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"All the problems we face in the United States today can be traced to an unenlightened immigration policy on the part of the American Indian."
Pat Paulsen
"Not My President"
- Thread starter Lerxst
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"All the problems we face in the United States today can be traced to an unenlightened immigration policy on the part of the American Indian."
Pat Paulsen
Apone
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Most historians agree that a new era began in 1945… so it actually is a valid starting point, because as much as I know you're going to say it hasn't, imperialism ended in a big way after WWII. It was basically over after WWI, but WWII officially signaled the very end. Anyways, go ahead and tell me about the puppet states and the exploitation again.
Anyways, I do think that Capitalism in its infancy was probably harmful, but it has evolved into something that is growing increasingly more benign. I'm not defending it or touting it as an ideal-- the difference between us is that I think it's evolving into something positive, and you think that it's evolving into something negative.
Regardless, in this case I was ONLY talking about the period after WWII… which actually DID improve Japan-- they were legally prohibited from rebuilding their army or waging war-- you can say 'oh but they were warlike in the first half of the 20th century', but that's completely ignoring a massive shift that deeply affected the government and culture. You're ignoring all of the positives and focusing only on the negatives… as if it's impossible to work off debts, or to balance budgets or improve the deficit, or find solutions for problems apart from destroying everything and starting something that may or may not collapse into tyranny.
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Yeah, but it's not 1813 anymore.
muir
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I don't think distortions of language related to sport are going to dissempower people as much as distortions of political language
A distortion of language regarding football might lead to confusion over which sport you are talking about
A distortion of language regarding political ideologies can hide an entire way of seeing the world from a person...and that is dissempowering
muir
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I could talk about puppet states like the overthrow of the democratically elected Iranian government in 1953...that would be a valid point but for a change lets look at a deeper level of this thing
I could even talk about Project Mockingbird which was a CIA operation to infiltrate and control the US media but now i've mentioned it you can look into it yourself. here's a wikipedia link about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Mockingbird
You mentioned diamonds earlier and i mentioned how the De Beers diamond company was financed by the Rothschilds. The head of the company was Cecil Rhodes who set up the Round Table group. He left money in his will for this purpose and this was what he said in his will about it:
''To and for the establishment, promotion and development of a Secret Society, the true aim and object whereof shall be for the extension of British rule throughout the world, the perfecting of a system of emigration from the United Kingdom, and of colonisation by British subjects of all lands where the means of livelihood are attainable by energy, labour and enterprise, and especially the occupation by British settlers of the entire Continent of Africa, the Holy Land, the Valley of the Euphrates, the Islands of Cyprus and Candia, the whole of South America, the Islands of the Pacific not heretofore possessed by Great Britain, the whole of the Malay Archipelago, the seaboard of China and Japan, the ultimate recovery of the United States of America as an integral part of the British Empire, the inauguration of a system of Colonial representation in the Imperial Parliament which may tend to weld together the disjointed members of the Empire and, finally, the foundation of so great a Power as to render wars impossible, and promote the best interests of humanity''
The round table group gave birth to think tanks such as the Council on Foreign Relations in the USA and Chatham House in the UK. These groups have a huge influence on the media and on foreign policy:
[video=youtube;8_YVCDaKX3A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_YVCDaKX3A[/video]
Another key member in this organisation was Alfred Milner which is why Professor Carroll Quigley called the group the ''Milner Group'' in his book ''Tragedy and Hope'' in which he had this to say:
"The powers of financial capitalism had [a] far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert by secret agreements arrived at in frequent private meetings and conferences."
I hope that quote's in 'context' enough for you
Alfred Milner was like Rhodes a Freemason, of course as all key British and US establishment figures are and he had a number of titles as follows:
- CB: Companion of the Order of the Bath - 1894
- KCB: Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath - 1895
- GCB: Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath - 1 January 1901 - New Year′s honours list[SUP][4][/SUP]
- GCMG: Knight Grand Cross of the Order of St Michael and St George
- KG: Knight of the Order of the Garter - 1921
"I am a Nationalist and not a cosmopolitan .... I am a British (indeed primarily an English) Nationalist. If I am also an Imperialist, it is because the destiny of the English race, owing to its insular position and long supremacy at sea, has been to strike roots in different parts of the world. I am an Imperialist and not a Little Englander because I am a British Race Patriot ... The British State must follow the race, must comprehend it, wherever it settles in appreciable numbers as an independent community. If the swarms constantly being thrown off by the parent hive are lost to the State, the State is irreparably weakened. We cannot afford to part with so much of our best blood. We have already parted with much of it, to form the millions of another separate but fortunately friendly State. We cannot suffer a repetition of the process."
