Paris Shootings, Explosion & Hostage Crisis 11/13

[Lingo]

IMO I don't care if it's about Islam or not - terrorism is terrorism and should be handled as the "cancer" it is.
But... what action are we talking about? Is there such a thing as "righteous war"?

Terrorist should be singled out and prosecuted - we should treat them as we did Breivik or Batman shooter or any other.
Whole nation, country or religion should not be responsible for what this extremist had done.

 

[j654dgj7]

And... the brotherhood are not the spokes people or representives of the religion itself. I may be wrong. Im talking about the religious leaders.

Just like with Christianity, there is no single spokesperson or leader. Those that I have heard from have all renounced the attacks and attackers. Except for ISIS and Al-Qaeda, but fuck those guys, they aren't real Muslims anyways.

 

[Trifoilum]

For those asking what "action" needs to be taken. The first step at a very basic level is that world leaders need to stand up and ask where the religious leadership for Muslim's is in all this? Ask them to come forward and not only condemn these acts but state that this is not what Islam is about. If they say they wont do that, it needs to be asked why.

.....I don't know where you are living, but from my perspective it happens all the time.

Quick searches, and this is for something that happened just around a day ago:

https://www.facebook.com/imamomarsuleiman/posts/1059783334041707

https://www.facebook.com/DrBilalPhilips/posts/10153711927884089

https://www.facebook.com/khalid.lat...8382.162340013860349/1114643665296641/?type=3

https://www.facebook.com/suhaib.webb/posts/10153680041943080

I do not know if there is a pope like figure in islam or if there are prominent figures that are looked to from the general Muslim population for guidance etc. If so these people need to come forward and make statements on news stations, radio etc and tell their followers and the world that this is a grotesque misinterpretation of the religion. Make it clear that these people committing these acts are deranged.

Again, it happens all the time. I understand that this might be due to our difference in perspective (again, I live in the biggest Muslim country in the world).

But Islam's imams work the same way as Christian priests and jewish rabbis-- each has a voice only around their congregation. Do you ask for condemnation from American Christians over atrocities in Russia? Do you demand Chinese Buddhist monks to condemn the brutal actions of Myanmar monks?

Why must Muslim leaders all over the world have to condemn the actions of people who aren't their students?

But they pretty much already have to, especially Muslims in Western countries, because NOT condemning is a quick gateway to bullying and discrimination. (not that condemning helps...)

 

[Rcs6r]

This article from the BBC has the most up-to-date info about the attacks and the aftermath that I can find. If there is a better one, please share and link.

Islamic State released a statement on Saturday saying "eight brothers wearing explosive belts and carrying assault rifles" had carried out the attacks on "carefully chosen" targets, and were a response to France's involvement in the air strikes on IS militants in Syria and Iraq.

"So France will be pitiless in its response to the Islamic State militants," he said, vowing to "use all means within the law.. on every battleground here and abroad together with our allies".

WE ARE AT WAR! How many dead French people does there need to be in order for this simple fact to be brought out into the open. IS have publically claimed it was an act of war, even the President of France claimed it was an act of war.

This is true. ISIS declared itself a world-wide caliphate and claims ownership over all Muslims. Obviously that doesn't mean most Muslims support them, but you see how determined this group is and how many people they will try to use to achieve their goals.

I am not surprised by peoples' reactions on social media, either. I don't have a problem with people changing their profile pictures to the French flag, or this wonderful symbol by French graphic designer Jean Jullien...

...but when the politics start flying, OOOOOH BOYYYYYY.

 

[Rcs6r]

Hedging my bets that the attackers are home-grown militants, either 2nd or 3rd-generation French Arabs

e: also waiting to see how this influences French policy, both foreign and domestic. will be paying close attention to how people treat sikhs/muslims over the coming days and weeks.

UK intelligence recently told the BBC that the attackers appear to be a self-contained cell which returned to France from Syria.

Sources involved in the French investigation say that one of those who carried out the concert hall attack was a French citizen with a history of involvement in radical Islam.
French media quote police sources as saying that a Syrian passport belonging to someone born in 1990 was found next to one of the stadium attackers. An Egyptian passport was also found nearby.
Le Parisien newspaper quotes a spectator as saying one of the stadium attackers was a woman.

