Obungle says we need to get tough on Russian cyberattacks..

[Flavus Aquila]

Americans should care about this regardless of who won or lost. A foreign government manipulated the election of the United States by covert means. This fact alone deserves to be investigated.

Covert operations, favoring the home country are a given. I think the issue (which was a core election issue), is the failure to secure data. I doubt that there are any international laws prohibiting what Russia is accused of doing. However, I think the Democrats' aloof incompetence and indeed, probably illegal handling of electronic data is an issue.

Can you imagine what could have happened if neither Clinton's, nor Podesta's email scandals had broken, and she had been elected? China, Russia, Isis, and anyone else could have probably been served White House data on a platter, without anyone being the wiser.

I think it's almost ironic that if hacking had tipped the election, it would have been for the very reason Clinton's team was unquestionably unqualified: failure to secure secret data adequately and legally

 

[Eventhorizon]

I don't see anything in the news now that the electors have secured Trumps win. Nothing.
Which leads me to believe it was nothing more than a political move on liberals part.

 

[brightmoon]

Covert operations, favoring the home country are a given. I think the issue (which was a core election issue), is the failure to secure data. I doubt that there are any international laws prohibiting what Russia is accused of doing. However, I think the Democrats' aloof incompetence and indeed, probably illegal handling of electronic data is an issue.

Can you imagine what could have happened if neither Clinton's, nor Podesta's email scandals had broken, and she had been elected? China, Russia, Isis, and anyone else could have probably been served White House data on a platter, without anyone being the wiser.

I think it's almost ironic that if hacking had tipped the election, it would have been for the very reason Clinton's team was unquestionably unqualified: failure to secure secret data adequately and legally

This is just a response based on the Trump party line, more half-truths and plain obscurification. The lack of critical thinking in this response does not shock me, however, as many people now just accept whatever nonsense Trump puts out

There are no laws prohibiting hacking of private e-mail? You leave out the fact that the RNC was also hacked, but someone chose not to release those e-mails. Now Russia gets White House data served on a silver platter and who knows what information is contained in those e-mails.

Then you never fail to bring the so called illegal activities of Clinton. Your team has the power now. Time to put up or shut up, either prosecute her or drop the allegation. It's one or the other now--not both. The election is over and its time to make decisions now. The time for talking and making obscure and vague statements that mean everything and nothing at the same time is over!

 

[Flavus Aquila]

This is just a response based on the Trump party line, more half-truths and plain obscurification. The lack of critical thinking in this response does not shock me, however, as many people now just accept whatever nonsense Trump puts out

There are no laws prohibiting hacking of private e-mail? You leave out the fact that the RNC was also hacked, but someone chose not to release those e-mails. Now Russia gets White House data served on a silver platter and who knows what information is contained in those e-mails.

Then you never fail to bring the so called illegal activities of Clinton. Your team has the power now. Time to put up or shut up, either prosecute her or drop the allegation. It's one or the other now--not both. The election is over and its time to make decisions now. The time for talking and making obscure and vague statements that mean everything and nothing at the same time is over!

Trump is not my team. I'm an Australian citizen.

The quality I like about Trump is that he is a pragmatist and not an ideologue. My hope is that he is successful for several reasons: out of a benign attitude towards your country, which has been too obsessed with having "the right opinion"; out of the hope that government becomes less about politics/policy, and more about fundamental efficiency everywhere (Trump being the test-case); and out of a benign hope for him as a fellow man.

I agree that contention about election tit-for-tat is nonsensical; but I kind of enjoy displaying how untenable every screechy attempt to claim the moral/legitimacy high ground is.

Trump is the president elect, and even if Putin himself admitted to sending a hard disk to Julian Assange, it would make no PRACTICAL difference. The whole topic is of no practical use, except for those who determine cyber security protocols. Anything else is just some silly game, and absolutely deserving of being treated as such.

