. They'll apply F to their T and i. But, they'll lean toward Fe modes of thinking. That's all. One Fe person might feel very passionate about football and yell at their television, while another feels strongly about the peace and tranquility that is violated. Another Fe person might feel passionate about politics or an election, while another feels that politics are a blight on society and should be removed. Another Fe person might feel a great urge to help the homeless, while yet another sees them as a problem and feels a great urge to run them out of town. What they all share is simply a philosophical reasoning applied to the world around them, whatever it is that they are concerned with.
 
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I would say Fe connects value systems and Fi evaluates value systems, but I'm no Von.

:m037: Aw, shucks.


I would say that Fe relates value systems, while Fi analyzes them. I like these quotes:

Fe: "Every need relates a person to part of the socially shared world, at a specific time and place."

Fi: "A need exists entirely within the person relative to the world around them at that time and place."
 
Von Hase, may I ask you what books have you read on this subject? If J is one whole entity, does that mean someone with J in their type code is going to rate high on all the J functions (or elements) in a functions test?
 
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I just want to work something out in my head. INFJ's start with Ni, and INFP's start with Fi, by that you would think that their J's and P's are in the wrong place. But if you go to the next functions, Fe, and Ne respectivly. Then you have them in the right place.

So the way I see it, the first extroverted function that appears (first or second), is what denotes the J or P prefrence. That would explain why I have always thought that Ni was way more "judging" then Fi (I sort of came to this conclusion by watching myself, and others), when infact it is because they are expressed more often then not by Fe and Ne resecvly. I still sort of feel Ni is more judging, but I think it is just because I am refrencing myself.
 
Von Hase, may I ask you what books have you read on this subject?

I have a background in psychology, worked as a counselor for a number of years, and have done a lot of independent study on the subjects pertaining to the MBTI. Most of what I present are my own opinions based on my interpretation of all the data I've gathered and experiences I've encountered. I do not claim any of my opinions as scientific fact, though I use verbiage that is very direct and may imply such. I am after all an Fe dominant thinker, and feel that my opinions are likely correct at the moment I am typing them.

If J is one whole entity, does that mean someone with J in their type code is going to rate high on all the J functions (or elements) in a functions test?

These are unrelated.

The J preference on the Myers Briggs test is only an indication toward extroverted F or T preference (Fe or Te). It is no indication of J function capacity, as the MBTI is not designed to measure capacity, only preference. For example, an ISTP is Ti dominant. INFP is Fi dominant. Their J functions have higher preference than their P functions. The opposite is true. An INFJ has Fe, as indicated by the J preference, but it is secondary. None of these types are identified by an instrument that measures capacity in the J functions, only preference. Any individual's J function capacity could exceed or be exceeded by any other's.

For overall J function capacity, I would suggest an official IQ test. It will not be a perfectly accurate assessment, but it measures a surprising number of variables across the F and T ranges.
 
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I have a background in psychology, worked as a counselor for a number of years, and have done a lot of independent study on the subjects pertaining to the MBTI. Most of what I present are my own opinions based on my interpretation of all the data I've gathered and experiences I've encountered. I do not claim any of my opinions as scientific fact, though I use verbiage that is very direct and may imply such. I am after all an Fe dominant thinker, and feel that my opinions are likely correct at the moment I am typing them.
But in essence, you are a demi-god here and we sacrifice virgin cantaloupes in your honour to receive any wisdom you may see fit to bestow.:D
:m178::m178::m178::m178::m178::m178:
 
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