 

[Trifoilum]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/khwaja-khusro-tariq/carnage-in-paris-time-to-_b_8562256.html

Ultimately, the group psychopathy that is ISIS, Al-Qaeda or Boko Haram does not care about scriptural interpretation or infallibility. It is of no consequence to them what Muslims in general believe. It is their own brand of ideology that they wish to sell -- and the more Islam or Muslims as a whole are demonized, the greater will be the anger and alienation they so effectively prey on.


Those who insist terrorists are following "true" Islam must understand that they are only undermining those within the Muslim world who are trying to fight extremism. That when they label progressive Muslims "apologists" they are doing a great disservice to those who are sacrificing the most to fight this malignancy. The terrorists must be clearly seen as an aberration and universally stripped of their perfidious claim to act in God's name and in accordance to scriptural injunctions. To anoint them with devoutness will only further their legend and their legions.


It is time to change course, to end the petty squabbles that pass for debate in the public forum. The media must cease its selective attention to narratives of hatred and schism and give equal coverage to the narratives of interfaith harmony and kindness that are just as abundant. Let us start asking ourselves and others what we stand for and stop reminding each other what we are against." - Khwaja Khusro Tariq

 

[Flavus Aquila]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/khwaja-khusro-tariq/carnage-in-paris-time-to-_b_8562256.html
Ultimately, the group psychopathy that is ISIS, Al-Qaeda or Boko Haram does not care about scriptural interpretation or infallibility. It is of no consequence to them what Muslims in general believe. It is their own brand of ideology that they wish to sell -- and the more Islam or Muslims as a whole are demonized, the greater will be the anger and alienation they so effectively prey on.


Those who insist terrorists are following "true" Islam must understand that they are only undermining those within the Muslim world who are trying to fight extremism. That when they label progressive Muslims "apologists" they are doing a great disservice to those who are sacrificing the most to fight this malignancy. The terrorists must be clearly seen as an aberration and universally stripped of their perfidious claim to act in God's name and in accordance to scriptural injunctions. To anoint them with devoutness will only further their legend and their legions.


It is time to change course, to end the petty squabbles that pass for debate in the public forum. The media must cease its selective attention to narratives of hatred and schism and give equal coverage to the narratives of interfaith harmony and kindness that are just as abundant. Let us start asking ourselves and others what we stand for and stop reminding each other what we are against." - Khwaja Khusro Tariq

If Islam were a Jeep and extremists were like design flaws which regularly caused problems with no permanent fix, like the accelerator getting stuck every now and then. I wouldn't wast time trying to fix it over and over and over again - even if 99.9% of the car's other components were solid. I'd get a different car.

As asshole as it sounds, I think the only constructive thing a muslim leader can do is leave Islam behind and move on with a normal life.

 

[puzzledheart]

As asshole as it sounds, I think the only constructive thing a muslim leader can do is leave Islam behind and move on with a normal life.

Yes, leaving something behind is surely easier when you are dead ("apostasy") ;-)

 

[Lingo]

Syrian President Bashar al Assad condemned Friday's attacks in Paris and said that such acts of terror were similar to what his people had faced in years of violent civil war.

"What France suffered from savage terror is what the Syrian people have been enduring for over five years," the Syrian President was quoted as saying on state media and Lebanese TV station al Mayadeen.

Is human life equally treated across different countries? Why would someone from Canada, US or Australia emotionally get more involved when it comes to Western Europe?

 

[the]

Everyone knows what I think about this.

Then why comment?

 

[the]

Oh that's perfect. One kind tweet completely rids any crime or wrong-doing by the Muslim Brotherhood. I know you will say that isn't what you are implying, but come on. This is pathetic. This is why I hate Twitter; it can even make this awful group look somewhat nice.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't

 

[La Sagna]

[MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...e-world-condemn-heinous-attacks-a6734711.html

 

[La Sagna]

If we're going to blame all Muslims for those who identify with that faith but use it as a political tool for their hatred and misguided ways, then should we blame all men because they are responsible for almost all the terrorism and violence in the world?

 

[JJJA]

So sad. Hate begets hate. Fundamentally, that's what it's all about.

