I can relate extremely well to these! It's scary to think how everything would have possibly been without depression, who am I without depression...? Especially if suffered from since early childhood like from since being 10 years old little girl. Fascinating. I feel like sometimes I get those tiny glimpses of my real personality through that darkness...
I feel the same way...
I actually cannot remember a time as a child that I did not have depression.
There are memories of childhood of course...but sometimes I feel as if I have very few - though that's hard to gauge in relation to others since one cannot easily compare.
It's a difficult road to travel.
Just keep going forward, even when you feel like you aren't making much progress...you are.
Sending you lots of love Flower!
:<3white::<3white:
 
I feel the same way...
I actually cannot remember a time as a child that I did not have depression.
There are memories of childhood of course...but sometimes I feel as if I have very few - though that's hard to gauge in relation to others since one cannot easily compare.
It's a difficult road to travel.
Just keep going forward, even when you feel like you aren't making much progress...you are.
Sending you lots of love Flower!
:<3white::<3white:

Aw... I know. :/ Memories are filled with so much haze and not remembering much from childhood.. It's such a hard journey full of sorrow but some light on the way too.

Thank you and lots of love to you too. <3
 
So, I'm going to rant a little bit for just a moment because a small situation is causing me some mild undo angst, even though it's not my circus, not my monkey, lol.

As some of you know, I give talks and lectures from time to time about chronic pain issues and how to cope with them.
Some of that relates to the use of entheogenic/psychedelic substances.
A lady in her 60's who came to a talk of mine a while back has contacted me here and there with general questions about things pertaining to such issues and things.
She has been taking mushrooms to combat depression and has seen some moderate success but can't seem to get over the hump so to speak.
From talking with her it's very clear to me that she is not approaching it in the proper manner.
When using such things for treatment one must be very clear in their "set" and "setting".
"Setting" is taking such things in a place that will not cause confusion, fear, anxiety, etc.
A comfortable place, preferably with someone else who knows what to expect as well, who can help steer the person back into a good mindspace if they start to drift too far into negative areas.
"Set" refers to your intentions - what is it you wish to address?
What do you wish help with?
What do you want and not want from the experience?
What is your end goal?
Etc, etc.
They are both very important to helping someone gain the most from the experience that they can.
It's very different to take such substances at a rave or concert compared to a meditative space (physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually).
Anyhow...
She keeps coming to me asking me to suggest stronger types of mushrooms, etc.
I keep trying to tell her that it has very little to do with that, but she seems to ignore this and seems very insistent that it must be the type she has...sigh.
I've tried to explain to her that it's more to do with the dosage and her intentions than the potency of this or that strain.
We've talked about how she is setting her intentions and I can see that she is not setting them properly.
She describes wanting to be rid of her depression and this is her main focus, her main intention.
The thing about that though is this - your ego wants to fix things.
It wants to find a solution to your problems.
It does not care if it's the right way explained to it, it wants to fix, fix, fix.
There is nothing wrong with that, it is part of how we survive and grow as we age and learn.
One of the positive aspects of such substances is a quieting of the ego-voice...this however can vary from person to person based on how long they've been in that state of mind, how much self-work has been done before hand, how self-centered a person is (not always in the negative way, but a focusing on the self).
Depression makes a person very self-centered...this is part of why this treatment is successful where others have failed, but you need to have proper guidance if you are trying to treat yourself.
She explains that she has wonderful breakthroughs during the trips themselves, but very soon after finds herself back to a low-level of constant depression.
I've told her that this is normal and that for many it can take multiple times to reach a level where a person feels that they have a handle on the depression instead of the other way around.
She is just too impatient!!
She still wants a quick fix and I've explained to her that this is the ego talking, that she needs to come to that realization and surrender to the experience with no expectations of what it will entail.
That is why you set the intentions ahead of time....you spend weeks and days leading up to it with mindful meditations and focus of those intentions during that time - but during the experience you cannot keep pushing those intentions into the trip as that is again the ego trying to interfere, not wanting to relinquish control, and still trying to force itself as the one doing the "fixing".
After you are done, you again, reaffirm your intentions and integrate what you experienced during your trip, hopefully gaining some new perspectives and insight.
She doesn't like this suggestion...and it's very fucking irritating to me to be perfectly honest that someone would ask for my help, then not listen to my advice at all or even bother to try it in this way.
Again - quick fix.
I understand she is in pain...and I feel that deeply from her, I wish to help her but am just about to break off ties with her at this point in time.
I don't want to leave her alone and by herself though feeling like no one can do anything.
So I told her if she didn't want to continue to work with the mushrooms by herself and felt like it wasn't getting her the results fast enough for her taste she can talk to a colleague of mine who does this for a living.
I referred her to a professional therapist I know well who works with such substances in her counseling - she sometimes sends me clients who have chronic pain issues so I can counsel them about the pain issue side of things from someone suffering from similar issues.
I got a message this morning that they skyped online and she ended up being very rude to my colleague after she told this gal her pricing scale.
As if she should just do it all free of charge?
The lady wrote me a message too saying that she was too expensive and she didn't feel that her qualifications justified her prices.
Ugh!
Fuck off then.
I've been trying to help her - with no monetary gain mind you for myself because I understand what a shitty place a person can be in when depressed/anxious - and I'm sure some of it is a defense mechanism to protect herself from more pain...I get that.
But dammit woman what the hell else do you want?
I went through it all with her very carefully - talking about forcing her intentions instead of allowing them to be realized.
But she still cannot see what she is doing wrong no matter how I try to word it or explain it.
It sucks because she is getting older now and I don't know if she has (or can have) the right mindset to even properly begin?
I dislike cutting people out, especially those who are hurting and seeking help, but it's causing my blood pressure to rise, lol.
She is definitely testing my patience!
I know I'm under NO obligation to continue to offer help, I don't need anyones' permission to slam the door...I just hate to do that to someone while they are down. :(
I've yet to reply to her latest message about her dissatisfaction with my friend...right now I'm kind of pissed off at her to be honest.
It's rude to me as well as her when someone behaves this way.
She may very well have some narcissistic tendencies - I'm sure some narcissists suffer from depression too, lol.
Then again, it may be her depression/anxiety/panic talking...trying desperately to find a way out of her nightmare.

