One day kill all Jews

@GracieRuth , I never oversimplify things unless I am trying to help someone. Most people will not put forth the time and energy to understand the answers to muir's questions, but I feel I understand better than most of our Senate and Congress; certainly not all of them. I have studied it many, many years. I visit one Israeli website several times every day, too, keeping up with what is going on. It is one I have learned to trust over the years. The situation is of the utmost importance to me. Assad has threatened attacking Israel with a missile flurry if anyone messes with Syria right now as he cracks down on the uprising against his regime. Israel! I have read Constantine's Sword twice and am reading it a third time s l o w l y. I have had a man visit my office when speaking in favor of Jewish people, only to let me know how many people hate Jews: himself included. I do what I can to help instill peace and understanding. However, I have a difficult time trying to talk with someone that refuses to do the homework. I offer a valid link on wiki and almost bet nobody read it all. It is not important to a lot of people, but I am in your corner.
 
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@GracieRuth , I never oversimplify things unless I am trying to help someone. Most people will not put forth the time and energy to understand the answers to muir's questions, but I feel I understand better than most of our Senate and Congress; certainly not all of them. I have studied it many, many years. I visit one Israeli website several times every day, too, keeping up with what is going on. It is one I have learned to trust over the years. The situation is of the utmost importance to me. Assad has threatened attacking Israel with a missile flurry if anyone messes with Syria right now as he cracks down on the uprising against his regime. Israel! I have read Constantine's Sword twice and am reading it a third time s l o w l y. I have had a man visit my office when speaking in favor of Jewish people, only to let me know how many people hate Jews: himself included. I do what I can to help instill peace and understanding. However, I have a difficult time trying to talk with someone that refuses to do the homework. I offer a valid link on wiki and almost bet nobody read it all. It is not important to a lot of people, but I am in your corner.

If you read an Israeli website it may give you a heavily biased opinion, which in turn will shape your perceptions of reality

The United States has a popular revolt occuring within it at the moment which has seen over 4000 arrests and violent oppression by the government, but you don't see Syria sailing a war fleet over to the US threatening to 'intervene' (violently overthrow the government) do you?

Syria can't reach the US with its missiles but it can reach Israel. It can't threaten to rain missiles on the US but it can threaten to rain missiles on Israel which it knows has a special relationship with the US

Imagine for a moment if Assad announced that he was sending a Syrian war fleet to come to the US to violently overthrow the US government in order to support the Occupy wallstreet and tea party protests and to promote democracy in the US.....what do you think the US would say to him?

Do you think they'd welcome him over or do you think they'd threaten to rain missiles on him?

I continue to maintain that no Israeli will ever be able to feel safe while there is conflict. The only way to promote safety therefore is to promote peace and that requires sincere negotiations and even concessions from both sides.

US citizens and Israeli citizens need to analyse the nature of the US/Israel relationship and ask themselves if it is bringing them safety?

If the answer to that question is no then perhaps it is time for a radical re-think on foreign policy and on how democracy should function
 
Hi Muir. Thank you for taking the time to ask thoughtful questions.

First, let's use the English language correctly. Although Arabs are also a Semitic people, the word "anti-semitism" refers explicitely to hatred of Jews.

Second, the world has MANY problems; I'm not myopic. But yes, the rise in antisemitism is one of them. Why do I think it is important for people to keep a thumb on this issue? As I stated in my previous post, it begins with the Jews but never ends there. Any rise in anti-semitism is going to be linked with persecution of other groups.

I'm sure most here have heard the famous poem by Martin Niemoeller:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

When I say it is no longer safe for a Jew to visit or live in Amsterdam or Sweden, I'm saying it is LITERALLY not safe, that the probability of being physically attacked is too high for comfort. Most of the attacks are by Islamic Fascists, BUT the liberal governments there turn a blind eye to it, and make excuses for it, instead of stamping it out. If you want links to information sources on this, I'll be happy to provide them for you. However, you can simply google "Jews Sweden Amsterdam" and find most of the information on your own.

