Original Sin--Born with the sin nature...

Roobarb&Custard said:
Oh! So you do want to be saved?!
:tonguewink:

(I just wrote a msg on your profile).
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No!
I hate God!
I want to be evil, and do just evil stuff!
Every nice thing I have ever done has be disingenuous and for my own benefit!
I really want to spit in God’s face even if it means I will burn and be tortured for all of eternity!
(Now doesn’t that sound logical?)

His whole take on it is that God is basically forcing people to love him back or else...they BURN!
I’m sorry but that makes zero sense...why bother with us at all then?
And it actually does say over and over again that the “whole world” will be saved....not just a few busloads of people.
Jesus was sent to save the “whole world” to imply anyone is going to “Hell" is implying that Jesus failed his mission.
 
Roobarb&Custard said:
I assume my assumption to be quite correct then! Lol.
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Lolol...very funny!
Seriously though...I thought we were having a very interesting conversation before it became a - I’m right and you’re wrong fiasco.
I find it fascinating that people would believe such a thing as original sin, but that’s just me.
If they are content with that, more power to them.
Just don’t act like you’re above anyone else because of that.
 
I think it’s what happens when people don’t question their own beliefs. I also think it is something that underlies Judaism, Christianity and Islam, so it’s very entrenched. The concept that some are chosen, or that non-believers are damned to hell (at a minimum, and some believers as well).

Well, what about the ones not chosen, the infidels, the others? They are automatically accorded second-class citizenship, aren’t they? Because they don’t deserve happiness. They don’t deserve peace. They don’t deserve prosperity. They don’t get to go to heaven. In this way, “they” are robbed of their participation in something everyone wants, but believes not everyone can have. So, better that I have it and not you, eh?

I’ve thought about this after the most recent election and came to the conclusion that it’s one thing to believe you might go to hell, but a whole other thing entirely believing that other people will go to hell.
 
Chickensoup said:
I think it’s what happens when people don’t question their own beliefs. I also think it is something that underlies Judaism, Christianity and Islam, so it’s very entrenched. The concept that some are chosen, or that non-believers are damned to hell (at a minimum, and some believers as well).
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I asked my brother last night (a committed Catholic) whether even the most virtuous non-Christians would go to hell. He said yes, but maybe only for a few thousand years. That in itself was interesting. Then my highly facetious self could not resist asking: "Even Plato, whose works are basically the philosophical foundations of Christianity? He would go to Hell, too?" To this he answered "Alright alright, I agree this particular dogma is bullshit... but I can't say it to the others!"
 
SeekerSeeking said:
Well, my book is fiction...and to me, maybe Jesus was...I see no reason for him to have come as God (the father) could simply forgive his wayward tribe of kids...But, yes, I would be interested in you expanding your "Jesus doesn't make sense outside of sacrifice."
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Finally coming back to this :)

René Girard developed a theory of what he called ‘mimetic desire’, according to which our desire for an object is always mediated through the desire of a third party for the same object. So instead of person A just desiring object B, you rather have person A desiring object B through a person C desiring B. In a sense, we not only tend to imitate other people as we grow, but we also imitate their desires, and come to see our own desires through the prism of their own.

Of course, when that logic is applied to the level of society, a serious problem arises: in the same way that person A and person C will become rivals over object B, so every member of community Γ will eventually develop a rivalry with at least one other member of Γ, which will lead to what Girard calls a “mimetic crisis”. Such a crisis promises to unleash great violence, unless a scapegoat is found who can somehow be sacrificed to resolve the crisis by being seen as the eradicable source of all ills. This would have been the meaning of symbolic rituals of public sacrifice, according to the theory.

What Girard says is unique about Christ is that Jesus was an example of an innocent scapegoat. He says that for the scapegoat mechanism to perform its function of resolving a mimetic crisis, the scapegoat must be seen by everyone in the community – those who sacrifice him – as guilty, that is, deserving of the punishment. According to Girard, such a mechanism was staunchly in place from the beginning of human society... until Christianity presented it with an innocent scapegoat who, because he was known to be innocent, ended up providing the template for reaching beyond the sacrificial violence of ‘primitive’ society and into genuine solidarity between members of the community, giving the anthropological basis of the social contract theory in Locke and Rousseau.

Hence why I said "Jesus could not come back". If he could, his scapegoating would suddenly be emptied of its meaning.
 
