Sheena
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I am reading this and it is very interesting
My Schizotypal Personality
- Thread starter Craig Weiler
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I am reading this and it is very interesting
anarkandi
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There's alot of things in the DSM-IV for schizotypes which don't fit HSP's and INFJs. I highly doubt we're necessarily correlated, for one, I'm not even remotely paranoid, and I don't blame my mistakes on my peers, I blame them on myself mostly.
Craig Weiler
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I recently had lunch with a psychologist by the name of Liz Jelinek(website: http://www.lizjelinek.com/) who met with me to discuss something called Systemic Constellations. (You'd all relate to this just fine. but it's another subject.) She was telling me about how psychology is moving towards doing therapy sessions almost exclusively with scripts. That is to say, the therapist is basically reading from a script (from memory) just like a telemarketer would.
I told her that I would pick up on that immediately and sense that it was in some way, emotionally dishonest even if I had no idea what was happening. When people do things like that they're not emotionally engaged and no way would I stand for that crap. What she said next surprised me a great deal.
She said that this trait was incredibly rare. Over 99% of the crowd will never know that they're being played and go along with this method just fine. She felt that my attunement and sensitivity was off the charts. Since, by your comments I know that you're all in the same boat with me here, I thought that I would share that since it came from a certified health professional working in her field.
Craig Weiler
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The DSM-IV is seriously screwed up in this category, so don't take it seriously. A hypnotherapist named David Ritchey, who studied schizotypals pointed out that you could potentially assign eleven different pathological conditions to this personality type. It's a sign that the system is screwed up, not the people.
anarkandi
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But what basis do you have to point out schizotypals to be similar to INFJs and Highly sensitive people? This is where I don't follow, you don't have the education in the area, and you don't have any studies you point to, why should I see your classification as more reasonable than theirs?
Oh, and I do think you have alot of reasonable thoughts during the topic, I just don't believe in the general story.
muir
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DSM -IV is a system of control
It casts its net wide so that it can categorise anyone as anything (pretty much)
This is because psychiatry is part of the control apparatus of the state. It is simply another way in which the state can deal with people who are disharmonious with it.
There are many people who are disharmonious with the state for a very simple reason: the state is FUCKED UP
Someone once explained it to me in terms of the computer HAL in space oddessy 2001. HAL is programmed to protect and serve humans but half way through its mission it gets sent new instructions to act in a way that will endanger the life of the spaceships crew.
This contrast between what HAL is being instructed to do and what HAL believes is right causes cognative dissonance. HAL becomes paranoid and violent towards the crew.
This same process goes on in our society.
We have evolved over 200, 000 years to live in communities but the recent system of capitalism has seen these community groups break down. Instead of members of a community individuals have become isolated and atomized living to work and consume and being forced into very narrow patterns of behaviour.
This new way of doing things is going against our evolution and we are seeing a lot of cognitive dissonance developing in people which is manifesting in many different ways. Many people are taking mood stabilizing drugs, even more people are self medicating with alcohol, drugs, tabacco, caffeine, food, computer games etc.
One look around at the state of the economy, at the rising levels of crime and poverty, of the wars fought abroad, of the developing police state and of the damage to the enviroment will tell any objective person that our current system is SICK and is making people sick
Psychiatry has become one of the ways in which the behaviour of people is modified to mould them to fit this sick system.
Adam Curtis made a good documentary about this called 'The Century of the Self', which can be watched here: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-century-of-the-self/
Very interesting blog by the way Craig. I agree that there is not enough awareness of the nuances of human emotion and personality and not enough understanding and acceptance.
The reason being that the power elites do not want us to be free thinking, individuated, empowered people, they want us to be obediant, confused, divided and pliable workers and consumers
It casts its net wide so that it can categorise anyone as anything (pretty much)
This is because psychiatry is part of the control apparatus of the state. It is simply another way in which the state can deal with people who are disharmonious with it.
There are many people who are disharmonious with the state for a very simple reason: the state is FUCKED UP
Someone once explained it to me in terms of the computer HAL in space oddessy 2001. HAL is programmed to protect and serve humans but half way through its mission it gets sent new instructions to act in a way that will endanger the life of the spaceships crew.
This contrast between what HAL is being instructed to do and what HAL believes is right causes cognative dissonance. HAL becomes paranoid and violent towards the crew.
