[PUG] Patterns of the INFJ Forums

[slant]

come on slant

all the advice you give, I can read in a book.
If reading the book had helped, I wouldn't have been here

a lot of emotional treads are started just to vent a problem or to find some simpathy, someone who cares, someone who listens. A lot of members lack real live people who understands them. I lack people who really understand me. Being able to vent on this forum helped me to improve my real life and real life relationships, not reading a book with good advice. The forum is not about giving advice and helping others, it is about sharing thoughts, listening and being there for each other. If you are irritated by these treads, why don't you just ignore them?

Everone who needs help is free to start an emotional support tread. Even if it is going over and over again. Maybe one person learns something from the first time, an other one needs 20 times. Who are we to judge other peoples paths? who are we to state that they don't learn anything. Is this through? Do you know these persons well enough to make an assumption like that? And why do they have to learn something? Who are we to state that they are disfunctional? And also, I learn a lot from reading other peoples strugglings in life so you have no idea what the effect and benefits are from these kind of posts, no idea at all!

secondly, I also use MBTI to wrap my mind on things. It is not because I lable people inhere with an MBTI code, that I do that all the time in real life. This is for me the place to play with that. It is just a structure to learn about different behaviour patterns. To learn how other people behave so we can all live harmoniously together. And the label helps with that.

I believe this because it is a fact. I have never ever in my life been in a place where so many people are that know exactly what I'm talking about. And it may be a coinsidence that this is surprisingly an INFJ forum, but I don't believe it is a coinsidence.

Reading the advice does not mean you will use it- but I can at least try. I have already decided to ignore the emotional support threads. This was a personal decision. As such, I have decided to share my advice to how to solve most if not all of the problems discussed in that area of the forum here; I believe if these principles were implicated venting would not be necessary, and or, it would solve a problem without venting.

It appears to me that, from the statements you are making, it is possible that you might believe your viewpoint is a unique viewpoint that others you know in reality do not understand. This, as I have explained, turns into a them vs us.

Sumone's statement is the purest example I can come up with for the them vs us attitude. Because I am not one of yours, I do not understand. I can read the forums and witness the events but I still do not understand, because I am one of them, not one of you. This is, in my opinion, a large factor of discrimination.

It is sometimes hard to see people from the point of view of how they are and their beliefs as human being. As many of us have expressed, we often feel more naturally inclined to categorize and box people in through categories. It is easier for the human mind to understand, but it comes at a deadly cost.

People are being discriminated against because they do not fit in with these stereotypes. People are embracing strengths and ignoring and or EMBRACING weaknesses instead of trying to improve on them, and that is why I propose a self improvement area.

 

[sumone]

I think maybe you are seeing venting as a negative thing. Slant, sometimes people need, really need to get things off their chest. People, and especially INFJ's I think, tend to repress things and then it builds until it explodes. And it doesn't even matter what the rant or vent is about. It's about having the freedom to release it. Sure, maybe sometimes it comes across as weak, whiney or self pity. Who cares though? There have been times in my life I have just wanted to scream, "Does anybody care?" and not be met with accusations but instead love. Just someone to say that you are doing ok and they are glad you are in the world.
People are not looking for the fix in those threads but part of the fix is in the replies.

The furthest thing from my mind would be to divide this forum because of type. We are so very lucky to have the friends we have here of all types. None can stand alone. I guess I get my back up when I get the idea people want to fix in me what is inherently good.

 

[slant]

I think maybe you are seeing venting as a negative thing. Slant, sometimes people need, really need to get things off their chest. People, and especially INFJ's I think, tend to repress things and then it builds until it explodes. And it doesn't even matter what the rant or vent is about. It's about having the freedom to release it. Sure, maybe sometimes it comes across as weak, whiney or self pity. Who cares though? There have been times in my life I have just wanted to scream, "Does anybody care?" and not be met with accusations but instead love. Just someone to say that you are doing ok and they are glad you are in the world.
People are not looking for the fix in those threads but part of the fix is in the replies.

The furthest thing from my mind would be to divide this forum because of type. We are so very lucky to have the friends we have here of all types. None can stand alone. I guess I get my back up when I get the idea people want to fix in me what is inherently good.

I do personally view venting as a bad thing. It does nothing more than drag others into a situation they need not be involved in. Unless you are seeking constructive advice, ranting again and again about the trivials of life has no constructive purpose. Some people take anger and unleash it into art such as painting and building things. Others have sports. Others read, others sit and take a nice warm bubble bath.

"Small people talk about people.
Average people talk about things.
Great people talk about ideas."

It isn't necessary to talk about the negatives in life endlessly to others, just like it isn't required to share your success with everyone. Humans do not want to interact with other human beings to be barraged with others' problems to comfort them over and over again.

People express love and care every day, in many different forms. Others loving you may help, but peace comes from inside and there has to be an inner source of love. You must give to receive love, and venting is taking, not giving.

Again, opinion. But it is my opinion and I feel it very important to share with the forums because I believe it will help you. My advice has been asked over and over again on the threads that are crying out in desperation for a solution, and this, is my solution.

I would not offer advice had I not been asked. I know my boundaries, I know when to stand at the sidelines and watch instead of interview because of a possible foul. I have thought these things for a long time, and I am now just sharing them. I understand that a lot of you disagree with me, and that is fine. It is your choice.

You can lead a horse to a well but cannot force it to drink- especially if it is not thirsty for the water now but will be at a later time. Sometimes, timing isn't right about these things. But no one is going to delete my thread, it's going to remain here, and if any of you catch yourself contemplating that perhaps venting isn't the best thing to do in any given situation, here is where you will find some information that will feed your curiosity.

