acd
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How do you know that NFPs know themselves less than NFJs? Based on what?
NFs Do you compromise your identity?
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It is more that NFP's tend to focus on what they want, and how they want themselves to be; they're more idealistic then the NFJ's are. As such they tend to focus on their inner ideals and shun off parts of there persona that aren't seen as "good". If you ignore parts of yourself that are seen as bad or undesireable it usually leads to problems, and minimized understanding of who you are.
Again, this is a trend, not an absoulute .
Again, this is a trend, not an absoulute .
daydreamer
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Oh yes, for sure! I have to act differently in order to survive!
DefectiveCreative
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I think I've already answered this question on a different thread, but in short (IIRC) I said that INFPs usually do try to "wear masks" but our dominant Fi means that we tend to have all kinds of problems with doing it, mostly because it makes us feel like frauds.
That makes sense to me, I can see how that would lead to your average INFP knowing themselves less well than your average INFJ, but then again INFJs can suffer more from the problem that Azure-Knight raised, not knowing where the mask ends and the real personality begins (perhaps because of the greater emphasis on Fe?).
I'm also not sure that I agree with what you said in your earlier post about INFPs thinking about their identity less than INFJs do. We think about it all the time, I think the difference may just be in how we go about thinking about it.
Indigo Sensor said:It is more that NFP's tend to focus on what they want, and how they want themselves to be; they're more idealistic then the NFJ's are. As such they tend to focus on their inner ideals and shun off parts of there persona that aren't seen as "good". If you ignore parts of yourself that are seen as bad or undesireable it usually leads to problems, and minimized understanding of who you are.
Again, this is a trend, not an absoulute .
That makes sense to me, I can see how that would lead to your average INFP knowing themselves less well than your average INFJ, but then again INFJs can suffer more from the problem that Azure-Knight raised, not knowing where the mask ends and the real personality begins (perhaps because of the greater emphasis on Fe?).
I'm also not sure that I agree with what you said in your earlier post about INFPs thinking about their identity less than INFJs do. We think about it all the time, I think the difference may just be in how we go about thinking about it.
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I'm a mask wearing chameleon, you should see my collection 
And I have big trouble with getting of the mask. I sometimes doesn't remember or know who I am without a mask, figures :loco:
But the are all parts of the real me. Althoug I'm wearing a mask, there is still a bit of my left
and that makes it so difficult for me to notice when I'm wearing a mask and when I'm not and who I would be if I didn't
And I have big trouble with getting of the mask. I sometimes doesn't remember or know who I am without a mask, figures :loco:
But the are all parts of the real me. Althoug I'm wearing a mask, there is still a bit of my left
and that makes it so difficult for me to notice when I'm wearing a mask and when I'm not and who I would be if I didn't
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I think your going to find that the answer is an overwhelming yes here. Most people in general have masks they can utilize as needed. INFJ's as a whole are moreso I think. I base this only on myself and my observations, not any written theories or information. I need to have a variety of masks, especially for work. Although is gets harder for me to use these as stress get ratched up.
Also, in many situations I don't want people seeing the "true" me. This has become less so as I get older, but is still somewhat true. Sometimes it's just easier. I don't think of it as dishonest. Its just showing a lesser used, smaller part of myself.
Also, in many situations I don't want people seeing the "true" me. This has become less so as I get older, but is still somewhat true. Sometimes it's just easier. I don't think of it as dishonest. Its just showing a lesser used, smaller part of myself.
Solar Empath
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I'm not sure. I guess I do use a lot of masks, but some of them are really intentional focuses on certain traits. For instance at work I intentionally try to see people as emotional human beings and not just customers. It makes serving them easier and more rewarding.
My most common 'mask' is simply the suppression of my deepest feelings and opinions. I do it to survive the shallowness of every day chit chat.
My most common 'mask' is simply the suppression of my deepest feelings and opinions. I do it to survive the shallowness of every day chit chat.
dvslil1
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I wear my fair share of masks and always neglect to take them off when in trusted company. I hate it, but it seems to have become a way of life and a necessary function for the purpose of self preservation.
