Original Sin--Born with the sin nature...

[Skarekrow]

My dear Skarekrow, don't exhaust yourself with this circular argument! It essentially goes like this:

Statement: we're all born into sin.
Answer: I don't agree, explain why.
Answer back: you don't agree because you're born into sin.

There's no way out of this. It's a fallacy not worth your time.

This sums up the round and round nicely....

LOL

And I DO believe in God (except for Hell)...just not the same one as Wonka apparently.


​

 

[wonkavision]

I'm not telling you that you are lost just because I get pleasure from telling you you're lost. I'm also telling you that there is salvation in Christ (as he's revealed in the Scriptures).

And once again, it's not my opinion. It is the declaration of God in his Word. Read it yourself. Here is an explanation of all these things from the Bible itself:


Original sin, and the condemnation of God's holy Law against sin:

Romans 3:10-20

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


The only salvation there is from sin:

Romans 3:21-26

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



Skarekrow, when God sends someone to show you these things, and you kill the messenger, you only harm yourself. And yes, I would like to see you come to faith in Christ and be saved. Is that so bad?

The fact is you will not be saved unless and until God gives you the faith to believe on his darling Son as he's plainly revealed in his Holy Word. And I pray that he will.

 

[wonkavision]

Look man, I wasn't born in a religious household. No one in my family believes what I believe. Until the Lord saved me, I was no more inclined to believe any of this than you are.
God opened my eyes to this truth by a work of his Spirit. Otherwise, I would never have believed.
I'm an INFJ just like you, Skarekrow. I have an excellent BS detector like you.

I'm not trying to trick you into anything, or sway you with convincing logical arguments. I'm just telling you the plain truth that's revealed in God's holy Word. We're ALL born in sin.
We all have a sin-nature, inherited from Adam. And our only hope of salvation from sin is the Lord Jesus Christ. And we can only receive this salvation through God-given faith in him.

Yes, I have declared to you that you are lost, but that's not the only thing that I've said. I've told you that there is salvation in Christ. In the Christ of the Bible. Not of your imagination.
I know that you are not saved because you deny that you're a natural born sinner in need of God's mercy. That's not a judgment. It's the truth, according to God's holy Word. -- But there is hope for you!

Again, I did not always believe what I know now to be true. God sent a man to preach these things to me, and God used that message to call me out of darkness and into his light.
I hope and I pray that he'll do the same for you. And you can kick and you can scream and curse me all you want. And you can question my motives and all of that nonsense. But in the meantime, I'm praying for you.

 

[Skarekrow]

I'm not telling you that you are lost just because I get pleasure from telling you you're lost. I'm also telling you that there is salvation in Christ (as he's revealed in the Scriptures).

And once again, it's not my opinion. It is the declaration of God in his Word. Read it yourself. Here is an explanation of all these things from the Bible itself:


Original sin, and the condemnation of God's holy Law against sin:

Romans 3:10-20

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


The only salvation there is from sin:

Romans 3:21-26

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



Skarekrow, when God sends someone to show you these things, and you kill the messenger, you only harm yourself. And yes, I would like to see you come to faith in Christ and be saved. Is that so bad?

The fact is you will not be saved unless and until God gives you the faith to believe on his darling Son as he's plainly revealed in his Holy Word. And I pray that he will.

I was wondering when you were going to use the “don’t shoot the messenger” out.
Take some personal responsibility for your judgmental BS.
All of this is your opinion based on your faith and the way you and your church interpret the Bible....that is perfectly fine if that is what you choose to believe and practice - I have my own faith and I practice my own interpretations of the same book - for you to preach to me that I am wrong and am hell-bound because of that and assumptions you have made about me personally - doesn’t make me want to believe what you believe - I find what you believe to be wholly disgusting and incorrect.
That’s my opinion and faith that I’m afforded just as you are yours.
So why come on this thread and tell everyone they are going to Hell?
Do you see this as your duty or something?
Wouldn’t a better purpose for your time be served on a street corner yelling about God at traffic?

 

[Skarekrow]

Look man, I wasn't born in a religious household. No one in my family believes what I believe. Until the Lord saved me, I was no more inclined to believe any of this than you are.
God opened my eyes to this truth by a work of his Spirit. Otherwise, I would never have believed.
I'm an INFJ just like you, Skarekrow. I have an excellent BS detector like you.

I'm not trying to trick you into anything, or sway you with convincing logical arguments. I'm just telling you the plain truth that's revealed in God's holy Word. We're ALL born in sin.
We all have a sin-nature, inherited from Adam. And our only hope of salvation from sin is the Lord Jesus Christ. And we can only receive this salvation through God-given faith in him.