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In the creation, Adam and Eve were given the rights to everything except one thing. They were holy. This "tree" gave life, but it was coated and filled with knowledge of what was good and what was evil. Eve was punished with childbearing.

I see it as a depiction of holiness versus self. They never knew they were naked, yet ran and hid themselves with leaves. They were ashamed.

I see free will as a choice of holiness versus self.

The ten commandments: nine of them physical and one mental. Paul was thought to be all sorts of things, but he saw the difficulties of a man trying to live a holy life. The nine commandments were nothing to him to live by. Don't steal. Don't kill. Don't bear false witness against your neighbor. Alas, the one that slays us all: thou shalt not covet. Moral Imperatives:

I think God made them holy and expected them to remain so in the garden of Eden, maybe for a time so he could teach them. Maybe forever as an example. God knew what they had done when they claimed to be naked and wanted to hide themselves. He cast them out.

I see the problem with holiness nowadays as it's not being taught to young people. Who can teach it? They would be cast out.

There are steps to be taken to be saved. One holds the key of life. Each person must find this to be saved. Who is worthy?

The Hebrew word for "covet" can also be translated as "lust", and the book of Proverbs warns against coveting in the form of sexual lust. Take a few steps back. The Bible is for everyone, but everyone is not for the Bible. We open our minds to things, and we close our minds to things. This we choose.

I should add the Bible is filled with knowledge and mandates ways for childbearing in a holy manner. Yet, Jesus had to come to this earth in a virgin holy woman. He is the only man born without sin. I can't wait to talk about it: to see what God had in store for mankind.
 
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Skarekrow said:
His whole take on it is that God is basically forcing people to love him back or else...they BURN!
I’m sorry but that makes zero sense...why bother with us at all then?
And it actually does say over and over again that the “whole world” will be saved....not just a few busloads of people.
Jesus was sent to save the “whole world” to imply anyone is going to “Hell" is implying that Jesus failed his mission.
Click to expand...

Love to see several references. I like the KJV.
I see Jesus as providing a way for the whole world to be saved.
 
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just me said:
Love to see several references. I like the KJV.
I see Jesus as providing a way for the whole world to be saved.
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You know I’m not a Christian per say, but I’m not trying to disprove anyone’s religion either JustMe.
I just happen to interpret what is in the book differently than you and I’m perfectly okay with you not agreeing with my viewpoints.
I’m a big boy you know. lol
Not trying to knock anyones’ faith.

You left out the last part of what I wrote -
Skarekrow said:
Jesus was sent to save the “whole world” to imply anyone is going to “Hell" is implying that Jesus failed his mission.
Click to expand...

(All commentary is according to the book) ;)
Here are your references you requested...

"Who WILL have ALL men to be SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim. 2:4).

Remember the former things of old:
For I am God, and there is none else;
I AM GOD, and there is none like Me,
"Telling from the BEGINNING, the HEREAFTER,
And from AFORETIME, what has NOT YET been done,
Saying, 'ALL MY COUNSEL SHALL BE CONFIRMED,
And ALL MY DESIRE WILL I DO.
Calling from the sunrise, a bird of prey,
From a land far off, the man of My counsel.
Indeed, I SPEAK! INDEED, I WILL BRING IT ABOUT!
I formed. Indeed, I WILL DO IT" (Isaiah 46:9-11).

^^^ God sounds pretty intent and intense about what he IS going to do, lol.
And we know the scriptures teach

  • GOD IS LOVE
  • GOD IS SOVEREIGN
  • CHRIST'S WORDS ARE SPIRIT
  • MAN'S WILL IS NOT FREE AND INDEPENDENT OF GOD
  • THE GREEK WORD 'AIONIOS' NEVER MEANS ETERNAL (as in damnation and “Hell”)
  • GOD WILLS TO SAVE ALL MANKIND
  • GOD WILL PERFORM ALL HIS WILL


    But let’s reverse the scenario - He [Jesus Christ] came into a world that was NOT saved and has [subsequently] succeeded in sending millions or billions [MORE] to Hell.
    It doesn’t make any sense.

    "Surely, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He not, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us ALL?"(Rom. 8:32)!

    "After all of God's punishments and chastisements are meted out, all will be reconciled to God.
    Death will be abolished (I Cor. 15:26), and all will be vivified and given immortality never to be subject to pain, heartache, or death again.
    The Scriptures fully substantiate this grand truth.

    "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is One God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time" (I Tim. 2:3-4).

    "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL [Gk. "the" all] men unto me"(John 12:32).