Trying to make sure I maintain my distance...it seems she's lashing out somewhat.
*Sigh*...she's a hair-width away from me saying bye-bye forever. :neutral:
I will not get wrapped up by anyone trying to misuse others or myself no matter how much they hurt.
Normally I am more than happy to help anyone with such situations and feelings, but it must be reciprocal.

Any thoughts or insights?
I know many of you don't deal with such substances, but this has more to do with the person and her distress I feel.

Love to you all!
:<3white::<3white::<3white:
 
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Wow...what a scripture!
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Any thoughts or insights?
I know many of you don't deal with such substances, but this has more to do with the person and her distress I feel.

Love to you all!
:3white::3white::3white:
I think this is something that happens all too often to some older folk, their personality starts to petrify in their 50s and 60s, and they can't easily change or react flexibly. It's the mental equivalent of old folks a bit later on in life who won't take any exercise and they end up just sitting around decaying all day. What you are offering, let's be honest, involves a personality change because the problem has bound itself to someone's identity and only by unbinding it can they gain the benefits you are offering - they need to stop identifying with the pain and clinging to it. This lady wants a cure, but won't let go of any part of herself - she may be incapable of conceiving that such a thing is even possible.

Another angle. If I understand your approach, the drug is not a cure in itself, but is there to facilitate the essential change to someone's inner state - for a few people it's quite possible that they can follow your path using meditation alone, or other ways of altering their consciousness, yet they are following exactly the same treatment. The trouble is that the introspective process can sound a bit mystical, and may put off extraverted sensors or thinkers - add this to the stupid expectation led by the pharmas that a pill can be found to cure anything without effort from the patient and again you have silly expectations.

Much love my friend

:<3green:
 
I think this is something that happens all too often to some older folk, their personality starts to petrify in their 50s and 60s, and they can't easily change or react flexibly. It's the mental equivalent of old folks a bit later on in life who won't take any exercise and they end up just sitting around decaying all day. What you are offering, let's be honest, involves a personality change because the problem has bound itself to someone's identity and only by unbinding it can they gain the benefits you are offering - they need to stop identifying with the pain and clinging to it. This lady wants a cure, but won't let go of any part of herself - she may be incapable of conceiving that such a thing is even possible.