No, it isn't. It's about bad ideas belonging to a religious cult called Islam. All religion is bad, in my opinion, but Islam seems to be the most dangerous religion at the moment, given the number of Islamic terror attacks around the globe in recent years, and now in Paris for the second time. People should look beyond what they think causes hate and start to criticize religion and its ideas, then the discussion will develop a more analytical approach which can help us identify the root-cause of these attacks. I am not blaming all Muslims, which also demonstrates the point I was making with the ridiculous social media reaction. I never claimed that all Muslims should be blamed. Why can't you separate criticism of ideas and hating people based on their ideas?

 

[Kaleidoscopic]

No, it isn't. It's about bad ideas belonging to a religious cult called Islam. All religion is bad, in my opinion, but Islam seems to be the most dangerous religion at the moment, given the number of Islamic terror attacks around the globe in recent years, and now in Paris for the second time. People should look beyond what they think causes hate and start to criticize religion and its ideas, then the discussion will develop a more analytical approach which can help us identify the root-cause of these attacks. I am not blaming all Muslims, which also demonstrates the point I was making with the ridiculous social media reaction. I never claimed that all Muslims should be blamed. Why can't you separate criticism of ideas and hating people based on their ideas?

Have you read the Qu'ran? Judging by what you say I guess not. Well when you do read it, then you'll have the right to criticize. Religion is not dangerous, bad people is.

 

[Skarekrow]

“How can you have a war on terrorism when war itself is terrorism?”


― Howard Zinn​

 

[Rcs6r]

Is human life equally treated across different countries? Why would someone from Canada, US or Australia emotionally get more involved when it comes to Western Europe?

Cultural identity and shared histories. More westerners can relate to Europe than the Middle East. This is tied into, I believe, what [MENTION=13855]JJJA[/MENTION] mentioned was the "Anglosphere".

 

[JJJA]

Have you read the Qu'ran? Judging by what you say I guess not. Well when you do read it, then you'll have the right to criticize. Religion is not dangerous, bad people is.

Come up with an argument that successfully refutes my criticisms and then perhaps I will listen to you. All I gather from this is that you are not very pleased to hear that I prefer to criticize religion instead of finding other ways to blame the terror attacks on. I have read the Qu'ran. I have read it extensively and read many of its awful teachings and have decided to critique it accordingly. And by the way, I choose to criticize whatever I like, and I don't need your permission to do so, thank you very much.

 

[La Sagna]

No, it isn't. It's about bad ideas belonging to a religious cult called Islam. All religion is bad, in my opinion, but Islam seems to be the most dangerous religion at the moment, given the number of Islamic terror attacks around the globe in recent years, and now in Paris for the second time. People should look beyond what they think causes hate and start to criticize religion and its ideas, then the discussion will develop a more analytical approach which can help us identify the root-cause of these attacks. I am not blaming all Muslims, which also demonstrates the point I was making with the ridiculous social media reaction. I never claimed that all Muslims should be blamed. Why can't you separate criticism of ideas and hating people based on their ideas?

I have no problem with criticizing religions. The problem I have is that most people who criticize religions have very little real knowledge of them. Religions are very powerful, and therefore are useful tools for political agendas. There is definitely a serious problem facing the Muslim religion at this moment in time. It has been taken and twisted into a way of brainwashing vulnerable people into beliefs that are not fundamental to the religion.
The Muslim religion is not the source of the problem, but the tool used to execute political and ideological agendas. If the Muslim religion didn't exist, the people who are intent on causing war and mayhem in the world in an attempt to feed their need for power and control would use some other tool to try to reach their goal. However, there really is no more powerful tool than religion in controlling the minds of the people, so when it is used for evil intentions it is very very dangerous.

The fact that religion can be a very dangerous tool for evil people does not negate that hate begets hate. That is a fact. The terrorists are counting on us all to turn against each other and against the Muslim faith and its people, so that they can build their support by saying: 'See, I told you they are the enemy. They hate us. We need to hate them back and make them pay for their hate.'

 

[Kaleidoscopic]

Come up with an argument that successfully refutes my criticisms and then perhaps I will listen to you. All I gather from this is that you are not very pleased to hear that I prefer to criticize religion instead of finding other ways to blame the terror attacks on. I have read the Qu'ran. I have read it extensively and read many of its awful teachings and have decided to critique it accordingly. And by the way, I choose to criticize whatever I like, and I don't need your permission to do so, thank you very much.

I see there's no use to dicuss this issue with you.