My masks are an impermiable veil to shield me from the stupidity and ignorance of others for the most part.
My masks are an impermiable veil to shield me from the stupidity and ignorance of others for the most part.
Gaze
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Yes, this is very important to understand. Sometimes, it's easier to put aside or pretend the "bad" or "flawed" side doesn't exist, especially if you're trying to please or impress. But it's all apart of who we are, and shouldn't be ignored. Can't pretend it's not there, because it is. It's important to accept it. And fact is, those who love us are usually aware of the negatives, but typically focus on the positives instead.
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There are no masks. I'm myself all the time. Which is a very different thing in different moments of my life.
People who talk about masks of others usually just can't accept how dynamic a person can (and should!) be. It also induces unnecessary guilt, which is horrible.
Be sure that if I use in a post the sequence of monkeys:
Then, I probably really felt all that (or in that sequence) at the moment. There are others (ITPs very often) who wouldn't be able to imagine such emotional flexibility, so it seems unnatural, and even fake. Sorry, that's how one projects themselves onto others, not the reality.
Also, I would never compare NFs with chameleons, because we are way too... well, hot-blooded! ^^ NFs are more like monkeys, really, jumping around others, all the time. It's not fear or bad intention that causes us to adapt; it's curiosity, we want to experience others.
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I actually have the opposite view - that people, who aren't flexible enough, are fake, but that's just my own projection. It seems to me awfully disturbed to stick to some principles when reality around you falsifies them. They call it strong character, I call it stubborn and dangerous. Lack of openness causes stagnation, paranoia, delusions, all kinds of problems, because, hey, truth won't adapt to your conviction.
People who talk about masks of others usually just can't accept how dynamic a person can (and should!) be. It also induces unnecessary guilt, which is horrible.
Be sure that if I use in a post the sequence of monkeys:
Then, I probably really felt all that (or in that sequence) at the moment. There are others (ITPs very often) who wouldn't be able to imagine such emotional flexibility, so it seems unnatural, and even fake. Sorry, that's how one projects themselves onto others, not the reality.
Also, I would never compare NFs with chameleons, because we are way too... well, hot-blooded! ^^ NFs are more like monkeys, really, jumping around others, all the time. It's not fear or bad intention that causes us to adapt; it's curiosity, we want to experience others.
edit:
I actually have the opposite view - that people, who aren't flexible enough, are fake, but that's just my own projection. It seems to me awfully disturbed to stick to some principles when reality around you falsifies them. They call it strong character, I call it stubborn and dangerous. Lack of openness causes stagnation, paranoia, delusions, all kinds of problems, because, hey, truth won't adapt to your conviction.
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Sam
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I don't know so much about comprimising, more than about adapting. But I guess it could seem like compromising, I tend to absorb influence, information and opinions and maybe as a result change my own views on things.
When dealing with people I've just met, I usually try to relate to them on a level I feel like we can get along with, in a way I try to build a bridge.
In a way it's me observing and interpreting how much of "me" I can let out, how much they're able to handle, and ofc how much I'm willing to show, I still have issues with self-revealing.
But a friend I love and whom I opened up after a couple years of knowing her told me "oh yeah, you play your roles very well. Can put up a perfect facade." I don't know if it's a compliment though, but that was an outsider's view
When dealing with people I've just met, I usually try to relate to them on a level I feel like we can get along with, in a way I try to build a bridge.
In a way it's me observing and interpreting how much of "me" I can let out, how much they're able to handle, and ofc how much I'm willing to show, I still have issues with self-revealing.
But a friend I love and whom I opened up after a couple years of knowing her told me "oh yeah, you play your roles very well. Can put up a perfect facade." I don't know if it's a compliment though, but that was an outsider's view
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randomsomeone
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An interesting topic. The question for me is more about accessing different facets of my true personality. Of course, my true self is a composite of selves all intermingled and interconnected. So my questions would not be "which mask?" but more "which me?" In this case, the facet I am bringing to the front is not false, it is very true to "me" and very much refracted through the other facets of "me." I may be the only one who realizes this in short-exposure situations, but over a period of time I think others would probably pick up that my funny self is influenced by my tragic self, that my logical self leans heavily on my intuative self, and that my social self runs out of steam, requiring solitude to balance it out. So it isn't false...it's really authentic, yet diverse at the same time.