Another angle. If I understand your approach, the drug is not a cure in itself, but is there to facilitate the essential change to someone's inner state - for a few people it's quite possible that they can follow your path using meditation alone, or other ways of altering their consciousness, yet they are following exactly the same treatment. The trouble is that the introspective process can sound a bit mystical, and may put off extraverted sensors or thinkers - add this to the stupid expectation led by the pharmas that a pill can be found to cure anything without effort from the patient and again you have silly expectations.

Much love my friend

:<3green:

Yes, I can see that.
I'll have one more talk to her tomorrow maybe, lol.
But yes, she seems very rigid...I'm actually not entirely sure she is taking enough to have the proper breakthrough that she thinks she is having either.
That ego is a sneaky SOB.
And yes you are correct - it is not a magic pill (despite the name haha) but rather a way of facilitating the neuroplasticity required to realize and make changes needed.
A way to break someone out of the thought loops that hold them prisoner.
I guess some people have been in prison for so long that getting out is frightening for them.
Thanks my friend!
:<3white:
 
Hi @Skarekrow

That is a lot of person to handle.
It sounds like she is taking you for granted.
It isn't clear to me whether she wants help or attention, though she claims to want help.
When dealing with people who behave this way and want attention, I typically wean them off me by giving them less and less of my time and sincerity until they find someone else who will give them attention. This, unfortunately, includes people who genuinely need help, but there is a certain attitude where they make an identity about being unwell and don't actually want to be well. (I just want to add that I've never done this to a friend, but with acquaintances I'm only connected to via this cord of help/need.)

If she genuinely wants to improve perhaps you could remind her once more that she doesn't listen and you cannot help her if she doesn't take advice (and treat people respectfully, such as your colleague). Let her know you've given her all the advice you can and that she is welcome to approach you again after she tries your suggestions and experiences the results. This gives the possibility that you'll be there for her at a later date when she tried to improve.
 
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Hi @Skarekrow

That is a lot of person to handle.
It sounds like she is taking you for granted.
It isn't clear to me whether she wants help or attention, though she claims to want help.
When dealing with people who behave this way and want attention, I typically wean them off me by giving them less and less of my time and sincerity until they find someone else who will give them attention. This, unfortunately, includes people who genuinely need help, but there is a certain attitude where they make an identity about being unwell and don't actually want to be well. (I just want to add that I've never done this to a friend, but with acquaintances I'm only connected to via this cord of help/need.)

If she genuinely wants to improve perhaps you could remind her once more that she doesn't listen and you cannot help her if she doesn't take advice (and treat people respectfully, such as your colleague). Let her know you've given her all the advice you can and that she is welcome to approach you again after she tries your suggestions and experiences the results. This leaves gives the possibility that you'll be there for her at a later date when she tried to improve.

Thank you for your input and suggestions!
I'm feeling better about it all now, lol.
It really chapped my ass earlier after I found out how rude she had acted.
But then again, I really don't know all the details of her and her situation, so it's not fully fair to judge her on the limited bits I know.
But yes, I agree with you that I need to keep my distance.
You can lead a horse to water...

I mean, I can get her some really powerful ass stuff like she wants, but that would be irresponsible of me no matter how much she thinks she needs something like that.
Really you only need to take more of the other types to match the more powerful ones - and like I mentioned, I'm not really sure she's had a full breakthrough with the mushrooms yet.
She's only taken 2grams at a time of your run of the mill type - which are good mushrooms don't get me wrong - but 2grams is what I would give someone as a starter dose of the more powerful types.
Like anything you can deal in self-deception if you are not careful...thinking you had some sort of breakthrough, when in fact you have not silenced the ego at all.
This can end up convincing the person that they are doing more than what they really are mentally.
It takes a certain amount to break that barrier of the self.
To feel uncertain about where YOU end and everything else begins is a good starting place for knowing you have reached the correct spot.
Some make the claim that we should give such substances to folks like Trump - that it would make them more compassionate or some BS.
It would not.
It would most likely reinforce his ego to an even greater degree than it is now.
That is why the prior self-work is so important.
"L" just doesn't seem like she wants to do that work at all.
I feel that she's gotten her expectations about the mushrooms twisted around as a magic pill that will instantly fix her issues with little to no effort needed by her.
So yes, I will reiterate what I have told her in the most easy to understand way I can try to explain it.
But you are correct about involving myself further - the resources are out there, if she doesn't like what I have to tell her, that's that.
There are many places online where she can find all sorts of ways to get to the headspace she is searching for.
If she isn't combining the use with some deep self-exploration or a willingness to even try - then there is no more point for me to be involved.
I'm not sure what she expects if she is unwilling to accept what I have to say or suggest?
She probably wants to hear "Yes, just take a bigger dose and do this and you'll be freeeee!"
Though they work for people for whom other treatments have failed, it's not a brain transplant hahaha!
You have to work with what you have...if you are particularly fucked up, then expect it to be more difficult than someone else who has less baggage.
She is from France...IDK if there is any cultural issues at play here that perhaps I am missing?
@Ren ??