 

[brightmoon]

First of all its not "my country", I am a Canadian citizen. I am happy to live under a Liberal government that is rightly concerned with "doing the right thing"

The qualities I hate about Trump is his vagueness his lack of precision in his speech and policy positions. Trump is literally "all over the map" he stands for everything and nothing at the same time. I also do not like scapegoating of ethnic or religious groups based on ignorance. I don't care much for authoritarian or ideologies that resemble fascism. The hearkening back to a Romantic "golden age" is the hallmark of such an ideology, the phrase "Make America Great Again" sickens me to be honest. I want to see Trump fail so this fraudulent ideology will be seen for what it is and the developed world can move forward. What we are witnessing with Trump and Brexit is a small bump in the road, a pothole which we may be stuck in for a number of years, but we will get out of it. The people who voted for him will soon realize he can't or won't deliver on most of his promises. He is almost doomed to fail because he has no plan to succeed. He is appointing people who are doctrinaire Republicans and have no interest in changing the system whatsoever. You will see soon enough.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

First of all its not "my country", I am a Canadian citizen. I am happy to live under a Liberal government that is rightly concerned with "doing the right thing"

The qualities I hate about Trump is his vagueness his lack of precision in his speech and policy positions. Trump is literally "all over the map" he stands for everything and nothing at the same time. I also do not like scapegoating of ethnic or religious groups based on ignorance. I don't care much for authoritarian or ideologies that resemble fascism. The hearkening back to a Romantic "golden age" is the hallmark of such an ideology, the phrase "Make America Great Again" sickens me to be honest. I want to see Trump fail so this fraudulent ideology will be seen for what it is and the developed world can move forward. What we are witnessing with Trump and Brexit is a small bump in the road, a pothole which we may be stuck in for a number of years, but we will get out of it. The people who voted for him will soon realize he can't or won't deliver on most of his promises. He is almost doomed to fail because he has no plan to succeed. He is appointing people who are doctrinaire Republicans and have no interest in changing the system whatsoever. You will see soon enough.

People can't conceive of what government is supposed to be at its minimum.

Since the election, the Dow has risen 10% (that isn't a typo), and consumer confidence is at its highest since 2001.

Good minimal government is about keeping out of people's way, so they can hope to do what they want. Trump has already achieved more than Obama has in eight years, in terms of financial confidence... and he hasn't even been inaugurated yet.

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

Lol

LOL!!!

 

[brightmoon]

People can't conceive of what government is supposed to be at its minimum.

Since the election, the Dow has risen 10% (that isn't a typo), and consumer confidence is at its highest since 2001.

Good minimal government is about keeping out of people's way, so they can hope to do what they want. Trump has already achieved more than Obama has in eight years, in terms of financial confidence... and he hasn't even been inaugurated yet.

The robber barons think they rob more? Nothing but the confidence of confidence men, a symptom of our new gilded age. Trickle down economics isn't the solution, its the problem! Deregulation will lead to more bubbles like the one we experienced in 2008. The end product of lassez-faire capitalism is crony capitalism, the concentration of economic power in the hands of very few, multinational corporations that have the power to defy and control governments. In the end democracy itself is subverted and becomes nothing but a sham. The masses are fed on an endless diet of meritocracy, the idea that if I work hard enough I could be rich, maybe I can become a famous actor or athlete, the only that stops me from becoming a multimillionaire are my own foibles. The poor blame and are taught to blame each other for their poverty. We live under the shadow of endless corporate greed and everything is subservient to this end. Trump is the culmination of this ideology, a showman aristocrat with no plan, no vision, and no clue about how to run the United States. Very soon the time for talking will be an end and the people are going to demand results. There will be no excuses for not delivering no what was promised.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

The robber barons think they rob more? Nothing but the confidence of confidence men, a symptom of our new gilded age. Trickle down economics isn't the solution, its the problem! Deregulation will lead to more bubbles like the one we experienced in 2008. The end product of lassez-faire capitalism is crony capitalism, the concentration of economic power in the hands of very few, multinational corporations that have the power to defy and control governments. In the end democracy itself is subverted and becomes nothing but a sham. The masses are fed on an endless diet of meritocracy, the idea that if I work hard enough I could be rich, maybe I can become a famous actor or athlete, the only that stops me from becoming a multimillionaire are my own foibles. The poor blame and are taught to blame each other for their poverty. We live under the shadow of endless corporate greed and everything is subservient to this end. Trump is the culmination of this ideology, a showman aristocrat with no plan, no vision, and no clue about how to run the United States. Very soon the time for talking will be an end and the people are going to demand results. There will be no excuses for not delivering no what was promised.