    "That in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11).

    Comment: It wouldn't be "to the glory of God" if it were a forced acclimation. Besides I Cor. 12:3 plainly says, " ... no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the holy spirit." To "acclaim" carries the connotation of an heartfelt, voluntary expression.

    "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified" (I Cor. 15:22).

    Comment: "vivified" is from the Greek: Zoopoieo = LIVE-DO, "giving life beyond the reach of death, conferring immortality." The same "all" who are dying in Adam (which includes everyone) is the same "all" who are vivified in Christ (which of necessity includes everyone). Also notice that the "all" are vivified "in" Christ not "out" of Christ, and it's not, "all in Christ are vivified," but rather, "in Christ ... ALL are vivified." The order of words makes a giant difference.

    "Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just" (Rom. 5:19).

    Comment: This is not a difficult verse to understand. One offense brought condemnation on all mankind and all are constituted sinners. In the same manner ("thus also") through the obedience of the One [Christ] the same "many" are constituted just!

    "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus [sorry, no trinity here-or anywhere] who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time" (I Tim. 2:5-6).

    "For in Him [Christ] the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him to reconcile ALL to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Col. 1:20).

    "If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire" (I Cor. 3:15).

    " ... we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially[but not exclusively] believers. These things be charging and teaching" (I Tim. 4:11).

    "For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him" (John 3:17).

    " ... God, Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian [before the world began-Authorized]"(II Tim. 1:9).

    Comment: Man's salvation was assured before God ever created him. He knew all men would sin. That's why He provided a Saviour. We are saved by "grace" not by anything we do.

    "No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him. And I shall be raising him in the last day" (John 6:44).

    Comment: It is not up to us or anyone to come to Christ. God does the choosing, calling, drawing, etc. " ... the kindness of God is leading you to repentance" (Rom. 2:4).

    " ... having this same confidence, that He Who undertakes a good work among you, will be performing it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6).

    "Now to Him Who is ABLE to guard you from tripping, and to stand you flawless in sight of His glory ... " (Jude 24).

    " ... if One died for the sake of all, consequently all died" (II Cor. 5:14).

    Comment: God applies Christ's death and sacrifice to "all men." "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man" (Heb. 2:9).

    "And he [Christ] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2).

    Comment: Christ IS the propitiation for the sins of the whole world! How can you doubt it? How can you teach contrary to it? He isn't "potentially" the propitiation for the sins of the world. He IS the propitiation for the sins of the world.

    "Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation, how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation" (II Cor. 5:18-19).

    Comment: This Scripture is clear. God through Christ's sacrifice (Christ's sacrifice carries a whole lot more weight than you ever give Him credit for) is conciliating the whole world to Himself. Do you know what that means? God is "at peace" with mankind. Yes, there are future chastisements and punishments, but the end result has already been accomplished. What the world must yet go through is for their good. But God already knows the end result. All will be saved! However, only "we" have been given this word of reconciliation (that is any of us "we" who believe it)."


    Also see -
    100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
    by Thomas Whittemore
    http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html​
 
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I liked your first reply, so we can talk in same manner.

"You know I’m not a Christian per say, but I’m not trying to disprove anyone’s religion either JustMe.
I just happen to interpret what is in the book differently than you and I’m perfectly okay with you not agreeing with my viewpoints.
I’m a big boy you know. lol
Not trying to knock anyones’ faith."

Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Romans 10

16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Titus 1:15
King James Bible
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Many scriptures were words by the apostles being spoken to Christians, and they all would be saved; having done the necessary things.

My favorite
Matthew 25
The Sheep and the Goats

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Your I Timothy quote, out of context, sounds the way you want. But, read the entire chapter please.
A Call to Prayer

1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Instructions to Women

9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety......BIG IF

I am tired right now. We can talk more about this later maybe.
 
just me said:
I liked your first reply, so we can talk in same manner.

"You know I’m not a Christian per say, but I’m not trying to disprove anyone’s religion either JustMe.
I just happen to interpret what is in the book differently than you and I’m perfectly okay with you not agreeing with my viewpoints.
I’m a big boy you know. lol
Not trying to knock anyones’ faith."

Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Romans 10

16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Titus 1:15
King James Bible
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Many scriptures were words by the apostles being spoken to Christians, and they all would be saved; having done the necessary things.