I'm not debating with you on this point, i'm TELLING YOU that the people behind imperialism don't give a damn about Africans or the future of Africa
Prof Quigley lectured President Clinton at university and here are his credentials:
Carroll Quigley was a professor of history at Georgetown University from 1941 to 1976. He also taught at Princeton and at Harvard, and lectured at the Brookings Institution. He was a frequent lecturer at the U.S. Naval Weapons Laboratory, the Foreign Service Institute, and the Naval College at Norfolk, Virginia. In 1958, he served as a consultant to the Congressional Select Committee which set up the National Space Agency. http://www.wanttoknow.info/articles/tragedy_hope_banking_money_history
In addition to his academic work, Quigley served as a consultant to the U.S. Department of Defense, the U.S. Navy, the Smithsonian Institution, and the House Select Committee on Astronautics and Space Exploration in the 1950s.[SUP][1][/SUP] Quigley served as a book reviewer for the Washington Star and was a contributor and editorial board member of Current History.[SUP][2][/SUP][SUP]:94[/SUP] His work emphasized "inclusive diversity" as a value of Western Civilization long before diversity became commonplace, and he denounced Platonic doctrines as an especially pernicious deviation from this ideal, preferring the pluralism of Thomas Aquinas.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP] Quigley said of himself that he was a conservative defending the liberal tradition of the West. He was an early and fierce critic of the Vietnam War,[SUP][citation needed][/SUP] and he was against the activities of the military-industrial complex.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]
Quigley retired from Georgetown in June 1976 and died the following year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_Quigley
I don't think you can dismiss this guy as 'clueless'
In my next post I'll post some info about him from wikipedia
What i'm trying to get across is that the same forces have been driving it for a while now. they have always had the same agenda. I'll post more in my next post about this group
Japan was the first country to try 'quantitative easing' it has been a failure and should serve as a warning to any of us in the west who are willing to look outside the blinkered view of the corporate media that is simply seeking to create our perceptions of reality
They know that how you perceive reality determines how you then behave and how you behave then shapes our world; to this effect they are creating perceptions that are pro-corporation and which are encouraging people to hand away all their rights, powers and freedoms to a corporate elite; i think this is a very bad direction to go in
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muir
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I wish wikipedia had been around when i was younger; its so easy for people to find answers now with the internet....all they have to do is cast their net a little wider than the corporate media and there is a whole new world to discover
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_Quigley
In his book The Anglo-American Establishment: From Rhodes to Cliveden, written in 1949 but published posthumously in 1981, Quigley purports to trace the history of a secret society founded in 1891 by Cecil Rhodes and Alfred Milner. The society consisted of an inner circle ("The Society of the Elect") and an outer circle ("The Association of Helpers").[SUP][5][/SUP][SUP]:ix, 3[/SUP] The society as a whole does not have a fixed name:
In 1966, Quigley published a one-volume history of the twentieth century entitled Tragedy And Hope. At several points in this book, the history of the Milner group is discussed. Moreover, Quigley states that he has recently been in direct contact with this organization, whose nature he contrasts to right-wing claims of a communist conspiracy:
In addition, other secret societies are briefly discussed in Tragedy and Hope, including a consortium of the leaders of the central banks of several countries, who formed the Bank for International Settlements.[SUP][6][/SUP][SUP]:323-324[/SUP]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_Quigley
In his book The Anglo-American Establishment: From Rhodes to Cliveden, written in 1949 but published posthumously in 1981, Quigley purports to trace the history of a secret society founded in 1891 by Cecil Rhodes and Alfred Milner. The society consisted of an inner circle ("The Society of the Elect") and an outer circle ("The Association of Helpers").[SUP][5][/SUP][SUP]:ix, 3[/SUP] The society as a whole does not have a fixed name:
This society has been known at various times as Milner's Kindergarten, as the Round Table Group, as the Rhodes crowd, as The Times crowd, as the All Souls group, and as the Cliveden set. ... I have chosen to call it the Milner group. Those persons who have used the other terms, or heard them used, have not generally been aware that all these various terms referred to the same Group. It is not easy for an outsider to write the history of a secret group of this kind, but, since no insider is going to do it, an outsider must attempt it. It should be done, for this Group is, as I shall show, one of the most important historical facts of the twentieth century.[SUP][5][/SUP][SUP]:ix[/SUP]
Quigley assigns this group primary or exclusive credit for several historical events: the Jameson Raid, the Second Boer War, the founding of the Union of South Africa, the replacement of the British Empire with the Commonwealth of Nations, and a number of Britain's foreign policy decisions in the twentieth century.[SUP][5][/SUP][SUP]:5[/SUP]
In 1966, Quigley published a one-volume history of the twentieth century entitled Tragedy And Hope. At several points in this book, the history of the Milner group is discussed. Moreover, Quigley states that he has recently been in direct contact with this organization, whose nature he contrasts to right-wing claims of a communist conspiracy:
This radical Right fairy tale, which is now an accepted folk myth in many groups in America, pictured the recent history of the United States, in regard to domestic reform and in foreign affairs, as a well-organized plot by extreme Left-wing elements.... This myth, like all fables, does in fact have a modicum of truth. There does exist, and has existed for a generation, an international Anglophile network which operates, to some extent, in the way the Radical right believes the Communists act. In fact, this network, which we may identify as the Round Table Groups, has no aversion to cooperating with the Communists, or any other group, and frequently does so. I know of the operation of this network because I have studied it for twenty years and was permitted for two years, in the early 1960s, to examine its papers and secret records. I have no aversion to it or to most of its aims and have, for much of my life, been close to it and to many of its instruments. I have objected, both in the past and recently, to a few of its policies... but in general my chief difference of opinion is that it wishes to remain unknown, and I believe its role in history is significant enough to be known.[SUP][6][/SUP][SUP]:949-950[/SUP]
According to Quigley, the leaders of this group were Cecil Rhodes and Alfred Milner from 1891 until Rhodes' death in 1902, Milner alone until his own death in 1925, Lionel Curtis from 1925 to 1955, Robert H. (Baron) Brand from 1955 to 1963, and Adam D. Marris from 1963 until the time Quigley wrote his book. This organization also functioned through certain loosely affiliated "front groups", including the Royal Institute of International Affairs, the Institute of Pacific Relations, and the Council on Foreign Relations.[SUP][6][/SUP][SUP]:132, 950-952[/SUP]
In addition, other secret societies are briefly discussed in Tragedy and Hope, including a consortium of the leaders of the central banks of several countries, who formed the Bank for International Settlements.[SUP][6][/SUP][SUP]:323-324[/SUP]
Apone
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[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]
You're jumbling quotes from the 19th and early 20th century with quotes from the 50s as well as personal opinions and what are basically just descriptions of situations that are still only hypothetical. You're still taking quotes out of context (refusing to actually provide a context for the quotes-- no time frames, no book titles, no article titles, no 'in reference to', etc.). You're taking quotes that basically amount to 'we're going to try our best to convince people that this is a good idea' (as if we're not currently trying to convince each other of anything) as if they're evidence of some sort of hideous evil plot to take over the world, as if these ideas received unanimous support by all politicians, as if minds were never changed or ideas abandoned, as if people would fully understand the government even if it were completely transparent, as if nobody ever misinterprets quotes because they didn't fully understand them, as if people in general aren't paranoid and mistrustful of authority no matter who or what it is.