Thanks again!
I hope all is going well at the moment?
I'm really enjoying your own thread, thanks for sharing your thoughts and internet finds!
Much love!!
:<3white:
 
Ugh.. that sounds like a big challenge for you, Skare. Kudos that you are working through this.

Could it be that she is running from figuring out why she is restless (quick fix attitude, feeding immediate need) meaning also running from something within?
It sounds a bit that the self-work is skipped and sort of perceived as threatening (does she not feel save (or something else) enough to face it perhaps?), hence she doesn't like the suggestion of the afterwork of reinforcing her set. Or the quarrel with the therapist also looks more like a superficial layer of the actual problem.

But there must be a reason to her depression and pain, right? Might be a mixture of many reasons if she has experienced alot in her age.

Anyhow.. this is just one impression based on your story.


Take good care of yourself!
 
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@Skarekrow – good luck. It is difficult to cut someone who needs help loose.

While reading your explanation I kept my own experiences with mushrooms in mind, and also applied your advice about mushrooms to life in general (sans mushrooms). I don't think I'd ever do mushrooms again, but if I had known you, my experience would have been different.
It's interesting to apply all your advice about doing the work to daily life, too. Even when we are technically "well" these self-work exercises are valuable.

I agree about Trump. There a false security that experiences that would change average people for the better would fix people with serious psychoses. They won't.

Thank you about my blog.
Peace to you.
 
My depression was certainly lifted when I did cocaine. .
well no shit. .(it really did)
in my experience, people want a pill to make their depression and anxiety magically disappear. .When you start to talk about the work of processing the causes, they get frustrated. I'm sorry, but it's hard work to deal with your traumas and life shit that fuels your anxiety and depression. unfortunately, there is no pill to cure depression. it's really all about therapy, and doing internal healing. now of course there are brain chemistry issues, and pain issues. . but dealing with depression requires work on your part, and if you're not willing to do it, then you're stuck with your situation. I've spent alot of my life working with those looking for the magic bean to fix their life. . sorry, there isn't one. .sadly there are amazing results possible from therapy. .
 
Ugh.. that sounds like a big challenge for you, Skare. Kudos that you are working through this.

Could it be that she is running from figuring out why she is restless (quick fix attitude, feeding immediate need) meaning also running from something within?
It sounds a bit that the self-work is skipped and sort of perceived as threatening (does she not feel save (or something else) enough to face it perhaps?), hence she doesn't like the suggestion of the afterwork of reinforcing her set. Or the quarrel with the therapist also looks more like a superficial layer of the actual problem.

But there must be a reason to her depression and pain, right? Might be a mixture of many reasons if she has experienced alot in her age.

Anyhow.. this is just one impression based on your story.


Take good care of yourself!

@Skarekrow – good luck. It is difficult to cut someone who needs help loose.

While reading your explanation I kept my own experiences with mushrooms in mind, and also applied your advice about mushrooms to life in general (sans mushrooms). I don't think I'd ever do mushrooms again, but if I had known you, my experience would have been different.
It's interesting to apply all your advice about doing the work to daily life, too. Even when we are technically "well" these self-work exercises are valuable.

I agree about Trump. There a false security that experiences that would change average people for the better would fix people with serious psychoses. They won't.

Thank you about my blog.
Peace to you.

My depression was certainly lifted when I did cocaine. .
well no shit. .(it really did)
in my experience, people want a pill to make their depression and anxiety magically disappear. .When you start to talk about the work of processing the causes, they get frustrated. I'm sorry, but it's hard work to deal with your traumas and life shit that fuels your anxiety and depression. unfortunately, there is no pill to cure depression. it's really all about therapy, and doing internal healing. now of course there are brain chemistry issues, and pain issues. . but dealing with depression requires work on your part, and if you're not willing to do it, then you're stuck with your situation. I've spent alot of my life working with those looking for the magic bean to fix their life. . sorry, there isn't one. .sadly there are amazing results possible from therapy. .


