Sithious
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An expert on nutrition, not an expert in medicine and health. Those are two different things
Obesity: A Health crisis or a moral one?
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An expert on nutrition, not an expert in medicine and health. Those are two different things
mallory knox
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are you a nutritionist?
even if you say yes, we have to agree there's a lot about the human body that the medicine doesn't fully understand and doesn't have one definite answer to.
we have only started to explore genes, if you look at it historically.
there's a great possibility that we could be misguided about a lot of our assumptions, that way I find important to follow and hear about all different theories and researches.
medicine and general assumption of what's healthy or not has been misguided so many times... does anyone remember a few years ago the general assumption was that eggs were really bad for you, now that has been totally discredited.
even if you say yes, we have to agree there's a lot about the human body that the medicine doesn't fully understand and doesn't have one definite answer to.
we have only started to explore genes, if you look at it historically.
there's a great possibility that we could be misguided about a lot of our assumptions, that way I find important to follow and hear about all different theories and researches.
medicine and general assumption of what's healthy or not has been misguided so many times... does anyone remember a few years ago the general assumption was that eggs were really bad for you, now that has been totally discredited.
arbygil
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Heh. Yeah, that's last year's picture, and there are other recent pics of me on this site. But I can carry more weight on my frame than other women can. I don't look obese, but the scale would say differently.
But gather 'round, children, it's story time. What? I said it's story time! Siddown and listen up.
Based on a true story.*
Once upon a time, in a faraway land (that's Ohio to you city folk) there was a 4-year old princess who lived with her Queen and King parents. This princess was taller than most children her age, but she was still considered "normal." Then one day, the King took the little princess to the family physician and asked an interesting question: "Is my child fat?" The family physician looked the princess up and down and shrugged. "She's pretty normal. Maybe a little heavier than a few children, but she's not outside of the normal range."
Well, the King freaked. He would not have a fat princess, not under his domain! So he put the little four-year-old princess on a fad diet of extreme low-carbs and low fats. And no matter how much the little princess cried, the King did not relent.
Time passed. The King and Queen went their separate ways and split their kingdom inequitably between one another. The little princess began visiting the King every summer while living with the Queen the rest of the year. Unfortunately, the King had impoverished the Queen, and the Queen had to make due by selling most of her kingdom and by relying on the goodness of her people to take care of herself and her little princess. So while the princess lived on "survival food" with the Queen, whenever she visited the King, the King would automatically put the princess on severe, famine-inducing diets that, over time, slowly destroyed her metabolism.
When the princess was of legal age she left for college and put herself on her own famine-inducing diets because she believed she was only worthy if she put herself on such things (and she didn't realize that honestly, she was fine the way she was). She studied and tried every new diet, every new plan, determined to be that elusive Size Six princess that the kingdoms adored.
Sadly, the smallest the princess ever became was that not-quite-there Size Eight princess, and that was only with extreme diet and extreme exercise that made her even more miserable.
But finally, at long last, the princess learned her lesson. It wasn't until the princess was much older before she discovered, hey. She was fine the way she was. She learned to be patient with herself and to enjoy herself where she was, and to eat healthy things. She still had weight issues, but she learned that if she felt healthy inside, she was healthy outside - regardless of what the magical changing scales said.
Today, the princess realizes although her metabolism is still horribly off, she's choosing to supplement her diet with thyroid helpful supplements. Which is helping her feel better and better every day.
Moral of the story: Not every body size and shape is created equal; some are forced that way. So don't judge until you know the full story. And just because I defend the heavy folk doesn't mean I is a heavy folk. But in this case, I say I is because the scale says so.
*Okay, so it's not based on a true story. It is a true story. The only "based" bit is that I'm not a princess, but I wish I were.
But gather 'round, children, it's story time. What? I said it's story time! Siddown and listen up.
Based on a true story.*
Once upon a time, in a faraway land (that's Ohio to you city folk) there was a 4-year old princess who lived with her Queen and King parents. This princess was taller than most children her age, but she was still considered "normal." Then one day, the King took the little princess to the family physician and asked an interesting question: "Is my child fat?" The family physician looked the princess up and down and shrugged. "She's pretty normal. Maybe a little heavier than a few children, but she's not outside of the normal range."
Well, the King freaked. He would not have a fat princess, not under his domain! So he put the little four-year-old princess on a fad diet of extreme low-carbs and low fats. And no matter how much the little princess cried, the King did not relent.