You're using the word 'secret societies' over and over because we all know that anything that is secret is always going to be dangerous and scary. My father was also a freemason-- he was actually a grand master of the lodge for a year or so. Is he part of it too??? Have you ever actually been to a lodge meeting?
Of course politicians are going to belong to social clubs-- networking is key in politics… basically, it's a chance to socialize with people outside of your workplace.
And at least one of those quotes dates back to the time when the British Empire was the dominant power in the world, and America was a brand new nation that was only beginning to dabble in Imperialism. One of the quotes in the video you've quoted is actually from an American Libertarian (in the American sense of the word) whose primary fear is that his rich buddies will lose their monopoly on the world's wealth to the government. Fringe groups tend to use more flamboyant rhetoric that appeals to emotion in order to secure support and funding-- mostly because they can't charm the more rational crowd, who would only roll their eyes at it all.
You can probably post jumbled quotes and videos like that all day long-- the Internet is full of them. And the reason that the Internet is full of them is because they're simpler, sexier and more exciting than reading in-depth, focused articles that actually explain more about what's really going on. I'm not going to deny that there have been some highly questionable tactics used by governments or that the corporations have an interest in growth that can be extremely shortsighted and disrespectful of their consumer base… but has it all been a plot to oppress everyone and turn us back into a feudal society of mindless zombies? NO. We've already had feudalism… everyone knows that this is better. If they don't know that, then they won't be successful.
But it makes sense that Africa be regarded as the final frontier for consumerism-- do you think we should just allow all of the genocide and murder? Let's say I agree that we are the sole cause of it-- how would you fix that situation, exactly? Do you think that if we just left them alone, that China would help them? Do you think that they would all just drop their guns, stop fighting for power and say 'now that whitey's gone, we can all be friends!' cue sunrise, cue rainbow, cue fluffy bunnies and lions and zebra all living together in harmony? Obviously you think that America should stay out-- what exactly do you think would be best for the less stable parts of Africa at this point? Oh wait, I know-- anarcho communism! Yep, as soon as you remove the capitalism that they don't even have from the mix they'll just drop all of the tribal/ethnic divisions and get along. And hey-- it will be easy since for the most part they've already nailed the 'anarchy' (well, unless they're experiencing dictator #457897975 that week).
You're jumbling quotes from the 19th and early 20th century with quotes from the 50s as well as personal opinions and what are basically just descriptions of situations that are still only hypothetical. You're still taking quotes out of context (refusing to actually provide a context for the quotes-- no time frames, no book titles, no article titles, no 'in reference to', etc.). You're taking quotes that basically amount to 'we're going to try our best to convince people that this is a good idea' (as if we're not currently trying to convince each other of anything) as if they're evidence of some sort of hideous evil plot to take over the world, as if these ideas received unanimous support by all politicians, as if minds were never changed or ideas abandoned, as if people would fully understand the government even if it were completely transparent, as if nobody ever misinterprets quotes because they didn't fully understand them, as if people in general aren't paranoid and mistrustful of authority no matter who or what it is.
You're using the word 'secret societies' over and over because we all know that anything that is secret is always going to be dangerous and scary. My father was also a freemason-- he was actually a grand master of the lodge for a year or so. Is he part of it too??? Have you ever actually been to a lodge meeting?
Of course politicians are going to belong to social clubs-- networking is key in politics… basically, it's a chance to socialize with people outside of your workplace.
And at least one of those quotes dates back to the time when the British Empire was the dominant power in the world, and America was a brand new nation that was only beginning to dabble in Imperialism. One of the quotes in the video you've quoted is actually from an American Libertarian (in the American sense of the word) whose primary fear is that his rich buddies will lose their monopoly on the world's wealth to the government. Fringe groups tend to use more flamboyant rhetoric that appeals to emotion in order to secure support and funding-- mostly because they can't charm the more rational crowd, who would only roll their eyes at it all.
You can probably post jumbled quotes and videos like that all day long-- the Internet is full of them. And the reason that the Internet is full of them is because they're simpler, sexier and more exciting than reading in-depth, focused articles that actually explain more about what's really going on. I'm not going to deny that there have been some highly questionable tactics used by governments or that the corporations have an interest in growth that can be extremely shortsighted and disrespectful of their consumer base… but has it all been a plot to oppress everyone and turn us back into a feudal society of mindless zombies? NO. We've already had feudalism… everyone knows that this is better. If they don't know that, then they won't be successful.
But it makes sense that Africa be regarded as the final frontier for consumerism-- do you think we should just allow all of the genocide and murder? Let's say I agree that we are the sole cause of it-- how would you fix that situation, exactly? Do you think that if we just left them alone, that China would help them? Do you think that they would all just drop their guns, stop fighting for power and say 'now that whitey's gone, we can all be friends!' cue sunrise, cue rainbow, cue fluffy bunnies and lions and zebra all living together in harmony? Obviously you think that America should stay out-- what exactly do you think would be best for the less stable parts of Africa at this point? Oh wait, I know-- anarcho communism! Yep, as soon as you remove the capitalism that they don't even have from the mix they'll just drop all of the tribal/ethnic divisions and get along. And hey-- it will be easy since for the most part they've already nailed the 'anarchy' (well, unless they're experiencing dictator #457897975 that week).
muir
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As i've already explained to you this group has been operating over several generations. Dynastys such as the Rothschilds have been immensly influential for over 200 years
Try telling any historian that quotes from historical figures are inadmissable as evidence and they will laugh you out of the room
The truth is right there staring you in the face; its not hypothetical it is documented in their own literature; if you want to check these quotes then GO DO IT!