Yes, I have declared to you that you are lost, but that's not the only thing that I've said. I've told you that there is salvation in Christ. In the Christ of the Bible. Not of your imagination.
I know that you are not saved because you deny that you're a natural born sinner in need of God's mercy. That's not a judgment. It's the truth, according to God's holy Word. -- But there is hope for you!

Again, I did not always believe what I know now to be true. God sent a man to preach these things to me, and God used that message to call me out of darkness and into his light.
I hope and I pray that he'll do the same for you. And you can kick and you can scream and curse me all you want. And you can question my motives and all of that nonsense. But in the meantime, I'm praying for you.

Listen man...I KNOW that there is more than this reality.
I have been witness to things that wouldn’t be considered as natural or normal to nature or physics.
You don’t have to convince me there is a creator...nor is it your responsibility to save me.
Thanks, you can bring it up that you tried to save me at your trial before God if you want (to see if you are going to Heaven or Hell).
Cheers.

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

The fact is you will not be saved unless and until God gives you the faith to believe on his darling Son as he's plainly revealed in his Holy Word. And I pray that he will

So, it's all God's fault?

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

On the free will of man and cooperation with God:

1 Corinthians 3King James Version (KJV)
3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;

22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;

23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

"This idea of freedom and free will is not new to us or to the Founding Fathers. They have existed from the beginning, when God created the world and humankind. The freedom to choose, to make moral choices between good and evil, between God and sin, is one of the central characteristics of humanity created in the image of God. Autexousion- self-determination, the ability to choose, that is what makes us ethical beings and sets us apart from the rest of creation, especially other animals.

Freedom comes from obedience to God. In the Garden of Eden God commanded Adam that he could freely eat of every tree except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil 16And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, ?Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.? (Gen. 2:16-17). By making humankind in His image and likeness (Gen. 1.26), God gave to Adam free will. Free will is the ability to choose between good and evil. However, many people say that God gave Adam no real choice because He commanded that Adam not eat of the one tree. To understand correctly, there is a difference between what God commands and what He forces. The fact is that God never forced Adam to do anything or prevented him from anything.

People feel the Commandments of God are rules which limit their freedom. The fact that Adam and Eve actually ate of the Tree proves this is not true. God will never force us either. We have the free will to choose between good and evil as well, the ability to choose God or not to choose God. Christ, speaking to John, says: Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. Christ knocks but we must choose whether to open the door or not.

Because we have free will, does that mean that we are free? That we have freedom? This is an important question. Most people in American society would say yes. I choose, therefore I am free. Freedom is predicated on the ability to choose. As Orthodox Christians, our view is a bit different though. It is not our ability to choose, our free will, that makes us free. What makes us free, what gives us freedom, is what we choose or to be more specific, who we choose. John 8:34 ?Jesus answered them, ?Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin??. As St. Paul sees it, we are in bondage either way, to Christ or to sin. He says in the letter to the Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one?s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Again in Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

That is why in all the services, the faithful are referred to as doulos or doule tou Theou; not the ?servant? of God but the slave of God. It is our obedience, our slavery to Christ that makes us free. That sounds like a paradox and it is. Orthodoxy is full of paradoxes.

Original Sin brought corruption, imperfection and death into the Creation. Original Sin tainted the image of God within the human person. When we sin we taint or stain the image of God within us. According to Orthodox teaching, sin stains the image of God but does not destroy it. Human beings may choose to accept or reject the Gospel, but must suffer the consequences of their decision Genesis 3:22-23 ?Then the Lord God said, ?Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever?- therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.?

Continual sin causes a film or finish to form on our soul. We cannot see clearly through it. Our vision of Christ is blurred and our judgment is impaired. As this happens we begin to lose our God-given gift of free will. We lose our ability to choose freely. Why? Because our choices are limited. If we cannot see the good, if we cannot see God, how can we choose Him? In reality, when our soul is stained through sin, the only thing we see is ourselves. It is very easy to put myself first in all things when I cannot see anything around me. One only needs to think of his/her own bad habits or addictions to realize how this dynamic operates. Many people feel they are powerless over their behavior and they are because of the darkness of sin. The stains on our soul prevent the Light of Christ from entering into us. Saint Paul knew this very well when he spoke again in Romans 7:19-20 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. This is truly slavery.

Psalm 146:7c The Lord gives freedom to the prisoners. The psalmist is not talking about the prisoners in Stillwater, Oak Park Heights, Lino Lakes or Shakopee. He is talking about you and me. For this reason Christ came, to free us from the bondage of sin. Jesus freed us from the bondage of sin and death. After Jesus was baptized, He goes into the temple and reads from the Book of Isaiah 61:1 1?The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the Lord has anointed Me, To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound. Galatians 5:13 For you brethren have been called to freedom (liberty); only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. Again St. Paul speaks in Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 2Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (liberty). These short little verses should bring hope to all of us.

