meat-heavy diets

People force their kids to brush their teeth every day, go to school every day, participate on sports and other activities outside of school every day, go to church every week, do their homework every night, etc. etc. etc. Your rationalization holds little weigh, especially since there would be virtually no one teaching them about the nature of their food.

How many schools take field trips to slaughter houses? How many slaughterhouses exist on street corners in cities? How many factory farms are open to public tours? The 4H club? Raise a prize winning pig and then send it off to be slaughtered somewhere else by someone else without ever discussing or studying ethology or behavior.

The parents need to do this education because there won't be anyone else there to do it for them. The USDA gets lobbied by the Egg, Poultry, Meat and Dairy industries while their schools get bulk discounts on all of those food items and free charts showing them how "healthy" all of that is.

We're not talking about math or science here; this is pure politics. And like every good PR campaign, they only want people to hear their one side. The parents are the ones who should be there to dissect the information and make sure their kids get the full story and a complete education.
 
very disappointed to read posts and find out what this thread is really about.
 
I prefer to eat more vegis, but I keep forgetting to add it to me ISTJ robot schedule so I always buy meat instead. Whoops!
 
I think I've only had like three meals with meat in the this past month. It's kind of funny, actually, because I haven't even tried to go vegetarian or anything, I'm just poor.

Let's see...

I had a chicken burrito yesterday
I ate a peperoni pizza a couple of times
When I went home I had chili and maybe something else

But, i had the most amazing fillet Mignon before I went to school so that should hold me off for a while.

One question, when the zombie apocalypse happens how are y'all going to eat enough?
 
if i had children, they would definitely be eating meat. i would be preparing them about 5 meat based meals a week. i wouldn't be forming expectations of them to choose vegetarianism at a young age because i don't think it's very nurturing or even very realistic to expect children to make complex ethical decisions. i think it is a bit stifling and i want my kids to be free to develop to be the best that they can be, rather than what i have decided is the best that i can be. i would be interested in my children developing a conscience about things in general. i'm sure there would be many opportunities to talk to them about my opinions on eating animals as they grew older and more capable of committing to these sorts of decisions on their own terms. maybe my kids would decide that they had other priorities for contributing to the world than what i have decided is important for me. i think that is the main thing, that they are able to distinguish "right" from "wrong", regardless of what they indicate as their own personal preferences and priorities in these matters. maybe they would be more interested in counseling sex workers or putting homeless people into housing - sorts of things which i recognise there is no way i could ever do.

growing up in my house, eating vegetables never had a lot of drama attached to it. we were served the same foods as our parents ate and we were expected to appreciate the meals that had been prepared for us and to eat what was on our plates. there were some vegetables that my brother and i both had aversions to (for me it was corn) but as long as we ate most of what was on our plate that was ok. through my adolescence my mother got me interested in trying different foods by repeatedly putting them on my plate even if i hated them with the expectation that i would at least try them, now i love things like ground pepper and coriander which i previously hated. another thing my parents did was to enjoy varieties of different vegetables prepared in exotic sorts of ways around us. my mother developed an interest in mediterranean type prepared vegetables and there was just such a variety of things to try and everything looked so interesting, and all the adults seemed to like it. it seemed sophisticated and when i saw it being enjoyed that way i was curious to try it and discover what was interesting about it. but then - some kids just might hate vegetables. i have heard that the way humans taste things develops through childhood. i'm not sure how i would handle kids who just flat out refused to eat vegetables. it is an interesting question.
 
Lol, when I was like 4 and refused to eat broccoli on my plate, my parents locked me in the pitch black garage alone until I screamed and agreed to eat it. But now I love broccoli.
 
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 632"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Ground beef patty x 2[/TD]
[TD]Portabella x 3[/TD]
[TD]Corn on cob[/TD]
[TD]Yam[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Calories[/TD]
[TD]472[/TD]
[TD]126[/TD]
[TD]123[/TD]
[TD]158[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fat[/TD]
[TD]32g[/TD]
[TD]3g[/TD]
[TD]1g[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Saturated Fat[/TD]
[TD]12g[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tans fat[/TD]
[TD]2g[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cholesterol[/TD]
[TD]152mg[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sodium[/TD]
[TD]132mg[/TD]
[TD]36mg[/TD]
[TD]6mg[/TD]
[TD]11mg[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Carbohydrates[/TD]
[TD]0g[/TD]
[TD]18g[/TD]
[TD]29g[/TD]
[TD]37g[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fiber[/TD]
[TD]0g[/TD]
[TD]9g[/TD]
[TD]3g[/TD]
[TD]5g[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Protein[/TD]
[TD]22g[/TD]
[TD]15g[/TD]
[TD]4g[/TD]
[TD]2g[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



I drew this spreadsheet up after tonight's dinner. It's not perfect, but it comes close. The left column represents what I would have had on an average BBQ night while I was still an avid meat-eater. The 3 on the right represent what I have now, which is typical for most meals like this.