This same process goes on in our society.
We have evolved over 200, 000 years to live in communities but the recent system of capitalism has seen these community groups break down. Instead of members of a community individuals have become isolated and atomized living to work and consume and being forced into very narrow patterns of behaviour.
This new way of doing things is going against our evolution and we are seeing a lot of cognitive dissonance developing in people which is manifesting in many different ways. Many people are taking mood stabilizing drugs, even more people are self medicating with alcohol, drugs, tabacco, caffeine, food, computer games etc.
One look around at the state of the economy, at the rising levels of crime and poverty, of the wars fought abroad, of the developing police state and of the damage to the enviroment will tell any objective person that our current system is SICK and is making people sick
Psychiatry has become one of the ways in which the behaviour of people is modified to mould them to fit this sick system.
Adam Curtis made a good documentary about this called 'The Century of the Self', which can be watched here: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-century-of-the-self/
Very interesting blog by the way Craig. I agree that there is not enough awareness of the nuances of human emotion and personality and not enough understanding and acceptance.
The reason being that the power elites do not want us to be free thinking, individuated, empowered people, they want us to be obediant, confused, divided and pliable workers and consumers
Craig Weiler
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The connection between INFJ's and the schizotypal personality type is made by David Ritchey in his book The H.I.S.S. of the A.S.P. He is a health professional who has spent far more time studying this personality type than anyone else. As far as I know, he's the presiding expert. I had been doing research on this same topic on my own and had come to many of the same conclusions. He just did a much more thorough job of it.
The main problem with the DSM IV is that it was heavily influenced by materialist, reductionist scientists who chose to pathologize psychic people rather than consider the possibility that their experiences are valid.
anarkandi
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This subject interests me, because I've read some criticism about the DSM-IV criterias, but I haven't quite read into that world, so I don't really know what to say. Is it really wrong to pathologize psychic people, considering they do see things that haven't been scientifically proven, doesen't that mean in a logical sense, that they are delusional? I don't see anything wrong with it, I just don't want to force treatment on a psychic who is able to use the abillity to gain and learn things, someone who isn't impaired by his/her ability, but I do see a reason to treat impaired psychics, who do hurt and get hurt by this ability to see things that aren't scientifically proven to exist.
Peppermint
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I'm highly skeptical of the left brain divide, but there is research that shows a correlation between dopamine activity in brain similar to the one that was observed in actual schizophrenics and creativity and eccentricity.
Craig Weiler
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Anarkandi,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I've provided a very limited overview of parapsychological science on my blog:
http://weilerpsiblog.wordpress.com/evidence-for-psi/
There is an important distinction to be made that most people are not aware of: Psi is not accepted by mainstream science, but it has been proven to exist by any reasonable scientific standard. Most things you read about parapsychological science, even from scientists, are really nothing more than the sort of talking points you will find on Fox News. The truth is, there are about four scientists in the world who are familiar with the science and who are skeptics. They are Ray Hyman, Richard Wiseman, Susan Blackmore and James Alcock. Anyone else with a skeptical opinion is a pretender.
Of those four people, Ray Hyman has gotten to the point where he is merely speculating that while the positive results mean something, it might not be psi.
Richard Wiseman has stated that the results meet ordinary scientific standards, but that because psi is so unusual, it should be held to extraordinary standards.
Susan Blackmore has dropped out of the debate after basically conceding that psi might exist.
James Alcock is strictly hardcore and has never budged an inch. You can tell by the incredibly insulting way he presents the research in his articles.
As for psychic people, it does no good to treat psychic ability as non existent and this approach can be harmful by leading people to think that they are crazy. In my opinion, few psychologists are equipped to deal with psychic people. The personality type is too rare and too much superstition surrounds it. The problems psychic people have can be quite strange and therefore the methods for solving them might not be readily apparent, even to a health professional.
anarkandi
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Sorry for the closed minded approach. I am a person who has used ESP but still can't bring myself to believe in it. I want to be a rational person, but I've experienced things that make me seem very irrational, and I can only try to laugh my way out of it, and hope there's an explanation.