Time passed. The King and Queen went their separate ways and split their kingdom inequitably between one another. The little princess began visiting the King every summer while living with the Queen the rest of the year. Unfortunately, the King had impoverished the Queen, and the Queen had to make due by selling most of her kingdom and by relying on the goodness of her people to take care of herself and her little princess. So while the princess lived on "survival food" with the Queen, whenever she visited the King, the King would automatically put the princess on severe, famine-inducing diets that, over time, slowly destroyed her metabolism.
When the princess was of legal age she left for college and put herself on her own famine-inducing diets because she believed she was only worthy if she put herself on such things (and she didn't realize that honestly, she was fine the way she was). She studied and tried every new diet, every new plan, determined to be that elusive Size Six princess that the kingdoms adored.
Sadly, the smallest the princess ever became was that not-quite-there Size Eight princess, and that was only with extreme diet and extreme exercise that made her even more miserable.
But finally, at long last, the princess learned her lesson. It wasn't until the princess was much older before she discovered, hey. She was fine the way she was. She learned to be patient with herself and to enjoy herself where she was, and to eat healthy things. She still had weight issues, but she learned that if she felt healthy inside, she was healthy outside - regardless of what the magical changing scales said.
Today, the princess realizes although her metabolism is still horribly off, she's choosing to supplement her diet with thyroid helpful supplements. Which is helping her feel better and better every day.
Moral of the story: Not every body size and shape is created equal; some are forced that way. So don't judge until you know the full story. And just because I defend the heavy folk doesn't mean I is a heavy folk. But in this case, I say I is because the scale says so.
*Okay, so it's not based on a true story. It is a true story. The only "based" bit is that I'm not a princess, but I wish I were.
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arbygil
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Do you have some evidence to support that assertion?
mallory knox
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i read that slightly overweight people are the healthiest.
but i do not have a link right now on that.
but i do not have a link right now on that.
Quinlan
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090623133523.htm
I'm pretty sure a lot of other studies have come to that conclusion as well. It's called the obesity paradox, although it's really only a paradox if you think obesity is inherently wrong.
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Okay, so there are obese people who eat well and are active, but seriously, what percentage of obese people do they actually constitute? Does anyone know? I'm willing to bet that most obese people are obese because they have starbucks for breakfast, a Bigmac and Mcflurry washed down with a gigantic soda for lunch, and some other garbage for dinner, with icecream and cookies as snacks. Obviously, I'm exaggerating, but you see the point that people consume way too much carbs and sugars (WAY TOO MUCH HFCS) and not enough protein and good fat (i.e. vegetable oil, nuts). If you're an "obese" vegitarian who runs marathrons, you don't have to worry, but don't make the mistake in thinking that those kind of obese people are common. I wont believe it until I see evidence otherwise.
I believe that eating poorly results in obesity as well as health problems, so there is a correlation between being obese and health problems, but the real problem is eating poorly, particularly all the over-procesed junk that passes for food in this country (U.S.A.). Does anyone here honestly want to bet that if you were to go down to the nearest walmart and pick an obese person at random, that that person eats well?
I just don't see how this doesn't make sense. You are what you eat. If you eat massive amounts of junk food, which is caused by poor emotion-ridden eating habits, it is going to affect you. Genetics doesn't make you drink soda and eat donuts; that is a decision you make. Ugg.......
I do agree that obesity shouldn't be stigmatized, but I bet most of people who say that are hypocrites because if I were to bring up some other class related stigmatization, they will probably say those things are bad, divorce for example. Instead of viewing these issues through the lens of class bias, they need to be viewed in terms of the health of the people involved.
I believe that eating poorly results in obesity as well as health problems, so there is a correlation between being obese and health problems, but the real problem is eating poorly, particularly all the over-procesed junk that passes for food in this country (U.S.A.). Does anyone here honestly want to bet that if you were to go down to the nearest walmart and pick an obese person at random, that that person eats well?
I just don't see how this doesn't make sense. You are what you eat. If you eat massive amounts of junk food, which is caused by poor emotion-ridden eating habits, it is going to affect you. Genetics doesn't make you drink soda and eat donuts; that is a decision you make. Ugg.......