You know, I didn't even list Los Angeles as a hot spot, but I've personally been singled out for harassment while walking down the street in the Pico Robertson area. I used to have a nice little apartment in Valley Village, but when two Jewish men were shot in the synagogue parking lot while walking in for morning prayers, that was the last straw -- I moved out of Los Angeles. Similarly, Jews are leaving places like Malmo, Amsterdam, and Budapest because its just too dangerous for us there.

I HAVE of course often asked myself why there is so much animosity towards the Jews, and I mean its been empire after empire that has targeted us throughout our history. I have concluded that the root of antisemitism is not racism, but anti-Judaism -- that in every generation, there is some teaching of Judaism that wrankles non-Jews. In the past it has been issues like monotheism, or circumcision, or the idea that G-d is not corporate (therefore cannot be Jesus). Presently some people are having difficulty with the idea of any particular nationality or ethnicity being set apart or significantly different in any way, the idea tha Israel is the Jewish homeland, (for Muslims) the notion that an ape-people could set up a country that is better than their nations under Sharia law, and (for leftists) the idea of having a RELIGIOUS democracy. Since the only way to eliminate anti-Judaism hatred is to leave Judaism, we are faced with the choice of either assimilating and losing our Jewish identity, or simply being willing to fight back. IOW, we are not going to fall into the trap of saying "Oh poor little victims that we are, what did we do to deserve being bullied?"

Why do I think there is a RISE in antisemitism? Because history tends to be cyclical, time tends to spiral. Tides rise and fall. Seasons go around. THERE IS NOING NEW UNDER THE SUN. The shock of the holocaust smacked a lot of complacent people into attention and antisemites had to keep their mouths shut for many decades; but the present generation feels the Shoah was long ago and far away and has no relevance to today. This is simply the way that history flows. I listen to Kim Jong il and Achmedinajad, and I see Stalin and Hitler, because I have studied history and know that it is relevant today, that the whole purpose of studying history is to learn the patterns and spot them in the present... but the average person thinks that history is just the study of a lot of insignificant dead white guys.

Time for a Tolkien quote:
Frodo: I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.
Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.
 
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just me:

Your wiki link was really really excellent, and yes I did read the whole thing, though I doubt many would. Thanks for the support.
 
[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION], the website is in the Library of Congress for several instances......
 
Hi Muir. Thank you for taking the time to ask thoughtful questions.

First, let's use the English language correctly. Although Arabs are also a Semitic people, the word "anti-semitism" refers explicitely to hatred of Jews.

Second, the world has MANY problems; I'm not myopic. But yes, the rise in antisemitism is one of them. Why do I think it is important for people to keep a thumb on this issue? As I stated in my previous post, it begins with the Jews but never ends there. Any rise in anti-semitism is going to be linked with persecution of other groups.

I'm sure most here have heard the famous poem by Martin Niemoeller:



When I say it is no longer safe for a Jew to visit or live in Amsterdam or Sweden, I'm saying it is LITERALLY not safe, that the probability of being physically attacked is too high for comfort. Most of the attacks are by Islamic Fascists, BUT the liberal governments there turn a blind eye to it, and make excuses for it, instead of stamping it out. If you want links to information sources on this, I'll be happy to provide them for you. However, you can simply google "Jews Sweden Amsterdam" and find most of the information on your own.

You know, I didn't even list Los Angeles as a hot spot, but I've personally been singled out for harassment while walking down the street in the Pico Robertson area. I used to have a nice little apartment in Valley Village, but when two Jewish men were shot in the synagogue parking lot while walking in for morning prayers, that was the last straw -- I moved out of Los Angeles. Similarly, Jews are leaving places like Malmo, Amsterdam, and Budapest because its just too dangerous for us there.