I did provide sources when i posted these quotes previously. You have the power of the internet at your finger tips here Apone why not type one of these quotes into a search engine and see what you find.....i'm sure thats not too taxing an exercise
They are evidence of a cabal of international investors/bankers who seek to create a one world government...yes
Not all politicians support it. Even in the clip i posted above Ron paul opposes it as well as another senator. I have also posted clips of congressmean larry macDonald and other politicians speaking out against it including presidents!!
Why 'secret societies' are a problem is because they are untransparent and unaccountable when we are supposed to be living in a free and open democracy
Concerning your father he might have no idea of the agenda of the cabal; it operates like this:
It is a hierarchical, male dominated pyramidal structure where people have to progress through 'degrees'. With each degree they must learn certain information and then voice their views on what it means to their fellow lodge members. This is a vetting process to decide the suitability of a candidate. The people at the top of the pyramid are the only people with the inner secrets of the order. They are the ones steering the ship and everyone else follows their directives. People in the lower degrees have no idea about the esoteric knowledge that is imparted in the higher degrees and they have no idea about the agenda of the organisation as a whole. They have to climb the ladder, proving that they are trustworthy and obedient to the will of the grandmaster
If you are a good little boy and do what you are told then you will progress. 'Obedience' was enshrined in the Templars 'rule'
So your dad might have no idea about the upper degrees for example qabalah and he might have no idea about the agenda of the organisation which is to centralise power. He might believe the propaganda about the aim being to build your own spiritual temple, but in reality how can you build your own spiritual temple when you are following the instructions of others and aren't promoted unless you are making the right noises in the lodge meetings?
Many people join to furtehr their own business interests, but the order itself knows what its members do and if it ever needs to call on a member to use their influence in a situation it will and through that means it can make a lot of things happen unseen within the public sphere. The individualcalled on to perform a function for the order may be completely unaware of what part their individual action is playing in the wider scheme of things....they are simply pawns in the games of powerful men
The truth is that the individual practitioner operating on their own to build their own spiritual temple and a relationship with the divine is far more of a mason then any one registered in a lodge
there are two opposing forces in the world: there are those that wish to centralsie power and there are those that wish to de-centralise power. History tells us that whenever power is centralised and moved away from the individual there follows corruption and exploitation (think of all the dictators of history). These are vitally important lessons from history and we ignore them at our peril.
Freemasonry as an order is controlled centrally and wishes to further its influence....it is part of the centralisation current and your dad, whether he is conscious of this or not by paying his dues is helping to fund this process
They do this to entrench the divison between the workers and the capitalist class
[FONT=&]We either believe that we should have a say in the running of our communities and wider countries or we believe we should give up all responsiblity to central control and just hope that they will treat us kindly (when history says they won't)
It all boils down to how transparent do we want power to be
[/FONT]
The cabal doesn't recognise nations. It operates across borders through secret societies, corporations and the central banking system. The European bankers behind the British empire are the same families behind American (US) imperialism
I posted a quote by Prof Carroll Quigley that explains the right wing myth which calls these bankers 'communists'. Yes the so called 'libertarians' incorrectly call them 'communists' and yes a fear of something called 'communism' has been programmed into the american psyche due to all the 'red scare' propaganda by the corporate powers so yes it is very highly charged language, but the task for discearning people like you and me who are tryin to pick our way through all this is to understand what they are talking about
As Qugley explains the cabal are not communists but they do work with communists when it suits them to do so. The word 'communism' is abused out of all recognition by the US corporate media in their attempt to create an outside bogeyman. True communism is DE-CENTRALISED where the workers are empowered. The form of government the corporate media attaches the word 'communism' to is a centralised dictatorship that controls centrally a planned economy. This centrally controlled form of government is exactly what the cabal want which is why the US 'libertarians' equate their aims for world government to 'communism'
In fact it suits the so called libertarians to misscall it communism because their agenda is to create an anarcho-capitalist system and they want to hide from people the option of true communism
So this is why i find myself in the bizarre situation of quoting from so called 'libertarians' because even though i disagree with their vision i DO agree with their distaste for centralised power. I also want to see de-centralised power but the system i would like to see is anarcho-communism (there's that scary word 'communism' again!)
In fact to this degree i even have something in common with the cabal in that i don't believe the dissolving of national borders is a bad thing, i just don't want to see it replaced with a centralised power i want to see a global community develop where people run their own communities from the bottom up (not dictated to from the top down)
The reality of that is that if you post long in depth articles on a chat forum not many people will listen to you, but if you post a quote by benjamin franklin explaining that the true cause of the American revolution was to throw off the international bankers then more people will take notice and then hopefully seek out more indepth information (and i have posted articles and links to articles as well!!)
We broke out of fuedalism because of the rise of a merchant class who became wealthy and more influential; these then got organised and challenged the aristocracy who then had to begrudgingly share power with the merchants.
Now we have this new elite seeking to destroy the middle class (low interest rates are destroying middle class savings)....have you noticed the gap widening between the top 1% and the rest of us? They wish to create a two tier system where they have access to all the best that the world can offer while the rest of us are bound to stifling work conditions
This rise of merchant class saw the creation of a bourgeoisie who got fat off the sweat of the workers who were working in horrific conditions in the industrial revolution, not to mention the use of slaves all around the world in various colonys; there are cities here in my country built on the wealth of the sugar trade which came through the blood, sweat and tears of millions of africans and asians......are all the fine clothes and architectural decorations worth the suffering of all those people, not to mention how it poisons the soul of my country to have been a part of that crime?