I do agree that obesity shouldn't be stigmatized, but I bet most of people who say that are hypocrites because if I were to bring up some other class related stigmatization, they will probably say those things are bad, divorce for example. Instead of viewing these issues through the lens of class bias, they need to be viewed in terms of the health of the people involved.
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I hate hearing the zounds excuses people use to justify not taking an active interest in their personal health and well being. Glands, government, carbs, gluten, Saturated fats, MSG, etc etc so on and so forth are NOT the problem.
The problem is laziness and ignorance.
We live in a culture of ease, no one has to walk a mile to get themselves fed anymore, no one has to grow their own food, no one has to do anything except drive up to a window and give money to someone.
People need to educate themselves on how caloric intake, and metabolism works and what healthy food is. Crying that the US government subsidizes corn is retarded. It doesn't justify people making the poor choice of consuming it all.
If you want to be healthy you need EXERCISE, DAILY. In addition to that you need to understand PORTION CONTROL. Once you have that down the most fat you can have would be a small spare tire around your mid section which can be EASILY fixed with the addition of learning about FOOD QUALITY. I could eat Big Macs every day if I wanted to and I wouldn't gain weight, why? because I run every night before I go to bed, I hike mountains on the weekends, I do active things in my free time. I don't watch TV much and I don't sit in front of a computer all day. Even if I did, I would still fit in regular exercise.
Obesity should be a moral issue, a personal issue. Not a governmental issue, I don't need the government to ban trans fats and twinkies, I dont eat them by my own choice. But I dont think it should be denied to me, I am not a child. I dont smoke and I rarely drink, those shouldnt be banned because they are bad for me either.
The problem is laziness and ignorance.
We live in a culture of ease, no one has to walk a mile to get themselves fed anymore, no one has to grow their own food, no one has to do anything except drive up to a window and give money to someone.
People need to educate themselves on how caloric intake, and metabolism works and what healthy food is. Crying that the US government subsidizes corn is retarded. It doesn't justify people making the poor choice of consuming it all.
If you want to be healthy you need EXERCISE, DAILY. In addition to that you need to understand PORTION CONTROL. Once you have that down the most fat you can have would be a small spare tire around your mid section which can be EASILY fixed with the addition of learning about FOOD QUALITY. I could eat Big Macs every day if I wanted to and I wouldn't gain weight, why? because I run every night before I go to bed, I hike mountains on the weekends, I do active things in my free time. I don't watch TV much and I don't sit in front of a computer all day. Even if I did, I would still fit in regular exercise.
Obesity should be a moral issue, a personal issue. Not a governmental issue, I don't need the government to ban trans fats and twinkies, I dont eat them by my own choice. But I dont think it should be denied to me, I am not a child. I dont smoke and I rarely drink, those shouldnt be banned because they are bad for me either.
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Exactly, there is NO SUCH THING as an obese person who eats healthy. Its not possible. You cannot gain weight unless you have an excess of caloric intake. And if that excess is coming from sugar ridden gluten based carbs in huge amounts you are not going to maintain a healthy body.
You can have a slow slow metabolism with gland issues, but you still wont gain weight if you are eating the proper foods and in the proper amounts. Slow metabolisms and glands are only a fraction of the problem. I have a seriously slow metabolism unlike my brothers. I will cheat on my healthy diet on occasion but if I make a week of it I gain weight quickly, whereas other people might not. That weight gain doesn't happen though when I stick to my regular diet which is based heavily on simple fibrous carbs, proteins, and water topped off with lots of physical activity.
S
Shai Gar
S
Shai Gar
ALL THIS.
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Assumptions like this are to blame for many people with serious metabolism problems having their "impossible" circumstances ignored by doctors.
There are people whose bodies react to diet and exercise in baffling ways. Instead of burning fat, the body can enter "starvation mode" and practically attempt to hibernate (severe narcolepsy) in order to conserve calories. There are people who will gain weight on 500 calories per day (while still feeling hungry all the time). Doctors, who are accustomed to people exaggerating their efforts, will usually disbelieve such stories, and send the patients home only with further prodding to "eat right and exercise more."
arbygil
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We're talking many things here, guys. I might be wrong, but I'm guessing that if you're saying, "all you have to do is eat right and exercise every day" then you've never had a weight problem to begin with. Which is great.