Envy of the wealthy isn't a good foundation for policy. It's just plebeian rabble-rousing.

The only way you are going to get a good outcome for the average American is by increasing exports, producing goods that can compete in the domestic market, and reducing off-shore debt. All of that requires BIG corporations.

So stand outside a sky-scraper, angrily shaking your envious fist at it, dreaming of replacing it with a village market, if you must, but if you really wanted that, you would move to some Leftist South American country, and take up weaving alpaca sweaters

 

[brightmoon]

Leftist philosophy is not based on "plebeian rabble rousing" (I will coincide that you take your Roman meme rather seriously) as you put it or envy of the wealthy. It is proper that controls be put on the power that wealth generates for both individuals and corporations, what is not proper is to allow wealth to accumulate without controls. Anyway I did not talk about abolishing mulitnational corporations, only reducing their size and power. that is the proper role of government. Reducing the opposing argument to a straw man is not a clever tactic. Taking up your Roman meme you would do well to study rhetoric to gain greater variety in disputing the opposing position.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Leftist philosophy is not based on "plebeian rabble rousing" (I will coincide that you take your Roman meme rather seriously) as you put it or envy of the wealthy. It is proper that controls be put on the power that wealth generates for both individuals and corporations, what is not proper is to allow wealth to accumulate without controls. Anyway I did not talk about abolishing mulitnational corporations, only reducing their size and power. that is the proper role of government. Reducing the opposing argument to a straw man is not a clever tactic. Taking up your Roman meme you would do well to study rhetoric to gain greater variety in disputing the opposing position.

If you try to reduce the size and power of multinationals, they just buy/build a new tower in Hong Kong, London, etc. and move away. While that might not have a huge impact, or advantage to the federal government, the effect on cities and local governments is devastating: inner city land values fall, land tax revenue evaporates, and either services are cut/neglected, or everyone has to pay more local taxes.

I really cannot understand why anyone would agree to their local employers/property owners being driven out, for some minimal benefit to the federal government.

Just imagine the effect on a local city in terms of tradesmen, utility suppliers, office supply companies, hospitality/food industries, builders, the rental property, etc. when a multinational opens new headquarters.... now just reverse that local effect... And what for? So that the federal government can send aid to foreign dictatorships in the middle east?

Regulating multinationals only benefits two classes of people: politicians and the long-term unemployed.

 

[brightmoon]

If you try to reduce the size and power of multinationals, they just buy/build a new tower in Hong Kong, London, etc. and move away. While that might not have a huge impact, or advantage to the federal government, the effect on cities and local governments is devastating: inner city land values fall, land tax revenue evaporates, and either services are cut/neglected, or everyone has to pay more local taxes

You just don't get it I'm afraid. Everyone is paying more taxes at every level right now, except the very wealthy and the corporations. They reap the benefits of being able to do business in a safe and secure environment with a pliable and educated workforce. with infrastructure provided for them, but they don't want to pay for any of it. Take Trump for example, and lets assume he paid no or very little tax. That is a disgrace. He is allowed to spend his inheritance money freely because he has hired an army of accountants and lawyers to find loopholes. There should be no free rides, Regulation benefits the working people, takes the burden off them and allows decent schools, social programs and infrastructure.

People whine about about foreign aid. Its insignificant and represents less than 1% of GDP for most developed countries.

 

[acd]

It is a very persistent delusion in the US that the very wealthy will make the working class wealthier when they increase their own wealth. Clearly, it hasn't happened yet. And here we still are..

 

[Flavus Aquila]

You just don't get it I'm afraid. Everyone is paying more taxes at every level right now, except the very wealthy and the corporations. They reap the benefits of being able to do business in a safe and secure environment with a pliable and educated workforce. with infrastructure provided for them, but they don't want to pay for any of it. Take Trump for example, and lets assume he paid no or very little tax. That is a disgrace. He is allowed to spend his inheritance money freely because he has hired an army of accountants and lawyers to find loopholes. There should be no free rides, Regulation benefits the working people, takes the burden off them and allows decent schools, social programs and infrastructure.

People whine about about foreign aid. Its insignificant and represents less than 1% of GDP for most developed countries.