Then the workers who were being exploited got organised and they formed bodies like trade unions and friendly societies and cooperatives and they began to challenge the bourgeoisie. By unifying and acting as one voice they were able to demand better pay, better health and safety conditions, better healthcare and an education for their children so that they might have a chance to rise above the hardships of the factory floor or the tilled field
They began to organise into political parties and groups but the secret society network of the elites sought to infiltrate and misslead these groups. I'll talk about one such plot in my next post but first another event played a role in taking the wind out of the sails of the working persons movement: world war 1.
WWI saw an entire generation of european working men bled dry. This was followed soon after WWII which did the same again. Even after the working people had taken this double blow they still worried the government enough for the government to create in the UK a national health service (NHS) although some would argue this was actually done because the elite were shocked at the poor health of their conscripted soldiery coming out of the industrial towns and cities and to ensure a better supply of soldiers for the future; but they also improved housing under the 'homes for heroes' scheme and a political party called the 'Labour' party gained power
The 'labour' party claims to be a working mans party and recieves financial support from the trade unions but the philosophical engine room of the party is the fabian society who are part of the secret society network; many people in Britain can't understand why the labour party have allowed tax cuts for the super rich or why they have increased the lower tax band to tax the lower earners more....but its no mystery to me...they are not what they claim to be (in truth they are just another wing of the business party....they are the left wing gatekeepers and the 'Conservative' (Tory) party are the right wing gatekeepers....much like the democrats and the republicans in the US)
So because society has always been unbalanced there have been constant revolutions as the people at the bottom of the heap ('shit always rolls downhill') get sick and tired of being downtrodden, rise up and demand a better deal.
What i'm saying is that process needs to continue until everyone is in the loop....until everyone has quality of life and a say in the decision making process. As always throughout history the elite are trying to resist this rise of the workers....the workers need to become more empowered to get a seat at the top table and the job of the elites (in their eyes) is to keep the workers dissempowered so that they can't get a seat at the top table
The solution the elites have come up with to deal with the empowerment of the workers (becoming more and more self aware due to things like the internet....see all the recent occupy protests, industrial strike actions and other grass roots movements expressing themselves recently) is to try and create a new system where they will still be in control but the workers will be so tightly controlled that resistance will be virtually impossible
This they can attempt through creating a surveillance society that can spot and squash dissent before it grows, they can make people dependent on the corporations for everything (most crucially food) and they can control the flow of money not just the printing of it but the use of it by people electronically either through all money transactions being carried out through cards (which can be controlled and cut off centrally) or through RF microchips inserted under the skin of people which can also be switched off if a person dissents
This process of antagonism between the workers and those that live off their investments (ie live off the sweat, blood and tears of the workers) has gone on throughout history and is still going on today. I am saying the workers need more freedom, more quality of life, more autonomy, more say in the running of their communities and the elite (who have had to give some ground usually in the form of comforts to pacify the workers) are seeking to combat this by ever more dictatorial powers
It is the corporate dominated west that is fuelling all the violence....the solution they are offering to this problem they themselves are creating is to go in there and carry out some genocide and murder of their own! Of course they want to do this because random destablisation is good to keep people weak but now they have more specific goals and must send in their military to be more precise in their aims
I think that there are attempts afoot to help Africa. In fact ghaddafi had a plan to create an African bank to fund development in Africa....he had the money ready to do it and everything
The west goes in with the bomb and bullet (because our elite are essentially rascist as the quotes i've posted should show) but the chinese have gone in with money....they are investing heavily in Africa and have built all sorts of infrastructure....if i was african i know which group i would want to do business with
One of the aims of neoliberalism is to stop countries diversifying ie to get them to produce one key crop....this then makes them vulnerable to the market place (price fluctuations) and more easily controlled by the central bankers and corporate control system
The cabal have a history of ripping off african countries a prime example would be Ghana. here's a clip of Adam Curtis film 'Pandoras Box' about how the west helped scupper the plans of Kwame Nkruma:
[video=youtube;UXFM-j9mZCk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXFM-j9mZCk[/video]
I think we should acknowledge the damage we have caused there through our interference
I think we need to take care of our own business and by that i mean we need to reform our system. Anarcho-communism might not be the next step. The next step needs to be to halt the centralisation of power however and to bolster democracy. This means tackling the cabal of bankers and taking away their ability to print money. We also need to get rid of all tax havens so the cabal can't run with their money; this will of course require coordination across countries which can't happen whilst the cabal holds the levers of power in each of those countries
This means that change is going to have to come from the grass roots. People are going to need to reject every organisation and instrument of the cabal. We need to reject their political parties, we need to reject their wars, we need to reject their banks, we need to reject their corporations and their products, we need to rejects their reforms of our laws, we need to reject their GM food, we need to reject their media, we need to reject their secret societies, we need to reject their contracts and their debt, we need to reject their authority etc
We need to encourage de-centralisation for example permaculture, peer to peer lending, mesh internet and encryption of the internet (to prtect the flow of information), use independent media, support localll produced goods made by local suppliers (not the big corporations) etc (see alternatives to capitalism thread for more examples)
Sure all this might be looking very unlikely at the moment because awareness is not at a critical mass yet and people have become very dependent on the corporations but the economic climate is going to worsen and the hardship this will bring to people can provide fertile ground for new perceptions to develop as they begin to question the old order
We need to get to grips with the secret societies for example a british politican Jack Straw changed the law recently so that law judges don't have to declare that they are freemasons! That sort of thing needs to be undone
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Apone
Permanent Fixture
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Your favorite thing in the world, centralization was actually one of the things that ended feudalism-- feudalism is a decentralized system with a weak ruler and territory that is controlled by mob bosses (lords)… which is one of the reasons I don't think that your anarcho-communist model could ever possibly remain stable. There would be competition over resources and raw materials and without land ownership or a central authority to mitigate disputes, it would be easier to have private armies (knights). The knights were ultimately answerable to the king, but only during times of war-- the rest of the time they were basically mob enforcers that terrorized villages for 'protection' and eventually expanded their lord's property through violent force.