My favorite
Matthew 25
The Sheep and the Goats

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Your I Timothy quote, out of context, sounds the way you want. But, read the entire chapter please.
A Call to Prayer

1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Instructions to Women

9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety......BIG IF

I am tired right now. We can talk more about this later maybe.
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Well then which one is it?
The Bible contradicts itself in nearly every chapter
It also says that it’s a sin and should be put to death for eating shrimp...being uncircumcised, having sex while on a woman’s period, having deformed parts, and a huge variety of other nonsensical verses as well.
Such as the Biblical duty to kill a woman for getting raped while engaged, or not screaming loudly enough during the act...being psychic...a “witch”....mixing meat and dairy (no more cheeseburgers!), I can go on but I will find a list for you.

I certainly hope for your sake you haven’t cut your hair!
Make sure and burn all your cotton/poly blend clothes too!
Blank+_e384cd2118ed20f5c9f0dc4941886e93.gif

Again...I’m trying to avoid getting into the contradictions made in the Bible JustMe because like I said...I’m not trying to prove or disprove anyone’s stance or faith including my own....I’m teasing with the above. ;)
These are my own conclusion and perceptions based on my own readings and studying and many hours of meditation and thought...I am by no means stating that I am professor of biblical theology.
I just don’t believe in Hell nor do I believe that the Bible hasn’t been wholly altered over the centuries.
Here are a few links to hopefully satiate you though.


Top 10 worst Bible passages
Simon Jenkins, editor of shipoffools.com, said the idea behind the web poll was to make people think about the dangers of selectively quoting from the bible.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/6120373/Top-10-worst-Bible-passages.html

List of actions prohibited by the Bible
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_actions_prohibited_by_the_Bible



​
 
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I like single Bible verses, hopefully the NEW Testament, not webpages.

It is obvious we view things differently. Funny the things people hang onto.
 
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So I only read page one before posting this, but...

In my perspective, Ren's identification of sin with free will in the Christian worldview is bang on, while I'd also like to pick up on Milktoast Bandit's discussion of pantheism in Orthodox Christianity (but from a RC perspective).

I've done a fair amount of work on the medieval Christian concept of 'grace', and how it relates to land and the individual, so bear in mind that my comments come primarily from historical work on the 11th to 16th centuries in Western Europe.

I think it's important to mention that, in theological terms, 'sin' is to be contrasted with 'grace' (rather than, say, 'goodness' or some other moral category of that sort).

I mentioned what Ren said because typically 'grace' is a kind of negation of free will. Having grace means to submit entirely to the will of God, thus forefeiting your own. Savonarola, the popular Renaissance Flotentine priest (and heretic, really) called it the 'supernatural light', and conceived of 'grace' as being in a fundamental, zero-sum game with free will. He literally said things like, 'you can be two thirds composed of the supernatural light' (I'm paraphrasing). There is no space for free will if you want to have grace (and thus attain to heaven) - there is only one choice you have to make: to submit to God's will.

Now in terms of original sin, Savonarola diverged from orthodox teaching to argue that the people with the least free will (the poor, the popolo minuto), naturally acquired more grace (without priests). That is, there is no original sin but that actively attained by acts of free will.

The weirder development for me was how, during the Middle Ages, the Christian conception of grace as vested (or not) in the land changed from something fundamentally theistic to something deistic. So until about the 14th century the world was 'fallen'. Specific places could be further defiled by sin (cities, places occupied by heathens, &c.) or sanctified by consecration and the effect of relics. So the world was 'fallen' and needed theistic intervention in specific places to be sanctified.

Over the course of the Middle Ages, and especially after the growth in the power of kings and nation-states (Lollardism and Hussitism are the early expressions of this), particular lands became viewed as having salvationary power. The 'land' of England or Bohemia came to embody divine grace as manifestations of particular salvationary national communities. Hus wrote of 'The Church of Christ in England' and 'The Church of Christ in Bohemia', revealing a major ecclesiological development.

It was no longer a universal Church presiding over a fallen world, but individual national Churches operating from particular, sanctified landscapes.

Later on, this developed into a deistic impulse, with people quite earnestly arguing that the world - as the creation of God - was itself divine, and therefore one could attain grace a posteriori e mundo - from experience of the world (no priest needed). This is why I believe Visari classified, say, painting and sculpture (verisimilitude of a divine creation) and not poetry (free will) as a fine art.