Thanks everyone for your solid and thoughtful advice!
I talked to her for some time and made my position very clear.
I sent her a copy of the last lecture I did and she can read all about it, lol.
haha

So, I guess $750 is too steep of a price for her to have a professional therapist work one on one with her in an all-day intense session.
Here I was thinking she must have been charging a couple thousand or something.
It is a bit pricy, but you are not doing normal therapy.
And how much do head-shrinkers charge per hour to the insurance?
At least $100 an hour...that's probably on the low side.
idk
lol
Anyway...I just had a long talk with her and made myself and my position very very clear.
She was trying to hint at me babysitting her but I caught wind first and preemptively said I'm in no position right now to babysit anyone like that, sorry.
I think she got the hint.

Yes - though they are referred to as "magic" mushrooms - they are only a facilitator to help one break out of negative rumination and quiet the ego-voice telling you how much you suck, and how much you should think about this thing 10 years ago you fucked up, etc.
It is certainly not a state to remain in and still be a functional person in everyday life - it is 6-8 hours of having greater access to your subconscious without the ego-voice trying to direct everything and define who you are.
They have shown some truly lasting results, which is nice that you don't have to take a pill every day, but again - it all depends on how much the person works to get those results.
You get out of it what you put in.
Cocaine!!
lol
My heart would probably beat out of my chest.
I don't even like to drink caffeine anymore! :dizzy:
But yes, I'm sure it would help my chronic pain and make me feel invincible!!
The downside can't justify the high though.
Freud certainly enjoyed it I hear, lol.
That is one thing I can appreciate about psilocybin is the lack of physiologic effects on the body.
You cannot overdose on the normal varieties...you would just be over the moon and barfing probably though...not super enjoyable.
Yes, she IS looking for a quick fix and I did my best today to explain that isn't the case to her.
I think it got through that thick skull she seems to have!
The work will ultimately be done by you and no one else.
It is you who has to learn acceptance.
It is you who has to learn to be more mindful of your emotional triggers both obvious and those that are now a wired-in response with no logical thought process or reasoning changing their arrival or volume.
It is you who must be willing to see things from another perspective.
To want to break out of the rumination, etc.
This involves lots of frankly, very well known ways of doing such things - meditation, movement, music, affirmations, self-exploration, education, prayer, etc.
Psilocybin hyper-connects regions of the brain to one another, bypassing the default mode network (DMN) - it is the DMN that is overactive in those with depression, anxiety, fear, neuroticism, PTSD.
fMRI imaging has shown how the blood flow to the region is reduced, calming the area, while the rest of the brain can communicate without passing through the dirtied foggy filter of the overactive DMN.
Over time physiologic changes to regions of the brain take place and it becomes much harder to bypass the erroneous signals.
All those things such as meditation calm this region as well...they have shown that people who practice such positive activities can and DO actually change their brain structures back to a more normal and better functioning state.
This is of course difficult when one has a chronic condition always sending them brain signals working against what you are trying to do.
It takes constant attention and constant dedication to keep things running smoothly and in a positive manner.
There is NO quick fix...mushrooms can help put someone in a state of mind that is more dynamic with greater brain entropy, allowing someone to gain perspectives that already exist within a person but for whatever reason cannot be implemented without the DMN butting in.
(This is the seat of the ego too btw, lol)
The upside is not having to take medication daily with so many negative side-effects.
It is not appropriate for all though, and I do not advocate it for all in the slightest.

I think I can put this BS to rest now. :tongueout:

Very clear lines in the sand have been drawn with "L", and I don't think she will be giving me any more issues. :blush:

Once again, thank you all so much...I know that this is kind of off into things that you don't normally deal with of maybe even care much about, so I appreciate the time you all took to exercise your beautiful minds and offer you insights and ideas/solutions.
May you are see your empathy and compassion return tenfold!
Have a wonderful and peaceful afternoon.
( You too @John K )
:<3white::<3white::<3white::<3white::<3white:
 
But she still cannot see what she is doing wrong no matter how I try to word it or explain it.
Oh... I recognize this game. Yep. People will use you as their distraction from doing their work.