You seem to have a vision of history where the 'elites' are always going to brilliantly and diabolically exploit the underclasses while not understanding the benefits of adjusting to problems that will inevitably arise from embracing untested methods of production/economic exchange. You think that it's easy to foresee these problems? That the future is bound to a single incredibly complex pattern that the elites have figured out through sheer evil brilliance?
Seriously, don't you think it would be easier to control people if you prevent suffering? If someone is suffering, they are far far more likely to resist because they have nothing to lose. You'll have to waste money on security, you'll lose productivity to rioting, disease and death, you'll have to train and retrain people to perform their duties. Added to this is the fact that modern society has grown so complex that it depends on a high degree of specialization, creativity and intellect in the work force-- NOT the brute strength that was required to be a drone in a factory doing a repetitive demeaning task. The west has a very high demand for skilled workers and a low demand for unskilled workers-- because manufacturing and industry is moving to the developing world to cut labor costs.
How could a class of people that are brilliant enough to mastermind a plan to enslave the human race be so utterly oblivious to this very obvious fact?
And no, I'm not supporting slavery-- but that's not what capitalism is. Maybe when Karl Marx wrote his Communist Manifesto in the 19th century that was true but things improved vastly since that time… you don't judge full blown adults by what they were like when they were a few years old. And for the most part, economies are becoming more mixed… there is actually a very clear move towards a socialist influence on the world… and considering that centralization is actually far more likely to produce a truly egalitarian society, I can't for the life of me figure out why you're so afraid of it.
It is interesting how you have framed the story of capitalism as one of the elites responding to problems and eventually recognizing the benefits of allowing workers better conditions, and yet somehow you assume that it's going to be different this time and it's not going to work and slavery and death and the end of the world. Seriously, look at what you typed out about capitalism up there and tell me that there haven't been some very positive compromises between the 'elites' and the workers… was this an anomaly?
Why do you refuse to apply that same pattern to Africa, even while we've already established that the corporations are stabilizing the region in order to to bring in capitalism? Why is it that the west was able to demand positive changes and improve their standard of living under capitalism but Africa won't be? Why do you assume that the Americans are looking to hurt and destroy and oppress when there's absolutely no profit to be had from it?
None of these things make any sense.
By the way, here's another Quigley quote for you, in reference to how his writings have been interpreted by your conspiracist buddies:
"Skousen's (a conspiracist writer) book is full of misrepresentations and factual errors. He claims that I have written of a conspiracy of the super-rich who are pro-Communist and wish to take over the world and that I'm a member of this group. But I never called it a conspiracy and don't regard it as such. I'm not an "insider" of these rich persons, although Skousen thinks so. I happen to know some of them and liked them, although I disagreed with some of the things they did before 1940."
AND:
"They thought Dr. Carroll Quigley proved everything. For example, they constantly misquote me to this effect: that Lord Milner (the dominant trustee of the Cecil Rhodes Trust and a heavy in the Round Table Group) helped finance the Bolsheviks. I have been through the greater part of Milner's private papers and have found no evidence to support that. Further, None Dare Call It Conspiracy insists that international bankers were a single bloc, were all powerful and remain so today. I, on the contrary, stated in my book that they were much divided, often fought among themselves, had great influence but not control of political life and were sharply reduced in power about 1931-1940, when they became less influential than monopolized industry."
Taken from the same wikipedia article that I'm assuming you got your quote from.
Again, you're taking right wing cold war anti-Communist paranoia out of context, neglecting important details (in this case the apparent breakup or decline of the group, which is pretty major), jumbling comments made by opposing sides together as if they form some sort of agreement, completely misinterpreting brief statements that have no context and mean something completely different when read in their original contexts, and then posting them after what I can only assume is 30 seconds spent scanning them for relevance. This is what conspiracists do-- remember this article?:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200909/field-guide-the-conspiracy-theorist-dark-minds
Cults do it too.
You seem to have a vision of history where the 'elites' are always going to brilliantly and diabolically exploit the underclasses while not understanding the benefits of adjusting to problems that will inevitably arise from embracing untested methods of production/economic exchange. You think that it's easy to foresee these problems? That the future is bound to a single incredibly complex pattern that the elites have figured out through sheer evil brilliance?
Seriously, don't you think it would be easier to control people if you prevent suffering? If someone is suffering, they are far far more likely to resist because they have nothing to lose. You'll have to waste money on security, you'll lose productivity to rioting, disease and death, you'll have to train and retrain people to perform their duties. Added to this is the fact that modern society has grown so complex that it depends on a high degree of specialization, creativity and intellect in the work force-- NOT the brute strength that was required to be a drone in a factory doing a repetitive demeaning task. The west has a very high demand for skilled workers and a low demand for unskilled workers-- because manufacturing and industry is moving to the developing world to cut labor costs.
How could a class of people that are brilliant enough to mastermind a plan to enslave the human race be so utterly oblivious to this very obvious fact?
And no, I'm not supporting slavery-- but that's not what capitalism is. Maybe when Karl Marx wrote his Communist Manifesto in the 19th century that was true but things improved vastly since that time… you don't judge full blown adults by what they were like when they were a few years old. And for the most part, economies are becoming more mixed… there is actually a very clear move towards a socialist influence on the world… and considering that centralization is actually far more likely to produce a truly egalitarian society, I can't for the life of me figure out why you're so afraid of it.
It is interesting how you have framed the story of capitalism as one of the elites responding to problems and eventually recognizing the benefits of allowing workers better conditions, and yet somehow you assume that it's going to be different this time and it's not going to work and slavery and death and the end of the world. Seriously, look at what you typed out about capitalism up there and tell me that there haven't been some very positive compromises between the 'elites' and the workers… was this an anomaly?