I'll read through those links with great interest. I'll propably still not be able to believe in them, though. It freaks me out too much. And I'll think there's another explanation. Maybe the Ganz study is affected by some other variable that's not noticed in the study, like somehow being able to affect the answer, maybe the fact that ESP is never reliable is an answer. Maybe we're stuck in the matrix. Hmm.
Craig Weiler
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Sorry for the close minded approach? He he. You are not close minded at all. Not by a long shot. I've tangled with the truly close minded crowd; you can be proud not to be in that category.
If you're having trouble accepting the existence of psi, it does help to read through the scientific literature on that subject. An excellent book that is mostly available in libraries is "The Conscious Universe" by Dean Radin. It's a very good, if somewhat dated overview of what studies have been done and what the results are.
Keep this in mind: About 80% of the world has had psychic experiences. You're not alone, not at all.
knight in battle
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If you were born left handed, but then became right handed being corrected by adults, would you still be considered left-handed?
Do you believe Lenore Thompson's theory that INJs are left brain dominant? (and IFPs are right brain dominant, etc)? If so, how is it possible to be both INFJ and schizotypal?
Craig Weiler
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Making write right handed does nothing to change the fact that you're left handed. (Developing motor skills for your right hand can be valuable though, since so many tools rely on right handed use.) INFJ's are creative, which means that we are right brain dominant. I'm not aware of Lenore Thompson's theory, but it is wrong. The confusion may come from the fact that we have less lateral brains, meaning that we tend to use both sides more than most people. This can make us formidable when we apply logical thinking because we are better with the holistic concepts and therefore less likely to get trapped in bad logic.
knight in battle
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That makes me feel better. lol
U
Untitled
I find that phenomena that comes under the heading of ESP isn't really realiable enough in my case to base my decisions on it. Some rare people have it honed to such a degree that I'd make an exception in their cases. Like I think the fact that law enforcement uses psychics for some cases is a really good argument. They certainly wouldn't do it if there weren't any results. For the most part though I think people who claim psychic powers are 90% deluded. I also sometimes wonder if many people who do test as INFJ are the type that think God lives in their toaster (I'll leave the philosophical argument wether this could be true out of it ;D). I think there's a fine line, and part of balancing on the safe side is to be somewhat sceptical. People who are not at all sceptical really have problems. ...and yes we're arguing here wether INFJs are schitzotypal, but if you've ever met a full blown schizofrenic having a psychotic episode then you know there's a world of difference. there is a fine line between spiritual/ open minded and out of touch with reality. To quote Dali
U
Untitled
eep:By the way...I didn't mean that the people here who have psychic experiences are deluded... I've had some traumatizing New Agey experiences with people
hippiewho think it's ok to pray to trolls before dinner and :flypig:s and who will seriously come and tell you that you've been a warrior princess in your last incarnation and that your aura's all rainbowy...:twitch:I try to be openminded but sometimes it's just :jaw: :boink:
Craig Weiler
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Schizotypal is not schizophrenia and the studies in this field, most having to do with creativity, make a strong distinction between the two. INFJ's are categorized as having "less lateralized brains" so this confirms what you're saying that we're balanced in our thinking to a degree unheard of in other personality types.
As INFP's and INFJ's comprise a tiny fraction of the general population, it's safe to assume that most of the so-called psychic people are posers.
There's an old saying: "Keep an open mind, but don't let your brains fall out."
U
Untitled
@Craig Weller
I get what you're saying about there being perceived similiarities between schizotypal behaviour and some aspects I, an INFJ, recognize in myself. I can't help but wonder though... Other than when I was younger and much more shy I don't have social issues, and most of my beliefs are shared by a large number of people who are not considered nutty. I've had some silly moments of credulity when I'm investigating something I'm interested in that may result in momentary silliness, but I regain my composure (and critical faculties)fairly fast.
I read a description of the disorder by the Mayo clinic and can't personally subscribe to being schizotypal.
Symptoms
By Mayo Clinic staff
People with classic schizotypal personalities are apt to be loners. They feel extremely anxious in social situations, but they're likely to blame their social failings on others. They view themselves as alien or outcast, and this isolation causes pain as they avoid relationships and the outside world.
People with schizotypal personalities may ramble oddly and endlessly during a conversation. They may dress in peculiar ways and have very strange ways of viewing the world around them. Often they believe in unusual ideas, such as the powers of ESP or a sixth sense. At times, they believe they can magically influence people's thoughts, actions and emotions.