In this sense, original sin is easily, almost automatically, overcome by the predestined. You don't actually need a priest, just look at creation around you and submit to God's will. Only your own free will will stop you attaining grace, which is a kind of reversal - 'original sin' becomes 'acquired sin' only. Theologically, the fruit is free will (or free choice not to submit to the will of God).
 
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Deleted member 16771 said:
So I only read page one before posting this, but...

In my perspective, Ren's identification of sin with free will in the Christian worldview is bang on, while I'd also like to pick up on Milktoast Bandit's discussion of pantheism in Orthodox Christianity (but from a RC perspective).

I've done a fair amount of work on the medieval Christian concept of 'grace', and how it relates to land and the individual, so bear in mind that my comments come primarily from historical work on the 11th to 16th centuries in Western Europe.

I think it's important to mention that, in theological terms, 'sin' is to be contrasted with 'grace' (rather than, say, 'goodness' or some other moral category of that sort).

I mentioned what Ren said because typically 'grace' is a kind of negation of free will. Having grace means to submit entirely to the will of God, thus forefeiting your own. Savonarola, the popular Renaissance Flotentine priest (and heretic, really) called it the 'supernatural light', and conceived of 'grace' as being in a fundamental, zero-sum game with free will. He literally said things like, 'you can be two thirds composed of the supernatural light' (I'm paraphrasing). There is no space for free will if you want to have grace (and thus attain to heaven) - there is only one choice you have to make: to submit to God's will.

Now in terms of original sin, Savonarola diverged from orthodox teaching to argue that the people with the least free will (the poor, the popolo minuto), naturally acquired more grace (without priests). That is, there is no original sin but that actively attained by acts of free will.

The weirder development for me was how, during the Middle Ages, the Christian conception of grace as vested (or not) in the land changed from something fundamentally theistic to something deistic. So until about the 14th century the world was 'fallen'. Specific places could be further defiled by sin (cities, places occupied by heathens, &c.) or sanctified by consecration and the effect of relics. So the world was 'fallen' and needed theistic intervention in specific places to be sanctified.

Over the course of the Middle Ages, and especially after the growth in the power of kings and nation-states (Lollardism and Hussitism are the early expressions of this), particular lands became viewed as having salvationary power. The 'land' of England or Bohemia came to embody divine grace as manifestations of particular salvationary national communities. Hus wrote of 'The Church of Christ in England' and 'The Church of Christ in Bohemia', revealing a major ecclesiological development.

It was no longer a universal Church presiding over a fallen world, but individual national Churches operating from particular, sanctified landscapes.

Later on, this developed into a deistic impulse, with people quite earnestly arguing that the world - as the creation of God - was itself divine, and therefore one could attain grace a posteriori ex mundo - from experience of the world (no priest needed). This is why I believe Visari classified, say, painting and sculpture (verisimilitude of a divine creation) and not poetry (free will) as a fine art.

In this sense, original sin is easily, almost automatically, overcome by the predestined. You don't actually need a priest, just look at creation around you and submit to God's will. Only your own free will will stop you attaining grace, which is a kind of reversal - 'original sin' becomes 'acquired sin' only. Theologically, the fruit is free will (or free choice not to submit to the will of God).
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Interesting read.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
You don't actually need a priest, just look at creation around you and submit to God's will.
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Ah yes. Submission. The whole point of it all, but never mind that, we've got things to conquer!
 
just me said:
I like single Bible verses, hopefully the NEW Testament, not webpages.

It is obvious we view things differently. Funny the things people hang onto.
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That’s fine...I wasn’t planning to debate you or try and disprove your Biblical verses, so I linked you instead in case it wasn’t something you wanted to read.
Not trying to convince you or anyone else on the forum of anything - believe what you will - just don’t tell me that I am wrong because I believe differently than the next guy that’s all.

Single verses...okay, my fav. “Turn the other cheek”.
Not turn away from the person striking you without responding...most people think that’s what it means.
No.
It means if they should strike you (attack you in any way including verbally), offer them the other cheek to strike as well.
Most people can’t handle getting cut off on the freeway.
Not any easy verse to emulate.

Take care JustMe.
 
Really couldn't narrow to one favorite verse. When I weep? "Jesus wept."

Such it is to find solace and comfort in times like these. When I'm feeling down? "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

When I have lost someone dear to me? "Blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted."

When I feel betrayed or done wrong? "What thou doest, do quickly."

Favorite passages are numerous, among them being Isaiah 52: 13-15 and Isaiah 53 together.

52

15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

53

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Take care to you also.
 
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