Walk away from this with a calm mind and guiltless heart. We could go in to all the why's...but ultimately they do not matter. What matters is neither of you can speak the same language. Neither of you are resonating within the same frequencies.
Therefore you can turn your self inside out to try to assist this woman but your words will sound like chaotic noise to her because you're both out of tune with each other.
Tell her that you have nothing further to offer her and you wish her success with moving out of depression.

Then give your self compassion for trying to rescue another one from their pain but not succeeding.
Remember: It's not your job to rescue others. You give them some tools to choose from then you let go of any outcomes or expectations you might hold within you. Give love and kindness to the wounded you.
Muah! The world is sooooooo lucky to have you in it.
 
Very clear lines in the sand have been drawn with "L", and I don't think she will be giving me any more issues. :blush:

Once again, thank you all so much...I know that this is kind of off into things that you don't normally deal with of maybe even care much about, so I appreciate the time you all took to exercise your beautiful minds and offer you insights and ideas/solutions.
May you are see your empathy and compassion return tenfold!
Have a wonderful and peaceful afternoon.

I hope this is resolved and I frankly enjoy this kind of sharing of stories, and sharing experiences. there are so many wonderful therapies available to work with anxieties and depression. But again, it's work, not taking a pill. I have worked with so many that resented the notion of working for their inner peace, they just want it handed to them. That was certainly a thing when working with eating disordered clients. There were so many times that clients fought us, and argued with treatment. .but when they did the work, the changes began, it's just so hard to get some to see that
 
Oh... I recognize this game. Yep. People will use you as their distraction from doing their work.

Walk away from this with a calm mind and guiltless heart. We could go in to all the why's...but ultimately they do not matter. What matters is neither of you can speak the same language. Neither of you are resonating within the same frequencies.
Therefore you can turn your self inside out to try to assist this woman but your words will sound like chaotic noise to her because you're both out of tune with each other.
Tell her that you have nothing further to offer her and you wish her success with moving out of depression.

Then give your self compassion for trying to rescue another one from their pain but not succeeding.
Remember: It's not your job to rescue others. You give them some tools to choose from then you let go of any outcomes or expectations you might hold within you. Give love and kindness to the wounded you.
Muah! The world is sooooooo lucky to have you in it.

Thank you Kgal!!
Yes, today I made it very clear to her what my limits are and what I am willing to do and not do.
I will offer her advice should she ask for technical reasons, but other than that, she is on her own.
I have given her the tools she needs to move in the right direction - it's up to her now if she wants to pursue that or wallow in self-pity.
You are most kind and your advice is basically what has/is transpiring.

I don't feel guilty about it either...I feel sorry for her that she is in pain and suffering, but I will not take that on to myself - not a chance.
She is oriented in the right direction to make significant change, but it is up to her.

Ah shucks!
I feel the same way about you!
The world is a much brighter and loving place with your light shining through!
:<3white::<3white::<3white:
 
I hope this is resolved and I frankly enjoy this kind of sharing of stories, and sharing experiences. there are so many wonderful therapies available to work with anxieties and depression. But again, it's work, not taking a pill. I have worked with so many that resented the notion of working for their inner peace, they just want it handed to them. That was certainly a thing when working with eating disordered clients. There were so many times that clients fought us, and argued with treatment. .but when they did the work, the changes began, it's just so hard to get some to see that

It is resolved I feel, thank you my friend!
Yes...I think she will see from the lecture of mine I sent her that it has little to do with the actual mushrooms and more to do with doing the work on yourself.
Throughout the whole talk I really only speak of using mushrooms to facilitate and assist with other modalities of self-help.
Things like self-acceptance of pain, meditation, understanding your own reactions and emotional responses, mindfulness, etc.
Yes...I can see people fighting it.
My cousin has a daughter who needed treatment for anorexia - she was much the same as you described.
It's not easy to change a persons' perspective...and it's not easy to get someone who isn't motivated properly to find the boost they need sometimes either.
Yes...inner peace is a constant striving imho.
Albeit one very worthwhile.

Lots of love!
Thanks again for all your suggestions and input!!
:<3white::<3white:
 
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Very thought-provoking.

Can Dreams Be Prophetic?
How might you tell if your dreams are predicting something?
Posted Feb 28, 2020

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https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/transcending-the-past/202002/can-dreams-be-prophetic


In September of 1913, Carl Jung, the great pioneer of depth psychology, was on a train in his homeland of Switzerland when he experienced a waking vision.