Since the nature of vegetables is much lighter than meat, I can easily eat that much more in a sitting - which accounts for 3 foods vs the 1 and the number of each. I also didn't add toppings, buns or condiments for this since that would be nearly the same for each.

I can dispel a few myths right now - my protein intake is just fine. On a hard, physically active, labor intensive day I need up to about 100 grams of protein for my weight and size. On most days, I need just under 70. With this one meal alone I get 21 grams and this is a light protein meal - no beans, lentils, whole grains, other vegetables, tofu, etc. That's 1 gram less than the hamburger patties.

The other myth is iron content - the burger has about 22% of the daily recommended amount of iron (along with 6% for calcium). If I add up the others, I also get 22% for iron as well as good doses of vitamin C, A and calcium.

Calorie wise, the burger has me at 472 while the rest has me at 407 that's a difference of about 1 serving of olive oil... which comes in handy for grilling produce.

Other than the obvious cholesterol and fats look at the sodium difference. Even with more food and the variety, I still don't come close to the same as I would with a hamburger.

Also notice the large "0" next to the fiber in a hamburger...


So, is it easier to eat a couple slabs of beef to get the base levels of some vital nutrients? Sure, but for starters, you're filling yourself up on only that one flavor combination instead of a variety. Secondly, the extra luggage that tags along with the meat causes a lot more problems than the tag-alongs that come with the vegetables - cholesterol, sodium and fats vs. fiber, carbohydrates and vitamins.

Even if you mixed it up and say, had 1 patty and everything else but the portabellas, you'd then go over 500 calories, while still getting the fats, cholesterol and sodium.
 
relephant

310206_10150491273909992_516194991_11255212_1523165013_n.jpg
 
I feel along the same lines as [MENTION=751]Peppermint[/MENTION] ...

One of my good friends, R, from Iran is a vegetarian - for many reasons - including moral.
When I've spent weekends with them, I noticed her daughter happily munching down very tasty vegetarian meals.
Since her daughter has been brought up with eating only those foods, I imagine her tastes will naturally lead her towards appreciating and eating primarily vegetarian when she becomes an adult. R cooks a lot of soy and legume dishes that are very scrumptious.

R has her PhD in philosophy, is a college professor, presents every year at the Human Trafficking event in south tx, as is very aware of the ability for humans to perpetrate horrible acts upon sentient beings.

I don't think she'd ever consider exposing her daughter to a slaughterhouse while she was a child - even a teenager. I imagine it will not be necessary in the long run. Sure, her daughter may want to experiment during her rebellious teenage years. But that should be expected. In the end, she will most likely gravitate back to what she knew and loved as a child, which is vegetarian.

The thing is, Lerxst, showing your children the violence done to animals does something to their brain and hearts. Exposing children to violence period - can chronically alter neurons and cell receptors in the brain.

One should be careful what children are exposed to. They should be nurtured, protected, and loved.

If you have children, I don't think you'll have to worry about them going all "meat and potatoes" on you, anyway.
Look at the delicious food you prepare! How could anyone want a hamburger from jack when there's food like yours to eat?

Be well.
 
I have one prominent thought to add to this discussion.

I respect you don't eat meat. Please respect that I do.
 
Lerxst said:
People force their kids to brush their teeth every day, go to school every day, participate on sports and other activities outside of school every day, go to church every week, do their homework every night, etc. etc. etc. Your rationalization holds little weigh, especially since there would be virtually no one teaching them about the nature of their food.

How many schools take field trips to slaughter houses? How many slaughterhouses exist on street corners in cities? How many factory farms are open to public tours? The 4H club? Raise a prize winning pig and then send it off to be slaughtered somewhere else by someone else without ever discussing or studying ethology or behavior.

The parents need to do this education because there won't be anyone else there to do it for them. The USDA gets lobbied by the Egg, Poultry, Meat and Dairy industries while their schools get bulk discounts on all of those food items and free charts showing them how "healthy" all of that is.

We're not talking about math or science here; this is pure politics. And like every good PR campaign, they only want people to hear their one side. The parents are the ones who should be there to dissect the information and make sure their kids get the full story and a complete education.
Click to expand...