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I really thought this was one of my defining NFP traits, and I'm surprised to find out the NFJs have so much in common with this.
Let's talk about social chameleonhood, shall we?
I speak 11 languages, and can imitate regional dialects in most of them. Native speakers almost always assume I'm a native speaker not just because my pronunciation is so accurate, but because I can imitate the cultural mannerisms, expressions, body language, and sensibilities. For example, at a party I once put on an English accent and convinced all of the English people there that I was from New Castle. When my friends revealed that I wasn't, none of them could believe I wasn't until I then switched regions from Oxford, to Liverpool, to East End. Their dropped jaws were worth the effort, but they still wouldn't believe I wasn't English until I dropped the accents all together.
My INTJ friend has more than once had her jaw dropped at how quickly and accurately I can figure out what someone needs or wants me to be and become it to a completely convincing degree. She says that when I do these things I even convince her that I might have always been this 'other person' and she's just now seeing it.
I always considered this an improvisational acting ability, that is very 'method acting', but when I take a look at it in depth, I realized that if I can get near someone, it's like I can make a mental copy of their entire mind, their personality, thought processes, everything, and then reproduce them. As mentioned, it creeps my INTJ friend out... though in such a way that prompts her to ask me to impersonate various people we know, as if she's trying to find someone I can't replicate. She thinks I'm a mental shape shifter.
I also always considered this a very NFP trait, because I assumed that J types were too resolute in themselves to do something like this, but now that I think about it, none of my NFP friends are especially good at impressions, impersonations, or the like. They can be very manipulative and seem sincere when they are not, but they're always themselves. When I do this, I can very easily become lost in the role, because in order to do it perfectly, I literally have to temporarily change the core of myself. (And this might be part of the reason I have access to so many cognitive functions from picking them up over the years, and is very likely the reason why I've had so much trouble actualizing my base personality type.)
For example, if I start speaking with a particular accent for more than ten minutes, I will be unable to switch back to normal, and have to force myself to shift back, and as I'm doing it I sound like someone who naturally has that accent attempting to imitate my own.
However, if I meet someone who has an accent, mentality, personality that I'm unfamiliar with, I really have to study that person and practice a little, even if only internally by focusing on the 'isms', before I can imitate them. Once I've got it down, I can pull it up whenever I want, and even incorporate it into a mix of others I've 'copied'.
Let's talk about social chameleonhood, shall we?
I speak 11 languages, and can imitate regional dialects in most of them. Native speakers almost always assume I'm a native speaker not just because my pronunciation is so accurate, but because I can imitate the cultural mannerisms, expressions, body language, and sensibilities. For example, at a party I once put on an English accent and convinced all of the English people there that I was from New Castle. When my friends revealed that I wasn't, none of them could believe I wasn't until I then switched regions from Oxford, to Liverpool, to East End. Their dropped jaws were worth the effort, but they still wouldn't believe I wasn't English until I dropped the accents all together.
My INTJ friend has more than once had her jaw dropped at how quickly and accurately I can figure out what someone needs or wants me to be and become it to a completely convincing degree. She says that when I do these things I even convince her that I might have always been this 'other person' and she's just now seeing it.
I always considered this an improvisational acting ability, that is very 'method acting', but when I take a look at it in depth, I realized that if I can get near someone, it's like I can make a mental copy of their entire mind, their personality, thought processes, everything, and then reproduce them. As mentioned, it creeps my INTJ friend out... though in such a way that prompts her to ask me to impersonate various people we know, as if she's trying to find someone I can't replicate. She thinks I'm a mental shape shifter.
I also always considered this a very NFP trait, because I assumed that J types were too resolute in themselves to do something like this, but now that I think about it, none of my NFP friends are especially good at impressions, impersonations, or the like. They can be very manipulative and seem sincere when they are not, but they're always themselves. When I do this, I can very easily become lost in the role, because in order to do it perfectly, I literally have to temporarily change the core of myself. (And this might be part of the reason I have access to so many cognitive functions from picking them up over the years, and is very likely the reason why I've had so much trouble actualizing my base personality type.)