What is wrong with corporations avoiding federal tax and growing into behemoths?

As for Trump, he may have avoided paying federal taxes, but local taxes are all but impossible to avoid. He probably pays more tax to the city of New York through his properties, than almost any other individual.

You keep stating some facts about corporations as a type of criticism, but you haven't explained why you think those facts are a negative thing.

 

[brightmoon]

Simply because these corporations have undue political influence and power. They are manipulating the political system to suit their agenda, not the common good, and those two things are the same thing. It seems obvious why this not good for society as a whole.

You say Trump "probably" paid more local taxes than anyone else in NYC? This is speculation because of course he won't release his tax returns. The only we know for sure is what he stated about tax avoidance which mean there is something seriously broken in US tax law

 

[Flavus Aquila]

It is a very persistent delusion in the US that the very wealthy will make the working class wealthier when they increase their own wealth. Clearly, it hasn't happened yet. And here we still are..

What do you think could make the working class wealthier (realistically)?

I'm cynical that anything can actually help. Despite a meagre campaign against it, labor is a commodity in practice. American workers are competing with workers in virtually every country for production work. How can an American worker expect to get $25 for an hour's work, when workers in China are selling an equivalent hour's work for less than $5?

US wages can only realistically increase in three ways:
* You wait for the wages of the rest of the world to rise.
* You train workers to offer more specialised and technical labor, which isn't available elsewhere.
* You lower the cost of manufacturing to companies so significantly, that the higher worker wages are economically acceptable.

The government can only realistically provide incentives in the form of tax breaks for training and in reduced company taxes.

A fourth option is to impose tariffs on imports, but while this might stimulate local manufacturing, foreign retaliation will close down exports and nullify the positive effects.

I don't think workers can win unless companies are offered excellent incentives to produce in the US, and if the unemployment rate drops to the point that companies compete for workers by offering better pay and/or conditions.

Chasing employers out of the country isn't going to help anyone.

 

[Eventhorizon]

It is a very persistent delusion in the US that the very wealthy will make the working class wealthier when they increase their own wealth. Clearly, it hasn't happened yet. And here we still are..

Very clear delusion in the US when people think the people working their butts off are going to be fine with people not working their butts off getting the same things they are.

 

[acd]

I think maybe it's a long term solution of better educating people so that they can specialize in more things and be more competitive in job markets. Basically investing in people to be more productive through education and training for trades. Manufacturing jobs are never coming back. And corporations in the US are now paying way less taxes than they did 50-60 years ago.. you know, back in the good old days where you could raise a family working right out of high school. Things have only gotten worse for workers while more profitable for corporations. Wages stagnate but profits do not. If anything, tax payers are subsidizing their wealth. But God forbid you demand universal healthcare or affordable education with your tax dollars to be a more productive member of society and to invest in others without some one calling you a mooch.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Simply because these corporations have undue political influence and power. They are manipulating the political system to suit their agenda, not the common good, and those two things are the same thing. It seems obvious why this not good for society as a whole.

You say Trump "probably" paid more local taxes than anyone else in NYC? This is speculation because of course he won't release his tax returns. The only we know for sure is what he stated about tax avoidance which mean there is something seriously broken in US tax law

Tax returns are only relevant in terms of federal taxes. You can look up how much land tax he pays for each property in city land records. For example, if Trump Tower is assessed to be worth $1B he would be paying $7.2M in tax (NYC land taxes are 0.72%).

 

[Flavus Aquila]

I think maybe it's a long term solution of better educating people so that they can specialize in more things and be more competitive in job markets. Basically investing in education and training for trades. Manufacturing jobs are never coming back. And corporations in the US are now paying way less taxes than they did 50-60 years ago.. you know, back in the good old days where you could raise a family working right out of high school. Things have only gotten worse for workers while more profitable for corporations. If anything, tax payers are subsidizing their wealth. But God forbid you demand universal healthcare or affordable education to be a productive member of society without some one calling you a mooch.

More profitable = lower costs in production.

The government can make the domestic "business" more profitable for workers, by lowering their costs: Cheaper utilities, lower personal taxes, more competitive health care, ensuring there is a slight oversupply in rental accommodation, decentralized services, etc.