But if you do have a weight problem, then even if you do those things you might need extra help because your metabolism is seriously out of whack. That happens, too. I would say - and concede - that the biggest problem is diet. The second biggest is exercise. But I can show you two people doing the same two things in life, and one will gain weight and the other won't.
I'm not saying people aren't lazy or eating wrong foods. But it's just not easy to tell folks to "just do this and be like me." Food is a drug for some folks, and some folks are addicts. You have to reach the mind before the body can follow in those cases, and you can't just tell someone to do something; you have to wipe the brain's hard drive and start clean.
Man, I love this.
It's such a dichotomy. If I told someone to "just stop using the internet" if they were addicted to online porn, I think it'd be the same thing. Or, "just stop playing WoW" if they were wowheads. Not to make it easy, but if it was easy to lose weight, everyone would be the size they needed to be.
Meh. I'm done with this for now.
But if you do have a weight problem, then even if you do those things you might need extra help because your metabolism is seriously out of whack. That happens, too. I would say - and concede - that the biggest problem is diet. The second biggest is exercise. But I can show you two people doing the same two things in life, and one will gain weight and the other won't.
I'm not saying people aren't lazy or eating wrong foods. But it's just not easy to tell folks to "just do this and be like me." Food is a drug for some folks, and some folks are addicts. You have to reach the mind before the body can follow in those cases, and you can't just tell someone to do something; you have to wipe the brain's hard drive and start clean.
Man, I love this.
It's such a dichotomy. If I told someone to "just stop using the internet" if they were addicted to online porn, I think it'd be the same thing. Or, "just stop playing WoW" if they were wowheads. Not to make it easy, but if it was easy to lose weight, everyone would be the size they needed to be.
Meh. I'm done with this for now.
Quinlan
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So starvation is the solution? You know starvation is a form of torture right? Everyone has their breaking point, you can only administer self-torture for so long. I think it is terrible the assumptions we make about people's willpower, we don't know what these people go through unless we're in their shoes, most skinny people have yet to have their willpower tested in the same way.
Yes, but most can't keep it off for greater than 5 years, and if they do, they are statistical outliers (ie. completely irrelevant to anything), rare as hen's teeth.
So you concern is not with WHAT he say but HOW he says it, interesting...
Your personal experience is a sample size of one, and you're quite possibly an outlier. Have you maintained a weight well outside of your natural metabolic range for more than 5 years? Because that is the bar we set for obese people. In your case that would be either attempting to be very underweight or obese for more than 5 years? Have you acheived that yet?
The pursuit of healthiness and wellbeing is not futile but the pursuit of long term and sustainable weight reduction is futile for the vast majority of cases.
Not even try and do what? All this guy is asking for is a shift in goals, shifting the goal to health and wellbeing and away from weight loss. He promotes exercise and good eating! If you exercise often and eat well, all your measures of health will be good apart from BMI. I guess it boils down to if you believe fat people can be healthy, perhaps you don't but there is very little evidence for that belief.
Please provide evidence that supports that assertion. I have provided evidence of everyone having a natural weight range that your body will constantly battle to keep you in. For some people this is a naturally very high range.
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Prove someone can gain weight on 500 calories, that's not even enough to maintain a basic muscle structure and your lymph systems. I call BS.
If someone is becoming narcoleptic because their body is going into a starvation routine (highly doubtful never heard anything about this) then they need medication. NOT extra calories.
All i am seeing in this post is a justification for why people are obese and I don't buy it, sorry.
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Shai Gar
And yet everyone ignores my post about thin =/= healthy, or how healthy =/= obese.
I guess it's easier to live in ignorance if you don't have to worry about good logic.
I guess it's easier to live in ignorance if you don't have to worry about good logic.
mallory knox
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yes.
and also on the emotional issue, food can become addictive because it releases certain substances that make people feel good.
you see a better awareness when dealing with other drugs than just: stop doing it, stop being addicted.
it's not really that simple.
Quinlan
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I'm not sure, it would be a good study. It would be wrong of us to make assumptions without proper evidence.
Well actually you do have to worry, because that person carries a very obvious (and very much villified) stigma and face discrimination for something out of your control. That is definitely something to worry about.
I'm not interested in a sample size of one, a proper scientific study on the eating habits of the obese would be of more interest.
A lot of things don't make sense to us at first, that's why we have science to investigate things thoroughly, relying on personal experience, assumption and bias is the road to inaccuracy.
Please provide evidence to support this assertion.