In adolescence, signs of a schizotypal personality may begin as an increased interest in solitary activities or a high level of social anxiety. The child may be an underperformer in school or appear socially out-of-step with peers, and as a result often becomes the subject of bullying or teasing.
Schizotypal personality disorder symptoms include:
Incorrect interpretation of events, including feeling that external events have personal meaning
Peculiar thinking, beliefs or behavior
Belief in special powers, such as telepathy
Perceptual alterations, in some cases bodily illusions, including phantom pains or other distortions in the sense of touch
Idiosyncratic speech, such as loose or vague patterns of speaking or tendency to go off on tangents
Suspicious or paranoid ideas
Flat emotions or inappropriate emotional responses
Lack of close friends outside of the immediate family
Persistent and excessive social anxiety that doesn't abate with time
Schizotypal personality disorder can easily be confused with schizophrenia, a severe mental illness in which affected people lose all contact with reality (psychosis). While people with schizotypal personalities may experience brief psychotic episodes with delusions or hallucinations, they are not as frequent or intense as in schizophrenia.
Another key distinction between schizotypal personality disorder and schizophrenia is that people with the personality disorder usually can be made aware of the difference between their distorted ideas and reality. Those with schizophrenia generally can't be swayed from their delusions.
Both disorders, along with schizoid personality disorder, belong to what's generally referred to as the schizophrenic spectrum. Schizotypal personality falls in the middle of the spectrum, with schizoid personality disorder on the milder end and schizophrenia on the more severe end.
When to see a doctor
Because personality tends to become entrenched as people age, it's best to seek treatment for a personality disorder as early as possible.
People with schizotypal personality are likely to seek help only at the urging of friends or relatives. If you suspect a friend or family member may have the disorder, be on the lookout for certain signs. You might gently suggest that the person seek medical attention, starting with a primary care physician or mental health provider.
I'm open to believe in some "supernatural" phenomena and like most spiritual people may interpret some events as "signs from God", but I'd be careful not to call that a symptom of a disorder, no matter what Dawkins might say about it...
...and I get a little rambly sometimes but not RAMBLY as in very incoherent-whatthehellisthispersontalkingabout-thisisjustallovertheplace-helpmeouthere-rambly
I might sometimes be a bit of a space cadette, but I don't personally think it would qualify as a mental disorder, slight eccentricity yes, disorder no.
EDIT: I think if tou think of it as a kind of a sliding scale with someone super soberminded and decidedly unspacey (like an ISTJ maybe) on the "normal" end, schitzotypal in the middle and schizofrenic at the other end this is what it would look in my mind:
soberminded, rational, traditional--->most people----->artists, innovative thinkers----->(INFJs would go around here in my mind)----spiritual visionaries---harmless eccentrics---schitzotypals--->>> untill we arrive at schitzofrenics
on a personal level, in my life I use my own scale which is like this:
someone soberminded who sees reality as it is (buddha, Jesus)---->artists, innovative thinkers---->most people---->people whose sense of reality is compromised and cannot relate to others
and I'm thinking in certain types of phenomena being interpreted a certain way magnifying at each level in a way...
Though that said I may be biased in my ideas of how a schizophrenic would be, I.e. couldn't function. I do actually know a schizophrenic, though I had no idea for years they suffered from this condition, who manages to function fine in society apart from when they have an episode from what I've heard....heard, not seen. So I don't know.
I get what you're saying about there being perceived similiarities between schizotypal behaviour and some aspects I, an INFJ, recognize in myself. I can't help but wonder though... Other than when I was younger and much more shy I don't have social issues, and most of my beliefs are shared by a large number of people who are not considered nutty. I've had some silly moments of credulity when I'm investigating something I'm interested in that may result in momentary silliness, but I regain my composure (and critical faculties)fairly fast.
I read a description of the disorder by the Mayo clinic and can't personally subscribe to being schizotypal.
Symptoms
By Mayo Clinic staff
People with classic schizotypal personalities are apt to be loners. They feel extremely anxious in social situations, but they're likely to blame their social failings on others. They view themselves as alien or outcast, and this isolation causes pain as they avoid relationships and the outside world.