I HAVE of course often asked myself why there is so much animosity towards the Jews, and I mean its been empire after empire that has targeted us throughout our history. I have concluded that the root of antisemitism is not racism, but anti-Judaism -- that in every generation, there is some teaching of Judaism that wrankles non-Jews. In the past it has been issues like monotheism, or circumcision, or the idea that G-d is not corporate (therefore cannot be Jesus). Presently some people are having difficulty with the idea of any particular nationality or ethnicity being set apart or significantly different in any way, the idea tha Israel is the Jewish homeland, (for Muslims) the notion that an ape-people could set up a country that is better than their nations under Sharia law, and (for leftists) the idea of having a RELIGIOUS democracy. Since the only way to eliminate anti-Judaism hatred is to leave Judaism, we are faced with the choice of either assimilating and losing our Jewish identity, or simply being willing to fight back. IOW, we are not going to fall into the trap of saying "Oh poor little victims that we are, what did we do to deserve being bullied?"

Why do I think there is a RISE in antisemitism? Because history tends to be cyclical, time tends to spiral. Tides rise and fall. Seasons go around. THERE IS NOING NEW UNDER THE SUN. The shock of the holocaust smacked a lot of complacent people into attention and antisemites had to keep their mouths shut for many decades; but the present generation feels the Shoah was long ago and far away and has no relevance to today. This is simply the way that history flows. I listen to Kim Jong il and Achmedinajad, and I see Stalin and Hitler, because I have studied history and know that it is relevant today, that the whole purpose of studying history is to learn the patterns and spot them in the present... but the average person thinks that history is just the study of a lot of insignificant dead white guys.

Time for a Tolkien quote:
Frodo: I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.
Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.

From wikipedia:
The scapegoat was a goat that was designated (Hebrew לַעֲזָאזֵֽל ) la-aza'zeyl; either "for absolute removal" (Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon) or possibly "for Azazel" (some modern versions taking the term as a name) and outcast in the desert as part of the ceremonies of the Day of Atonement, that began during the Exodus with the original Tabernacle and continued through the times of the temples in Jerusalem.

Throughout the year and on the Day of Atonement, the record of all the sins of the Israelites was transferred to the Tabernacle by the blood of the sacrifices. On the Day of Atonement, the tabernacle was cleansed of all the accumulated sins by the ritual described in Leviticus 16. At that time the high priest confesses the accumulated sins of the Children of Israel to the scapegoat which is then sent into the desert wilderness. The Tabernacle and the Children of Israel were thus cleansed of sin.

This has been interpreted to be a prefigure of the final judgment by which sin is removed forever from the universe. Through the sacrifice of Jesus, the sins of the believers are forgiven them, but the fact that sins were committed still exist on record in the "Books" of heaven (see Revelation 20:12). After the final judgment, the responsibility for all those forgiven sins are accredited to the originator of sin, Satan. After which, Satan is destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Sin no longer will exist anywhere.

Since this goat is sent away to perish, the word "scapegoat" has come to mean a person who is blamed and punished for the sins, crimes or sufferings of others, generally as a way of distracting attention from the real causes. The story of the scapegoat in Leviticus has also been interpreted as a symbolic prefigure of the self-sacrifice of Jesus, who takes the sins of humanity on his own head, having been crucified on a cross outside the city by order of the Roman prefect Pontius Pilate, after pressure from the Jewish leaders.
 
@muir , the website is in the Library of Congress for several instances......

So what man, is that supposed to suggest that the website won't have a heavy pro-expansionist Israel bias?

Do you know what other organisations are also in the US that supposedly represent the interests of jews? From a quick search on wikipedia, here's just some of them:

 
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muir:

Your reasons for replying with the wiki about the scapegoat elude me.
 
copied from muir
"I maintain that the best way for Israeli jews to make themselves safe is to bring peace to the middle east....why is that not the focus of the discussion?"

The subject goes back many hundreds of years. It exists outside of the Middle East. It is a mindset taught around the globe in many places. The OP stated the focus of the thread, not you; why is that not the focus of this discussion?
 
muir:

Your reasons for replying with the wiki about the scapegoat elude me.