Why do you refuse to apply that same pattern to Africa, even while we've already established that the corporations are stabilizing the region in order to to bring in capitalism? Why is it that the west was able to demand positive changes and improve their standard of living under capitalism but Africa won't be? Why do you assume that the Americans are looking to hurt and destroy and oppress when there's absolutely no profit to be had from it?
None of these things make any sense.
By the way, here's another Quigley quote for you, in reference to how his writings have been interpreted by your conspiracist buddies:
"Skousen's (a conspiracist writer) book is full of misrepresentations and factual errors. He claims that I have written of a conspiracy of the super-rich who are pro-Communist and wish to take over the world and that I'm a member of this group. But I never called it a conspiracy and don't regard it as such. I'm not an "insider" of these rich persons, although Skousen thinks so. I happen to know some of them and liked them, although I disagreed with some of the things they did before 1940."
AND:
"They thought Dr. Carroll Quigley proved everything. For example, they constantly misquote me to this effect: that Lord Milner (the dominant trustee of the Cecil Rhodes Trust and a heavy in the Round Table Group) helped finance the Bolsheviks. I have been through the greater part of Milner's private papers and have found no evidence to support that. Further, None Dare Call It Conspiracy insists that international bankers were a single bloc, were all powerful and remain so today. I, on the contrary, stated in my book that they were much divided, often fought among themselves, had great influence but not control of political life and were sharply reduced in power about 1931-1940, when they became less influential than monopolized industry."
Taken from the same wikipedia article that I'm assuming you got your quote from.
Again, you're taking right wing cold war anti-Communist paranoia out of context, neglecting important details (in this case the apparent breakup or decline of the group, which is pretty major), jumbling comments made by opposing sides together as if they form some sort of agreement, completely misinterpreting brief statements that have no context and mean something completely different when read in their original contexts, and then posting them after what I can only assume is 30 seconds spent scanning them for relevance. This is what conspiracists do-- remember this article?:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200909/field-guide-the-conspiracy-theorist-dark-minds
Cults do it too.
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Apone
Permanent Fixture
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And so [MENTION=5090]Apone[/MENTION] and [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] take over the threadSeriously guys, if I look over the entire "Politics" section, every thread ends up being a posting competition between the two of you
Yeah, it's terrible.
I'm sorry.
I actually keep telling myself I'm not going to respond, but then I end up responding anyways.
I have no self-control.
MindYourHead
Courage doesn't always roar.
- MBTI
- INFJ
- Enneagram
- 4w5
I have to agree. As much as I have enjoyed the back and forth, (A lot of food for thought) it does get to be a bit old when most every thread heads down the same path.
- MBTI
- .
- Enneagram
- .
I wonder what they are really doing in Davos?
Still not buying it.
the super rich are super strange but this whole black magic thing, the secret order stretching back to the crusades, the intense homophobia. I do see the appeal especially as an INFJ. It is beautiful, sinister, complete and fully spiritualized neo-Platonicaly.
and ron paul was never a us senator.
Still not buying it.
the super rich are super strange but this whole black magic thing, the secret order stretching back to the crusades, the intense homophobia. I do see the appeal especially as an INFJ. It is beautiful, sinister, complete and fully spiritualized neo-Platonicaly.
and ron paul was never a us senator.
muir
Banned
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No it is a centralised system of power
The barons ruled districts centrally and were answerable to the king who acted as overlord (until magna carta limited the kings power). It is still an example of power being exercised from central authorities. The barons did intirgue amongst themselves but they were always united by their belief in protecting the privileged position of the upper class. They were all intermarried and had strong blood ties even across Europe
What ended, or at least forced it to change its appearance was the rise of a merchant class
The workers tried to rebel after the plague killed many people leaving them with greater value under the laws of scarcity. They rose up in the peasant revolt but the king (backed by the lords) tricked the people and killed the ringleaders
Its not my system and it is stable where it is being used
No its capitalism that competes over resources, anarchist communism sees resources as owned in common
They were (and still are) a bunch of bloodlines who ruled by violence and acknowledged the suzereignity of the king
Its the nature of a system where there is an elite that the elite will seek to remain the elite even if it comes at the expense of others
Anarchist communism is not untested
What i see is a cabal of families who are centralising their power with a view to creating a planned economy; why is that so hard to believe?
There is ample proof now of the power of the top 1%. i even posted the results recently of research by the charity oxfam that showed that the top richest 100 people in the world earned 280 billion dollars in 2012 which is enough to end global poverty 4 times over; now it seems to me that a system that won't then end global poverty is a sick system. Billions of people around the world would like to see that happen i'm sure, but the will of the top 100 richest people will not allow it
I've already mentioned that they have satiated the 'western' workers with comforts. They have made people comfortable with cheap credit and cheap white goods and technology from china bought through accruing debt. This was all a bubble that has now popped and the elites are enforcing austerity; they know that as they remove the comforts the people will get agitated so they are going to beef up the powers of the state to protect their authority
I think that people are given comforts but are not educated to be politically or economically literate; many people are even missusing words because the corporate media has misused them. People now think that celebrity gossip is news and that the american revolution was purely about taxes....they have been hoodwinked as badly as a freemasonic initiate
There's different forms of suffering. The most significant one is starvartion. the elites know that when food becomes a certain percentage of earnings there is always political agitation so they ensure people in the west can get cheap food (processed food of terrible quality) and will even give them food stamps to ensure they don't reach starvation in order to ensure the body is fed. But there is more to people than their bodies....there is their mind and their soul.