People with schizotypal personalities may ramble oddly and endlessly during a conversation. They may dress in peculiar ways and have very strange ways of viewing the world around them. Often they believe in unusual ideas, such as the powers of ESP or a sixth sense. At times, they believe they can magically influence people's thoughts, actions and emotions.
In adolescence, signs of a schizotypal personality may begin as an increased interest in solitary activities or a high level of social anxiety. The child may be an underperformer in school or appear socially out-of-step with peers, and as a result often becomes the subject of bullying or teasing.
Schizotypal personality disorder symptoms include:
Incorrect interpretation of events, including feeling that external events have personal meaning
Peculiar thinking, beliefs or behavior
Belief in special powers, such as telepathy
Perceptual alterations, in some cases bodily illusions, including phantom pains or other distortions in the sense of touch
Idiosyncratic speech, such as loose or vague patterns of speaking or tendency to go off on tangents
Suspicious or paranoid ideas
Flat emotions or inappropriate emotional responses
Lack of close friends outside of the immediate family
Persistent and excessive social anxiety that doesn't abate with time
Schizotypal personality disorder can easily be confused with schizophrenia, a severe mental illness in which affected people lose all contact with reality (psychosis). While people with schizotypal personalities may experience brief psychotic episodes with delusions or hallucinations, they are not as frequent or intense as in schizophrenia.
Another key distinction between schizotypal personality disorder and schizophrenia is that people with the personality disorder usually can be made aware of the difference between their distorted ideas and reality. Those with schizophrenia generally can't be swayed from their delusions.
Both disorders, along with schizoid personality disorder, belong to what's generally referred to as the schizophrenic spectrum. Schizotypal personality falls in the middle of the spectrum, with schizoid personality disorder on the milder end and schizophrenia on the more severe end.
When to see a doctor
Because personality tends to become entrenched as people age, it's best to seek treatment for a personality disorder as early as possible.
People with schizotypal personality are likely to seek help only at the urging of friends or relatives. If you suspect a friend or family member may have the disorder, be on the lookout for certain signs. You might gently suggest that the person seek medical attention, starting with a primary care physician or mental health provider.
I'm open to believe in some "supernatural" phenomena and like most spiritual people may interpret some events as "signs from God", but I'd be careful not to call that a symptom of a disorder, no matter what Dawkins might say about it...
...and I get a little rambly sometimes but not RAMBLY as in very incoherent-whatthehellisthispersontalkingabout-thisisjustallovertheplace-helpmeouthere-rambly
I might sometimes be a bit of a space cadette, but I don't personally think it would qualify as a mental disorder, slight eccentricity yes, disorder no.
EDIT: I think if tou think of it as a kind of a sliding scale with someone super soberminded and decidedly unspacey (like an ISTJ maybe) on the "normal" end, schitzotypal in the middle and schizofrenic at the other end this is what it would look in my mind:
soberminded, rational, traditional--->most people----->artists, innovative thinkers----->(INFJs would go around here in my mind)----spiritual visionaries---harmless eccentrics---schitzotypals--->>> untill we arrive at schitzofrenics
on a personal level, in my life I use my own scale which is like this:
someone soberminded who sees reality as it is (buddha, Jesus)---->artists, innovative thinkers---->most people---->people whose sense of reality is compromised and cannot relate to others
and I'm thinking in certain types of phenomena being interpreted a certain way magnifying at each level in a way...
Though that said I may be biased in my ideas of how a schizophrenic would be, I.e. couldn't function. I do actually know a schizophrenic, though I had no idea for years they suffered from this condition, who manages to function fine in society apart from when they have an episode from what I've heard....heard, not seen. So I don't know.
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Craig Weiler
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@Craig Weller
I get what you're saying about there being perceived similiarities between schizotypal behaviour and some aspects I, an INFJ, recognize in myself. I can't help but wonder though... Other than when I was younger and much more shy I don't have social issues, and most of my beliefs are shared by a large number of people who are not considered nutty. I've had some silly moments of credulity when I'm investigating something I'm interested in that may result in momentary silliness, but I regain my composure (and critical faculties)fairly fast.
I read a description of the disorder by the Mayo clinic and can't personally subscribe to being schizotypal.