That wasn't me that was Matt; i didn't say anything about scapegoats
 
That wasn't me that was Matt; i didn't say anything about scapegoats

[MENTION=4576]GracieRuth[/MENTION]

I thought you might be interested in the origins and social implications of scapegoating considering how closely it's tied into Jewish tradition and history. It seemed relevant to the content of your post. It just seems to me to be an inborn human characteristic that was recognized early in human history. The Greeks also had similar rituals, such as the pharmakos and ostracism.
 
copied from muir
"I maintain that the best way for Israeli jews to make themselves safe is to bring peace to the middle east....why is that not the focus of the discussion?"

The subject goes back many hundreds of years. It exists outside of the Middle East. It is a mindset taught around the globe in many places. The OP stated the focus of the thread, not you; why is that not the focus of this discussion?

I am writing responses to Gracie Ruth and ones to your wikipedia post, but i don't have as much time as i'd like to spend on this

I do not agree with this idea that there just is this thing called 'anti-semitism' that will just arise cyclically like ice ages or sunspots (even these have things driving them); you know...its like saying that recessions just occur....no they don't just occur...there are reasons for all of these things and if you want to protect yourself against these things then you'd better get to grips with the underlying reasons!

There has been persecution against jews. there has been persecution against many groups throughout history.

I would like to see an end to all that, but in order to do so i am suggesting that there are issues that need to be resolved before that can be achieved

Noam Chomsky has been an openly dissenting voice against the expansionist policy of Israel...he argues that Israel should have focussed on security not expansion and that expansion makes Israel enemies.

There are always different voices in these situations. For example the temptation for israelis was to arm themselves with nuclear weapons gained from the US, but there are knock on effects of doing that. For example we already saw in the cold war an arms race between the US and the USSR. So the effect of Israel having nuclear weapons (given to them by the US) is that any country that is opposed to them now feels unsafe and will attempt to arm itself with nuclear weapons.....in effect an arms race......Chomsky, i think, is making the point that do these arms races make us safer or less safe?

For example Iran is currently developing nuclear weapons. In the western media they are portrayed as some sort of crazed outlaw that is hellbent on the destruction of Israel. But if you step back from it for a minute and put yourself in the shoes of the Iranians, they must be terrified. They have seen the US invade and occupy two of their neighbours (Iraq and Afghanistan) and support the overthrow of a regime in Libya (they had previously been working with) and launch attacks within, one time ally Pakisthan, whilst the US has been making threats towards Iran and politicians such as John McCain can even be seen joking about bombing Iran:

[video=youtube;o-zoPgv_nYg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg[/video]

Now i don't know what passes for a joke in that part of the world, but for most people blowing people up is not funny.

I want to get back to my original point that if you want to solve a problem and i mean GENUINELY solve the problem then you need to treat the problem not the symptom. The situation in Israel is going to continue to be a potential flashpoint and an engine room of anger unless a solution can be found. There is a solution on the table which is the creation of a Palestinian state. That would enable the Palestineans to have homeland which is after all what the jews want as well. Do both peoples not have a right to a homeland and to safety?

That should be the focus if you want to make jews safe

There is however a further dimension to this issue. That is the nature of the relationship between the US and Israel. If you are going to solve the problem in israel then you need to ask some difficult and sensitive questions about the nature of that relationship.

If you don't do that then i cannot take you seriously if you claim you want to see jews safe

You have stated on the forum that you are a christian, but do you support an expansionist policy in Israel?

Some fundamentalist christians in the US believe that by repopulating the Holy land with jews and by converting some of them to christianity that this will be a fulfillment of biblical prophesy and that this will bring on the armageddon in which Jerusalem will ba attacked by the armies of Gog and Magog (President Bush's name in the Skull and Bones society was 'Magog'...see more about the Bush family below)

This climactic battle will, the fundamentalist christians believe, see the salvation of the converted jews and the destruction of the remainder.

So i want to point out to Gracie Ruth that she should be wary of who she believes is her ally because the truth is that fundamentalist christians want to see jews either converted or destroyed and are therefor arguably some of the most anti jew people around! Sadly these fundamentalist christians form a significant lobby within the US

Back to the Bush family:

Here's a passage from wikipedia about an anscestor of the two Bush Presidents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States):
A
Christian belief in the return of the Jews to the Holy Land has roots in the US, which pre-date both the establishment of the Zionist movement and the establishment of Israel. Lobbying by these groups, to influence the US government in ways similar to Zionist ideology, dates back to at least the 19th century.