I think this is actually pure genetics. Check out our canines and
our evolution, yeah?
 
Bird said:
I think this is actually pure genetics. Check out our canines and
our evolution, yeah?
Click to expand...

Don't. Whatever that urge you have to sit there and argue this with me is, just ignore it. One thing vegans have plenty of experience doing that most people can live their lives without ever doing, is defending our food choices. You think we go around and look for them on purpose? You go to a restaurant and try ordering XYZ and "hold the cheese or sour cream" and see how long it takes for someone to comment.

I've had this debate way too often with way too many people who are better informed and more knowledgeable then most people you'll meat outside of the "animal" or "food" worlds. Every single argument you're probably prepared to make, I can guarantee I have already researched to death. I've heard all of them and none of them have ever disproved the research, science or history on the subject. I'm sick of the topic.

I haven't argued much more that the politics behind this so far and I've tried to steer clear of that "other side" you're heading towards. I'd still like to be on speaking terms with most of the people on this forum by the end of the day, so I'm begging you to resist that urge...
 
Lerxst said:
Don't. Whatever that urge you have to sit there and argue this with me is, just ignore it. One thing vegans have plenty of experience doing that most people can live their lives without ever doing, is defending our food choices. You think we go around and look for them on purpose? You go to a restaurant and try ordering XYZ and "hold the cheese or sour cream" and see how long it takes for someone to comment.

I've had this debate way too often with way too many people who are better informed and more knowledgeable then most people you'll meat outside of the "animal" or "food" worlds. Every single argument you're probably prepared to make, I can guarantee I have already researched to death. I've heard all of them and none of them have ever disproved the research, science or history on the subject. I'm sick of the topic.

I haven't argued much more that the politics behind this so far and I've tried to steer clear of that "other side" you're heading towards. I'd still like to be on speaking terms with most of the people on this forum by the end of the day, so I'm begging you to resist that urge...
Click to expand...

I can respect that, and I often agree with your and enjoy your input. But the vegan / Vegetarian group here has painted people who eat meat as less informed or flat out incompetent. As I said I respect others food choices but I'm still going to eat animal products.

I've seen animals butchered or dressed whatever your prefer. I've watched many many slaughter house videos. I've even eaten vegetarian for short periods (not for me but I can respect it).

I understand that I'm taking on the death of another creature by eating meat. I'm not happy about and I don't take any joy in the death of an animal or plant that I eat to live. I don't think animals are worthless nor do I feel cruelty is acceptable.

What I'm trying to get at is you can be informed and still choice to eat a omnivorous diet.

I also want to say sadly anyone with a different diet is often ridiculed that includes vegan, variegation, no starch / grain diets ecte I"m sorry to hear your having trouble. But please remember not everyone who disagrees is doing so to disrespect your or anyone's choices.
 
Personally, I'm hoping to learn how to shech (kosher butchering) because I hate how animals are treated on mega farms, and so I want to raise my own chickens. I don't think meat is bad for us, but I think all the hormones and antibiotics we add ARE. I'm a hard core OMNIvore, protein of various sources is going to be about 40% of my caloric intake. I believe the diet I am on is the one my body has evolved for.

If someone else wants to be a vegetarian, I'm fine with it. I just want you to be smart about it. Some vegetarians are very savvy about nutrition and know how to get in all eight essential amino acids etc., other vegetarians are 16 year old girls that just eat salads and don't understand why they are malnourished. When I was in my thirties, and already had developed metabolic disorder, I switched to vegetarianism, and simply by eating more simple carbs (breads, pastas, rice) I slipped over into diabetes. So please, please be a smart vegetarian!
 
GracieRuth said:
Personally, I'm hoping to learn how to shech (kosher butchering) because I hate how animals are treated on mega farms, and so I want to raise my own chickens. I don't think meat is bad for us, but I think all the hormones and antibiotics we add ARE. I'm a hard core OMNIvore, protein of various sources is going to be about 40% of my caloric intake. I believe the diet I am on is the one my body has evolved for.

If someone else wants to be a vegetarian, I'm fine with it. I just want you to be smart about it. Some vegetarians are very savvy about nutrition and know how to get in all eight essential amino acids etc., other vegetarians are 16 year old girls that just eat salads and don't understand why they are malnourished. When I was in my thirties, and already had developed metabolic disorder, I switched to vegetarianism, and simply by eating more simple carbs (breads, pastas, rice) I slipped over into diabetes. So please, please be a smart vegetarian!
Click to expand...