Gazing out the window at the countryside, he saw Europe inundated by a devastating flood.
The vision shocked and disturbed him.

Two weeks later, on the same journey, the vision reoccurred.
This time an inner voice told him: “Look at it well; it is wholly real and it will be so. You cannot doubt it.”

Years later, in his memoir, Memories, Dreams and Reflections, he recalls the event and his concern that he was having a psychotic break.

“I was suddenly seized by an overpowering vision: I saw a monstrous flood covering all the northern and low-lying lands between the North Sea and the Alps. When it came up to Switzerland I saw that the mountains grew higher and higher to protect our country. I realized that a frightful catastrophe was in progress. I saw the mighty yellow waves, the floating rubble of civilization, and the drowned bodies of uncounted thousands. Then the whole sea turned to blood.”

The following spring of 1914, he had three catastrophic dreams in which he saw Europe was deluged by ice, the vegetation was gone, and the land deserted by humans.

Despite his awareness that the situation in Europe was “darkening,” he interpreted these dreams personally and feared he was going mad.
However, by August of that year, his dreams and visions were affirmed: World War I had broken out.

Some fifty years earlier, President Abraham Lincoln had a prophetic dream.
Three days before he was assassinated, Lincoln conveyed his dream to his wife and a group of friends.

Ward Hill Lamon, an attending companion, recorded the conversation.

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“Abraham's Dream! Coming Events Cast Their Shadow Before.” Lithograph by Currier & Ives (1864)​

“About ten days ago I retired very late.
I had been up waiting for important dispatches from the front.

I could not have been long in bed when I fell into a slumber, for I was weary.
I soon began to dream.

There seemed to be a death-like stillness about me.
Think I heard subdued sobs, as if a number of people were weeping.

I thought I left my bed and wandered downstairs.
There the silence was broken by the same pitiful sobbing, but the mourners were invisible.

I went from room to room; no living person was in sight, but the same mournful sounds of distress met me as I passed along.
It was light in all the rooms; every object was familiar to me; but where were all the people who were grieving as if their hearts would break?

I was puzzled and alarmed.
What could be the meaning of all this?

Determined to find the cause of a state of things so mysterious and so shocking, I kept on until I arrived at the East Room, which I entered.
There I met with a sickening surprise.

Before me was a catafalque, on which rested a corpse wrapped in funeral vestments.
Around it were stationed soldiers who were acting as guards; and there was a throng of people, some gazing mournfully upon the corpse, whose face was covered, others weeping pitifully. ‘Who is dead in the White House?’ I demanded of one of the soldiers. ‘The President,’ was his answer; ‘he was killed by an assassin.’

Then came a loud burst of grief from the crowd, which woke me from my dream.
I slept no more that night; and although it was only a dream, I have been strangely annoyed by it ever since.”
(Recollections of Abraham Lincoln, 1847-1865 by Ward Hill Lamon, published 1911.)

Two weeks later, on April 14, 1865, Lincoln was assassinated by John Wilkes Booth.
As in his dream, his casket was put on view in the East Room of the White House and guarded by soldiers.

These are two chilling examples of dreams that occurred during periods of collective crisis which accurately predicted historical turning points.
Do prophetic dreams occur more often during turbulent times?

How does the dreamer know if a dream is to be interpreted personally and symbolically or as a warning for others and the world at large?

I asked these questions to Dr. Murray Stein, a renowned author and Jungian analyst at the International School for Analytic Psychology in Zurich, Switzerland.

Dr. Stein replied that he had no statistics on whether people have predictive dreams more frequently in times of crisis than at other times.
In his experience, one can’t know if a dream is precognitive until after the event.

After 9/11, he told me, people reported precognitive dreams that foretold the disaster.
He said people also reported that dreams foretold the financial crisis of 2008, which he called, “a black swan event.”

According to Investopedia:

“A black swan is an unpredictable event that is beyond what is normally expected of a situation and has potentially severe consequences.
Black swan events are characterized by their extreme rarity, their severe impact, and the practice of explaining widespread failure to predict them as simple folly in hindsight.”

The recent outbreak of the coronavirus might be considered a black swan event, and perhaps we will soon hear about people who have had prophetic dreams of its manifestation.

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Daniel Interpreting Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream (c. 1670) by Mattia Preti (1613-1699)​

While there is no simple answer or proven method to discern whether a dream should be interpreted personally or more broadly, we can go about exploring its contents with both aspects in mind.