The mind is being fed on a diet of celebrity gossip, reality TV, sport, historically incorrect movies, computer games, pop music and many other distractions that don't teach people anything about what is going on (don't enable them to engage in the decision making of their community)
Peoples souls have been starved of nourishment in the material world created by the corporations which is why there is now a bit of a spiritual ressurgance as people seek a greater connection with this side of their being
I think that even though people are given enough food, they are often malnourished intellectually and spiritually and this has lead to widespread anxiety, which the system uses powerful drugs to dampen down....the amount of people who are medicated should be a big red flag to everyone saying that something is not right in our world
There is suffering but people are being told that their suffering is down to them....that there is something wrong with them....the system is not being implicated
No the workers are already running the economy. Look at the anarcho-communist community marinaleda in spain...it doesn't even need a police force (saving them lots of money)
In some areas but why couldn't people have specialized skills in an anarcho-communist system?
They're not oblivious, their corporations have benifited massivey by exploiting cheaper labour abroad. When the commonwealth ws formed by the milner group they continued exerting influence in those ex-colonies through the secret society network eg freemasons, rotary club, round table etc
They have been playing with the people of the world as if they are their playthings. By moving offshore they caused massed unemployment in the west which lead to all sorts of social problems. The welfare state was created to pay for the underclass that was formed due to this process and who pays for the welfare state? The taxpaying workers pay for it......do you think the super rich pay taxes? Dp you think the corporations pay taxes?
The workers pay for the welfare state. When there is a war, the corporations make money and the costs are paid for by the taxpayer as well as providing the soldiers who do the dirty work.
Thats how neoliberalism works...the rich make the profits, the workers shoulder the risk. For example look how the failed banks were balied out by the taxpayers. They were all for capitalism when theyw ere making money, but when it went wrong for them the taxpayers were robbed to pay for it (the debts should have just been written down to the ability to pay, but that would have meant the global investors would have to take a hit and the politicians are paid for by the global investors)
All the money is moving upwards in society causing a rot at the bottom of society. i know that there are now many US americans on food stamps. In the UK we are seeing quality drop across many fields as the money dissapears upwards. For example we have less soldiers now (5000 being made redundant at the moment and the money for schemes to help them get jobs in civy street are being axed) and in their place we have part time 'reservists'; we have less nurses and more 'nursing assistants', we have less teachers and more 'teaching assistants' we have less police officers and more 'community support officers'
All these moves are band aids to hide the fact that our economy is dying because all the money is being sucked upwards by parasitical bankers that don't create anything but simply extract interest off the real economy of production and consumption. The rot is setting in and i promise you it is going to become more apparent every year.
Bubbles expected to pop soon are the student loan bubble and the bond bubble
No centralisation will not create a more equal society it will create an elite who lord it over everyone else and who pass laws that constantly make them more powerful and more wealthy at the expense of the many
The 'socialist' influence you are talking about is a state socialist influence which means the bankers will control things centrally (David Rockefeller wrote his thesis at university on fabian socialism). this is not the socialism i would like to see which is libertarian socialism. An example of a state socialistic system is Nazi germany.
China is a country that has a centrally controlled planned economy. There is an elite that lives a life of luxury above the law whilst most people work under difficult conditions. Yes as an economy they have been ruthless is growing but at what cost to their people?
Its not that elites have recognised the benefits of allowing workers better conditions its that they are worried that the workers will rediscover the guillotine....now do you understand why compromises have grudgingly been given by the elites?
The compromises have come because the workers forced them. An example would be the civil rights movement where hundreds of thousands of people marched on washington. The 8 hour working day, health and safety at work, workers rights, these have all come becuase the workers have struggled for them.....they are not the product of capitalism they have happened despite capitalism because the human spirit has resisted the oppression of the elite at the top of the capitalist pyramid
We haven't established that i said the corporate powers have been destablising africa by flooding it with guns, backing dictators and by actual military interventions
I don't think the 'americans' are looking to do that i think the cabal that dominates them is, most americans are just going about their day
The workers of the west managed to get some concessions but all that is now being peeled back again
Hopefully they make more sense now
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muir
Banned
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Its because we are on the faultline that runs through this forum and which is running through our society, manifesting in many ways
One way of describing the faultline is to say that on one side are the forces of centralisation which are seeking to move the wealth into a smaller number of hands and the power with it and on the other side of the faultline are the forces of de-centralisation which are resisting the movement of wealth and power into the hands of a few
What inevitably ends up happening in each thread is that the faultline gets defined through whatever topic is being discussed
You can pick pretty much any news story at the moment and this faultline will be discearned because at the moment there is a political earthquake going on and the faultline is widening and becoming more and more distinguishable
muir
Banned
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What 'homophobia'?
I have nothing against gay people. As someone who leans towards libertarianism (real libertarianism not the way the word is used by the US corporate media) i believe that people can do whatever they want with their bodies as long as they are not hurting anyone else
I do think that sex is used as a method of domination though yes. Rape has always been a feature of war. In prisons the physically strong sometimes prey on the weaker even though they would say they are not homosexual
The sex element to the power dynamic can't be ignored if someone wants to look honestly at the full spectrum of human behaviour and how certain energies manifest in human society
The freemasons trace their lineage back way further back than the crusades.....ask one
Magick has been used by the elites since the dawn of civilisation. The freemasons might trace their initiation ceremonies back to those of ancient egypt and beyond. Magicians are mentioned in the bible and all the renaissance kings and queens of Europe had magicians in their courts. You think magicians just suddenly dissapeared one day in a puff of smoke?
The fall of constantinople saw an exodus of Greek speaking romans into Europe carrying many magickal documents with them. The hermetic sciences were behind the flowering that was the renaissance. Powerful families like the medicis hungrily collected magickal documents into libraries
Magick has always been there and always will be. The less conscious of it people are the more susceptible to it they are
[video=youtube;Gsun5J1jSSk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsun5J1jSSk[/video]
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muir
Banned
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Cool but if you post saying that the west will help africans by invading africa and stealing its resources, don't be suprised if i argue with you