For example, if I start speaking with a particular accent for more than ten minutes, I will be unable to switch back to normal, and have to force myself to shift back, and as I'm doing it I sound like someone who naturally has that accent attempting to imitate my own.
However, if I meet someone who has an accent, mentality, personality that I'm unfamiliar with, I really have to study that person and practice a little, even if only internally by focusing on the 'isms', before I can imitate them. Once I've got it down, I can pull it up whenever I want, and even incorporate it into a mix of others I've 'copied'.
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randomsomeone
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You may be right about this...the idea seems accurate in my case. Obviously you have a talent on some level, aside from any personality-driven predispositions.
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I think I first began to develop it when I was growing up in a place that no one could understand, accept, or appreciate me for who I was. I was treated very badly for it, and learned to adapt. However, my parents have long told me that I was a natural mimic and would imitate anyone and anything as a kid.
This might not be an especially NFJ or NFP trait, come to think of it. Then again, it might be an exaggerated version of NF adaptability that is unique to me. I've only ever met one other person who could do it anywhere near the way I could, but she was undoubtedly an INTP, and her method was quite different from mine. For her, it was a matter of logic, and she never lost sight of herself.
Maybe it's like learning to draw, paint, or dance. We NF types have a predisposition to personality adaptation, but in order to develop these talents, we have to use them?
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But not here...never here.
Gaze
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Agree
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I really like what you put in bold here.
surreality
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Do you suppose that NFs compromise there identity a lot in order to craft themselves into a more socially acceptable person?
I read somewhere, in Please Understand Me actually, that NFs have a chamelion like personality and can adapt some of there quirks to fit a given situation. I have definitly experienced this, which is why I get sort of amused when people think they know me well, I am all like... "which mask were you talking about there buddy."
I have also heard other NFs mention something similar to this.
What about yous guys ?
For me, the opposite is the case. I have such a strong sense of identity and difficulty compromising any of that, that it has limited me in the sense that I choose not to wear a bunch of different masks just so I'll fit in. I really have absolutely no desire to "fit in" beyond just getting along with people in a civil and decent way.
This post comes about closest to how I am socially:
ha! Read that...along with a whole bunch of other books on the same topic and it doesn't matter what tools or behaviour practices they write about, I feel like I'm genetically incapable of putting on social masks. It's like to me, I think, "Why?? Why the hell would I want to win friends by being a certain way when that way isn't even really me?" So yeah, then i've got a bunch of so-called "friends" by being something I'm not. That's beneficial. Not.
The only friends I want are ones who truly know me and appreciate me for who I am.
As for influencing people..pffft...I have very little to no interest in influencing people, at least socially and personally. I'm a live and let live kind of person and too much of a loner. The only way that I'm interested in influence would be through education. If I learn something interesting or useful, I do like to share that for other's possible/hopeful benefit. If they take something from it and it's beneficial than that makes me feel great. If they don't well..c'est la vie.
Also, similar to alt ctrl del, I generally get very distinct like or dislike responses from people. There are those that are really drawn to me and like me right off the bat and they are rare. Then there is the vast majority that does not get me at all (and within that group there's a lot that think I'm a bit of a freak) and then there are those that cannot stand me from the get-go. Those are often, but not always, the people who where the most masks and know I can see through them.
I think the differences in responses within INFJs is down to the nurture thing and how we've chosen to exhibit our personality for deeper psychological reasons. I would theorize that Type 1 INFJs would be most likely to be adaptable and Type 5 INFJs (esp. sp type 5s) would be the least likely to care about social adaptation.
The way I'd describe myself, rather than being a social chameleon and donning masks, I'm very social awkward and to compensate for that, I don different hats, which would be bringing out whatever aspect of my personality seems to suit the occassion. I can be analytical. I can be intuitive. I can be a problem-solver. But, I'm always myself...just sometimes you are only getting the tip of the iceberg, which is on purpose. You think it's an iceberg...but you don't know what's underneath. Plus it's self preservation.