In 1844,
Christian restorationistGeorge Bush, a professor of Hebrew at New York University and ancestor of the Presidents Bush, published a book entitled The Valley of Vision; or, The Dry Bones of Israel Revived. In it he denounced
 
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Muir, I doubt we are going to be able to communicate very effectively. You are basing your arguments on non-existant things like "The Israeli Expansionist Policy." There are Jews and Israelis that do want to expand Israel to its traditional borders, but they don't represent the majority, nor do they represent the policy of the Israeli government. The typical Israeli just wants to be left alone and not harassed, and isn't interested at all in inceasing Israeli territory. The truth is that if the Palestinians put down their weapons tomorrow, there would be peace; if the Israelis put down their weapons tomorrow, there would be no more Israel. Since we cannot even agree upon the facts from which to argue, we are spinning our wheels trying to have an intelligent conversation.

And Muir, the world has a long history of telling Jews we are to blame for antisemitism. It doesn't suprise us to hear such remarks made, neither does it phase us. The whole "blaming the victim" thing just goes in one ear and out the other.
 
Matt:

Thanks. The biological predisposition to divide people into "us" and "them" IS an interesting topic. I just think it was a little too off track for this thread. But if you ever want to open up your own thread about it, I would certainly participate.
 
quote, but I could not have said it better...........

"The truth is that if the Palestinians put down their weapons tomorrow, there would be peace; if the Israelis put down their weapons tomorrow, there would be no more Israel."

So much truth in that most people just are not able to comprehend it.
 
The entire concept of returning to the Levant and setting up a Jewish state is both beautiful and insane. From a North Atlantic perspective it seems like the only rational thing to do after centuries of low level genocide boiled over into an attempt to burn the whole of Judaism from the face of the planet. From an Eastern Mediterranean perspective it was a blatant and violent act of Colonialism. Had the Brits and the Afrikaners laid down their weapons in Shaka Zulu's time they would certainly have been slaughtered. Same as the Pilgrim Colony in Massachusetts Bay in the late 1600s. Yet modern liberal thought judges both of these groups as vicious and murderous toward their native populations.

The only way that the Arab peoples will be accepting of a Jewish state is if their own societies are prosperous and allow them to live in dignity, which is largely not the case now. The main thrust of the political upheavals that are going on in those societies is an aggregate desire to have economic, legal and political justice to be their norm.

It is indeed a very dangerous time for Israel. It is a raging river that must be crossed not dammed up.
 
Hawk:

We send financial aid to all sorts of countries on this planet, we send peace corp volunteers to help teach, and the whole nine yards. Has it produced any healthy democracies?

One of the things that was hardest for me to learn is that prosperity is built upon cultural values. This is why you can have group of half starved scaggly immigrants come into a land and start up businesses, conquer environmental difficulties, and send their kids off to college, while another group of similar people just sits in their squalor and whines about being kept down.

Until cultures change, dictators will continue to take aid for themselves to make a profit, absentee landlords will continue to exploit the people living on their properties, on and on and on. Most of the changes that good people would like to see happen require a change in heart. Anything short of that is simply a bandaid on an open wound.

I really and truly would like to see the Arab states prosper. I would like for ALL people to live in prosperity and freedom. But there is just a limit to how much a foreigner can help. Bush's big mistake was not in wanting democracy in Iraq, but rather in his assumption that Iraqis wanted freedom and democracy. I'm learning slowly, but I'm learning. Not everything I learn is flowers and butterflies.
 
Gr_c_R_th,

What the Arab people are going through right now is their culture's rebirth into the 21st century.

What I read in your posts here and all over this forum is Paternalism toward the "whiners".

I do not believe it is the Wests responsibility to teach the underdeveloped part of the world to be like us, but I do believe we should stop supporting authoritarian governments,(with guns).
 