Agreed when possible organic or free range is always better. I've had grass feed beef and its always better. I also argue that that ties into better treatment for animals as well.
 
In all honesty I think in america we should probably be eating more deer, they are vastly over populated and likely to get killed by a car anyway (at least in my neck of the woods), I do not agree with the way in which many animals are killed for food but I do eat meat, to me I find it far too delicious to give up. I also read somewhere (though unfortunately I can't cite it now) that most people that eat vegetarian don't even like the taste of meat in the first place regardless of any ethical concerns which they may or may not have about it. (Feel free to correct me if you are a vegetarian but love the taste of meat). Personally I would like it better if we treated meat in the same way as the native americans did and looked more at meat as a necessary sacrifice in a respectful sort of way. Thanking the animal for providing us with sustenance, etc.

on a somewhat humorous side note this thread reminded me of this:

[video=youtube;GKTsWjbjQ8E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKTsWjbjQ8E[/video]
 
vdwxmskkntz said:
I do not agree with the way in which many animals are killed for food but I do eat meat, to me I find it far too delicious to give up. I also read somewhere (though unfortunately I can't cite it now) that most people that eat vegetarian don't even like the taste of meat in the first place regardless of any ethical concerns which they may or may not have about it.
Click to expand...

i think that what you are saying about vegetarians is just exactly the same as if i were to say "most people who eat meat do so because they find it far too delicious to give up, regardless of any ethical concerns they may or may not have about it." actually, i will venture to remark that my theory is far more accurate than the theory about vegetarians. and what do you think about that?

from an intellectual point of view, regardless of the fact that you have not provided a citation, i think it would be pretty difficult to conduct such a study that failed to disprove this hypothesis. it would need to involve a very large scale selection of pre-vegetarian type people somehow figuring out whether or not they liked the taste of meat and then following up later to determine whether or not they had become vegetarians. i think that causality would also be difficult to determine. i am willing to admit the possibility, but in any case i have never heard of such a study being conducted and this information appears to be propaganda or at best radical conjecture, but please let me know if you are able to produce a link.

and although i cannot speak for most vegetarians, who may or may not give up meat for reasons relating to its flavour, allow me to speak for myself. i was raised in a meat eating household and i ate meat for most of my life. i ate different types of meat from different parts of different animals. i was not afraid to try offal, as many people who eat meat appear to be. i ate brains and internal organs and all types of seafood and raw meats. i dined on anything that was put in front of me and almost always found it to my liking (i didn't like sea urchin or kidney very much). i preferred fine sashimi to both ice cream and mdma.

having said that, i can only restate what i previously wrote. realising that animals have complex emotional lives, and discovering the variety of flavour and texture in the vegetable world, which i believe is undeniably far more various than at least the bland and featureless cow/pig/chicken diets which are typically pursued with such insatiable desire by the vast majority of meat eating people, turned me off meat. after not eating it with any frequency at all for some time, i lost any craving for it, and realised that its flavour is no more interesting to me than perhaps scorched fatty flesh can ever possibly be. but that of course is entirely subjective.
 
i feel very upset by the possibility that some of the posts i have made might have been overlooked, and i am afraid that some judgment might be expressed in a thread which was intended specifically to avoid judgment. please recognise that we are all flawed individuals and none of us are able to be perfect. we all have different ways of contributing to one another's lives as human beings and to the planet we live on, especially here in this forum when so many of us are oriented in these directions this is the case and that we each may have special priorities for how we go about this. what one person has the energy or inclination for may not be the same as what another person does, whether in relation to meat and animal products or some other issue. in a formal way it is accepted that morality is totally destabilised and it is very difficult to pin down any one thing or another as being black or white - we are all highly educated and we all realise this. and the best that we can hope for is that all of us are able to work together in our different ways in doing what we can to make this world as good as it can be. there is simply no point fighting over this matter.

i am willing to defend my decision to vegetarianism but i see zero reason why i should have to. that is not why i made this thread.

i made this thread in order to share my beliefs that perhaps most people eat too much meat and to suggest that people with meat heavy diets might try to enjoy vegetables equally with meat products in a way that would benefit their palates, their health, other animals, and the planet. possibly beyond that to dispel a few myths about the "dangers" of eating vegetables, or the necessity of a meat heavy diet to good health. i think i made this very clear in my opening post. any discussion beyond this sort of adjustment in the food routines of meat heavy eaters is therefore beyond the scope of this topic. i ask that people who may be interested in pursuing a more black and white, less grey perspective on this issue open another thread, for the reason that such a discussion would be entirely off topic from this thread.
 
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