For example, if I have a dream in which I am a child who has been put into a cage.
I might ask: What aspect of me feels “caged” right now?

Noting that I am a child in the dream, I might further inquire: Is there something from my childhood that is still confining and constricting me?
I might try to estimate the age of the child in the dream and reflect back to when I was that age and try to remember if something significant happened then.

Maybe my parents had begun to think about divorce at that time and I felt caged by their emotions.
I might then inquire if there is something similar going on in my life right now, not necessarily a divorce, but an imminent disruption or the loss of a treasured relationship.

When we go back into a dream to amplify it, each question generates other questions that can lead to deeply buried insights.
(For a more complete explanation of Jung’s use of amplification as a technique, please see Michael Vannoy Adams’ description on JungNewYork.

But what if I dream that I am a child that has been put into a cage, and a few days later, I discover that children of immigrants are actually being held in cages in detention centers?

My dream, while personally relevant, would carry a collective, or more public meaning, as well.
This collective meaning of the dream attests to the interconnectedness of our species, to our capacity for empathy (we see a horror on the news and we feel it enter us) and to the common values we share about the quality of human life.

If we had lived during the early part of the last century, or in an Indigenous culture, or in ancient Mesopotamia, we might examine our dreams for deep wisdom and as augurs for the future.

These days we are more likely to look to neuroscience to understand our dreams.
Neurobiology tells us that sleep is a complex neural activity of the brain that stays busy activating and deactivating complicated neuro-systems while we doze, including consolidating memories, regulating mood, restoring immune function, and many other important utilitarian tasks.

But neuroscience tells us nothing about the meaning of dreams or why our dreaming life has carried significance for humans since we first walked the planet.

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Gilgamesh and Enkidu fight the Bull of Heaven. Gilgamesh cylinder seal, Assyria, c. 7th century BCE.​

About thirty thousand years ago, toward the end of the Paleolithic Era, our hunter-gather forebears descended into the subterranean darkness of caves to enact rituals of trance and dreaming.

Recently, archaeologists and ethnographers have speculated that the artifacts found in the caves of southern Europe—bone flutes, whistles, and types of drums—and the now-famous discovery of cave wall paintings indicate that ancient shamans may have used these caves for ceremonial dream retreats (See in particular the work of David Lewis-Williams).

We can speculate that the depictions of bison and large and small game along with scenes of hunting painted on the walls may reflect shamanic dream content.

Perhaps the shaman ascended from his retreat having had visions about the abundance and location of prey, which would be crucial information for the clan.

Later human societies continued to transcribe their dreams.
The oldest written dream recorded is in the Sumerian epic poem of Gilgamesh (2100 BCE).

Not unlike King Nebuchadnezzar’s frightening dream in the Book of Daniel, Gilgamesh, the king of the Sumerian city Uruk, has violent nightmares about death, which shake him to the core and send him on his quest for immortality.

But Gilgamesh cannot interpret his own dreams, and like many of the dreamers in the Old Testament, he is in need of an interpreter.
How telling that from ancient times the one who receives the dream and the one who knows its significance are different people.

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Nicholas Black Elk with his daughter Lucy Black Elk and wife Anna Brings White.​

In some contemporary cultures, dreams are thought to be a way of receiving messages from the spirit world.
A holy man or medicine woman, an elder or shaman is the receiver of the prophetic dream, which is given for the benefit of all and linked to the survival of the tribe or people.

Black Elk, the holy medicine man of the Lakota Sioux, stated this when he said a dream is worthless unless it is shared with the tribe.

How can we relate to the dreams that pursue us?
Are they simply the result of complex neurological activity and without real meaning, just as we know the moon is no enchanted sphere but a mere rock in space?

What might we miss if we cast our lot with a viewpoint based wholly on the material world?
Is it possible to consider the two worlds as being equally meaningful, the world of science and—to borrow the phrase John Keats used to characterize adventurers on the threshold of a new frontier—the world of “wild surmise”?

Can we think of ourselves as vessels open to receiving wisdom through non-ordinary means?
Can we be our own shamans?





 
Yay. :relaxed: Awsome how you managed that! I believe you would, solving it with feelings of no regret nor self-sacrifice, and she is lucky to have met you as a part of her journey. Now it is up to her to hear the journey's further call!
 
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