Muir, I doubt we are going to be able to communicate very effectively. You are basing your arguments on non-existant things like "The Israeli Expansionist Policy." There are Jews and Israelis that do want to expand Israel to its traditional borders, but they don't represent the majority, nor do they represent the policy of the Israeli government. The typical Israeli just wants to be left alone and not harassed, and isn't interested at all in inceasing Israeli territory. The truth is that if the Palestinians put down their weapons tomorrow, there would be peace; if the Israelis put down their weapons tomorrow, there would be no more Israel. Since we cannot even agree upon the facts from which to argue, we are spinning our wheels trying to have an intelligent conversation.

And Muir, the world has a long history of telling Jews we are to blame for antisemitism. It doesn't suprise us to hear such remarks made, neither does it phase us. The whole "blaming the victim" thing just goes in one ear and out the other.

That's simply not true there is an expansionist policy in Israel; for example right before i came on this forum i read an article in a mainstream UK paper about Israel relocating Bedouin who have lived on the same land for the last 60 years; they are doing it to expand a jewish settlement and some people beleive it is part of a move to cut East jerusalem off from the west bank making a contiguous Palestinean state impossible: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ouin-west-bank

I'm making the point that if Israel keeps doing this sort of thing it will create its own enemies. There's no point angering someone by doing something to them and then shouting 'anti-semite' at them when they respond angrily

I don't agree that palestineans would be safe if they laid down their weapons; even when peaceful they clearly are not safe. I do however think that there is a real danger of escalation from both expansionist activities and the current arms race in the middle east

I think these are things worth considering. I also put it to you that Israel and the activities there are a large factor in how many people around the world perceive jews, especially within muslim countries

I also think another factor is regarding the nature of the relationship between the US and Israel and it seems that you are desperately trying to avoid analysing that.

You seem to display a total unwillingness to take any form of responsibility. That i find very worrying. Myself I regularly criticise the actions of my own country (UK) and i see that as my responsibility as a citizen in a 'democracy'.

What i don't do is blame everyone else for everything and deny them the right to have negative feelings towards Britain
 
copied, h-net.org
Adolf Hitler's First Antisemitic Writing
September 16, 1919



[Hitler returned from a military hospital to Munich in early 1919. There he underwent a Reichswehr sponsored course of systematic political education for demobilizing soldiers that featured Pan- German nationalism, antisemitism, and anti-socialism. These same themes were prominent in Bavarian politics following the repression of the Munich revolution of 1918-19. Because antisemitism had not played a notable part in Bavarian politics prior to the revolutionary disturbances, a Herr Adolf Gemlich was prompted to send an inquiry about the importance of the "Jewish question" to Captain Karl Mayr, the officer in charge of the Reichswehr News and Enlightenment Department in Munich. Mayr referred him to Hitler, who had distinguished himself in the above-mentioned course by the vehemence of his radical nationalist and antisemitic views, and by his oratorical talents. Hitler was already feeling his way toward a political career; four days before responding to Gemlich in the letter translated below, he had paid his first visit to the German Workers' Party (eventually renamed, the National Socialist Workers' Party) as a confidential agent of the Reichswehr. In the letter to Gemlich he appears anxious to establish his credentials as a knowledgeable and sober antisemite. Compared to the inflammatory mass-meeting oratory that he was soon to make his specialty, Hitler's rhetoric here is quite tame, stressing the need for a "rational" and "scientific" antisemitism. Some historians have interpreted the letter's call for the "irrevocable removal [Entfernung]" of the Jews from German life as a prefiguring of the Holocaust. But it is clear from the context and from later statements that, at this point, Hitler meant segregation or expulsion rather than systematic liquidation. The letter, Hitler's first explicitly political writing, impressed his Reichswehr superiors and he soon gained a reputation among radical rightist and socially respectable nationalist conservative groups as a man who could help inoculate the masses against revolution and whose antisemitic rhetoric could help discredit the democratic Weimar Republic. The letter may thus be seen as the launching of his political career. Source: Eberhard J
 
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