Symptoms
By Mayo Clinic staff
People with classic schizotypal personalities are apt to be loners. They feel extremely anxious in social situations, but they're likely to blame their social failings on others. They view themselves as alien or outcast, and this isolation causes pain as they avoid relationships and the outside world.
People with schizotypal personalities may ramble oddly and endlessly during a conversation. They may dress in peculiar ways and have very strange ways of viewing the world around them. Often they believe in unusual ideas, such as the powers of ESP or a sixth sense. At times, they believe they can magically influence people's thoughts, actions and emotions.
In adolescence, signs of a schizotypal personality may begin as an increased interest in solitary activities or a high level of social anxiety. The child may be an underperformer in school or appear socially out-of-step with peers, and as a result often becomes the subject of bullying or teasing.
Schizotypal personality disorder symptoms include:
Incorrect interpretation of events, including feeling that external events have personal meaning
Peculiar thinking, beliefs or behavior
Belief in special powers, such as telepathy
Perceptual alterations, in some cases bodily illusions, including phantom pains or other distortions in the sense of touch
Idiosyncratic speech, such as loose or vague patterns of speaking or tendency to go off on tangents
Suspicious or paranoid ideas
Flat emotions or inappropriate emotional responses
Lack of close friends outside of the immediate family
Persistent and excessive social anxiety that doesn't abate with time
Schizotypal personality disorder can easily be confused with schizophrenia, a severe mental illness in which affected people lose all contact with reality (psychosis). While people with schizotypal personalities may experience brief psychotic episodes with delusions or hallucinations, they are not as frequent or intense as in schizophrenia.
Another key distinction between schizotypal personality disorder and schizophrenia is that people with the personality disorder usually can be made aware of the difference between their distorted ideas and reality. Those with schizophrenia generally can't be swayed from their delusions.
Both disorders, along with schizoid personality disorder, belong to what's generally referred to as the schizophrenic spectrum. Schizotypal personality falls in the middle of the spectrum, with schizoid personality disorder on the milder end and schizophrenia on the more severe end.
When to see a doctor
Because personality tends to become entrenched as people age, it's best to seek treatment for a personality disorder as early as possible.
People with schizotypal personality are likely to seek help only at the urging of friends or relatives. If you suspect a friend or family member may have the disorder, be on the lookout for certain signs. You might gently suggest that the person seek medical attention, starting with a primary care physician or mental health provider.
I'm open to believe in some "supernatural" phenomena and like most spiritual people may interpret some events as "signs from God", but I'd be careful not to call that a symptom of a disorder, no matter what Dawkins might say about it...
...and I get a little rambly sometimes but not RAMBLY as in very incoherent-whatthehellisthispersontalkingabout-thisisjustallovertheplace-helpmeouthere-rambly
I might sometimes be a bit of a space cadette, but I don't personally think it would qualify as a mental disorder, slight eccentricity yes, disorder no.
EDIT: I think if tou think of it as a kind of a sliding scale with someone super soberminded and decidedly unspacey (like an ISTJ maybe) on the "normal" end, schitzotypal in the middle and schizofrenic at the other end this is what it would look in my mind:
soberminded, rational, traditional--->most people----->artists, innovative thinkers----->(INFJs would go around here in my mind)----spiritual visionaries---harmless eccentrics---schitzotypals--->>> untill we arrive at schitzofrenics
on a personal level, in my life I use my own scale which is like this:
someone soberminded who sees reality as it is (buddha, Jesus)---->artists, innovative thinkers---->most people---->people whose sense of reality is compromised and cannot relate to others
and I'm thinking in certain types of phenomena being interpreted a certain way magnifying at each level in a way...
Though that said I may be biased in my ideas of how a schizophrenic would be, I.e. couldn't function. I do actually know a schizophrenic, though I had no idea for years they suffered from this condition, who manages to function fine in society apart from when they have an episode from what I've heard....heard, not seen. So I don't know.
I read this description from the Mayo clinic. It is hilarious. Don't take it too seriously. This is what happens when mental health professionals encounter something that they do not understand. If you read between the lines, they're just pathologizing psychic ability and being highly sensitive. It's absurd and it was written by people who have no idea what they're talking about. To them: psychic ability = crazy. Because if they admit that psychic people are perfectly sane, then that casts doubts on their belief that it doesn't exist.