What a beautiful miracle and mystery that God Himself came down from heaven for us and our salvation. Wait though, we still have a problem. Too many times I have heard from my fellow Orthodox Christians, especially young people, that there is no real hope in Christ. Why? Because, I know I am going to sin again and again and again. My answer is this: Yes, you will sin again. But remember as dark and rusted and pitted and stained as your soul may become through sin, you will always retain the image of God. No matter how much you have let the devil and his demons run your life, the image of God is not destroyed within you. Your ability to choose God is not lost."
Reference: http://stgeorgegoc.org/pastors-corner/fr-ricks-sermons/freedom-free-will-in-christ


Further: How can any man lay claim to knowledge that a God that is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, immutable, love and all wise is incapable or unwilling to operate outside of the bounds of any form of Christianity?

 

[Skarekrow]

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

Hell yeah! My thoughts on religion were just articulated in a way I couldn't on my own. His reason for being Islam is the same reason for my being Orthodox. The language resonates more than the others. It's a way that I can maintain that indescribable connection and inner peace. The "six foot well" metaphor is why I consider myself not just Christian, but also a perennialist. Welp, enough about me... I'm going to go choose to do stuff.

 

[Skarekrow]

Hell yeah! My thoughts on religion were just articulated in a way I couldn't on my own. His reason for being Islam is the same reason for my being Orthodox. The language resonates more than the others. It's a way that I can maintain that indescribable connection and inner peace. The "six foot well" metaphor is why I consider myself not just Christian, but also a perennialist. Welp, enough about me... I'm going to go choose to do stuff.

I concur...lol.
I thought he had a good way of explaining religion in general.

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

On the free will of man and cooperation with God:

Acts 17:26-27King James Version (KJV)
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us

 

[Disguised]

It's ironic to see a christian (calvinist) being the most judgemental type. I've thought for a while now if these churches and places of religion serve the need to justify ones own actions. Not getting the feeling of doing something wrong must surely feel nice but I feel like acceptance of the past never truly happens deep inside if the only explanation for ones own actions is that people are unpure and that's just the way it is. Pureness is something to be achieved, not some prize from a lottery.

My grandmother went to the church a lot, prayed, believed and in other words was a true christian so to speak, which she used to the extent of being able to beat her children and even try to murder one with rat poison (my mother). I find myself often in a place of hate when meeting the kind of people judging others and not themselves.

 

[Ren]

Pureness is something to be achieved, not some prize from a lottery.

Indeed, friend. You put it very eloquently.

The freedom that's been bestowed upon us ought to be used for the purpose of the good. I am okay with any religion which teaches that message.

 

[wonkavision]

Suit yourselves then, everyone. Go on believing that you have a free will. You're only proving the doctrine of Original Sin, and you will meet God in judgment. Just remember, I have told you several times that your only hope is the Lord Jesus Christ. The blood is not on my hands. If you will not bow to his sovereign will, and confess that you're nothing but a hell-deserving sinner, you have no reason to think you are safe from his holy wrath. But if God, in his mercy, opens your eyes and unstops your deaf ears, and graciously forces you to bow to him, then you will confess that you're nothing but a sinner, saved by his grace.

 

[PintoBean]

I always found it ridiculous and even insulting. It’s one the main concepts which turns me off to Christianity. We are born fallible, not sinners.

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

If you will not bow to his sovereign will, and confess that you're nothing but a hell-deserving sinner, you have no reason to think you are safe from his holy wrath

Free will?

 

[wonkavision]

I see no point in arguing with people who have no interest in being saved. If you want to go to hell, then go on with your prattling.
What I want to know is whether or not there is anyone here who is interested in what the Bible actually teaches about sin, and what the Bible actually teaches about how the Lord actually saves people from their sin.
If even one person here would like to know that please say so, and I will be glad to share with you what the Bible actually teaches.
Otherwise, have fun with these cackling infidels.

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

I see no point in arguing with people who have no interest in being saved. If you want to go to hell, then go on with your prattling.
What I want to know is whether or not there is anyone here who is interested in what the Bible actually teaches about sin, and what the Bible actually teaches about how the Lord actually saves people from their sin.
If even one person here would like to know that please say so, and I will be glad to share with you what the Bible actually teaches.
Otherwise, have fun with these cackling infidels.

Teach me.

 

[wonkavision]

Teach me.

Are you being sincere? I would love to tell you the truth about God if you will really listen.
But if you're not really interested please say so. I don't want to waste my time or yours.

Do you have any particular questions I can help with? If not, I'll continue on this subject of Original Sin.

I really hope you're sincere. It's my greatest passion to teach others about Jesus Christ.