Are the answers I am offering different from the norm? Oh, absolutely. But are they radical? No. It is simply food for thought. A suggestion. Some good, solid, advice.

 

[slant]

isn't the whole forum already sort of centered around that premise?

No. I find the posts in most areas of the forum highly detrimental towards self improvement, finding that many of them actually worsen the improvement of self than nurturing growth and change in behaviors.

 

[NeverAmI]

No. I find the posts in most areas of the forum highly detrimental towards self improvement, finding that many of them actually worsen the improvement of self than nurturing growth and change in behaviors.

Do you have any examples? Hypothetical is fine.

People express love and care every day, in many different forms. Others loving you may help, but peace comes from inside and there has to be an inner source of love. You must give to receive love, and venting is taking, not giving.

Agreed, although if you haven't known a person for long or if you don't know their full context then it may seem more detrimental than it actually is. Some people are genuinely in a bad spot in this particular instant in their life and negativity can't help but spill out, because they are consumed.

When you have a problem that is all consuming, you have to work it out and generally the support and input of others you trust is important.

I was actually listening to a lecture on argumentation last night and the instructor mentioned about how, in a dialectical engagement, the arguments must, most of all, take the audience into account, because the audience is the target of the influence. In a situation like this, if you aren't close with some person and you offer advice, it may not be well received because you have not gained the trust of that person. Also, it is common that a spontaneous advice giver does not have the frame of reference that others do and so the negativity may be taken out of context.

That being said, if someone repeatedly puts themselves into a situation or seeks to complain without actually seeking to improve themselves or their surroundings, then they get no respect from me and I will not offer further assistance until they show they are ready to change.

Brute objective force and blind validation/justification have both proven to be detrimental when the conditions are right.

 

[Morgain]

No. I find the posts in most areas of the forum highly detrimental towards self improvement, finding that many of them actually worsen the improvement of self than nurturing growth and change in behaviors.

well, everyone deserves an opinion...

 

[slant]

Do you have any examples? Hypothetical is fine.



Agreed, although if you haven't known a person for long or if you don't know their full context then it may seem more detrimental than it actually is. Some people are genuinely in a bad spot in this particular instant in their life and negativity can't help but spill out, because they are consumed.

When you have a problem that is all consuming, you have to work it out and generally the support and input of others you trust is important.

I was actually listening to a lecture on argumentation last night and the instructor mentioned about how, in a dialectical engagement, the arguments must, most of all, take the audience into account, because the audience is the target of the influence. In a situation like this, if you aren't close with some person and you offer advice, it may not be well received because you have not gained the trust of that person. Also, it is common that a spontaneous advice giver does not have the frame of reference that others do and so the negativity may be taken out of context.

That being said, if someone repeatedly puts themselves into a situation or seeks to complain without actually seeking to improve themselves or their surroundings, then they get no respect from me and I will not offer further assistance until they show they are ready to change.

Brute objective force and blind validation/justification have both proven to be detrimental when the conditions are right.

Emotional Support section aside seeing as it is hidden in my current view of the forums, the main thing that I think is a problem is the lack of self improvement threads.

A lot of the threads that you would think are about self improvement are actually, in my perception, ‘complainer’ threads that aim at sharing experiences that are mostly negative yet failing to offer a solution. While self improving it’s important to focus on areas of progress and what one could do better.

“Pet Peeves When Communicating”
Link: http://forum.infjs.com/showthread.php?t=8500
This is a fine topic. It is natural to want to share what annoys or bugs you about communicating with others, I liked the content of the thread but the lack of a focus on what one could do to communicate better of deal with the frustration of these communication pet peeves is what shocked me.

This is one of the patterns I have noticed of the forums. There is plenty of sharing of woes, but not enough focus on the solution. That is why I suggest a self improvement area, I think it would encourage and nurture people to share problems that are solution oriented or suggestions to improve another’s quality of life. This is something that, may be visible in bits and pieces of the forum but are not really quite a focus. I’d like to hone on in that focus and potential and bring it out, like taking a fishing net from the sea and pulling a load of beautiful gems from the bottom of the ocean’s surface. The self improvement light of the forums is there, it just needs to be amplified.


“Bickering”
Link: http://forum.infjs.com/showthread.php?t=8890

The results of this thread were excellent, it was just lacking the pro-solution attitude. Again, we’re talking about a problem, not solving it. It turned into a ‘do you like or dislike bickering’ thread rather than something that’s really going to help and or support those seeking an answer to the reduction of bickering.

“Always worrying about what others think about me”
Link: http://forum.infjs.com/showthread.php?t=8984

This thread was open ended and not focused on the idea that, it really became a thread of relating rather than fixing.

Mainly, the reasons these threads aren’t doing it for me is that they are a slight echo of the emotional support threads; the pattern in the emotional support thread is venting for the purpose of support and relating, and the purpose of these types of threads that I have listed is for support and relating, lacking the venting, but still not constructive. There is no building upon or the ‘fixing’ part in support. That’s why it’s so important to get a self improvement area for topics that are specifically for fixing a problem or offering advice for the progression of your life at the state of point in your life. It could be a branch off of the spirituality sub forum, because spirituality sometimes has a lot to do with self improvement but sometimes it does not!

Maybe what I am saying sounds like petty remarks that don’t mean anything to you and are not relevant to your own experience of the forums. I really just believe an area where that frame of mind was expected and threads of that nature had certain guidelines that are either said or unsaid that the forums would be producing a lot more inspirational and life-challenging, life-changing tasks that would overall help all members of the forum.

 

[dark_angel]

I was chiefly struck by the statements surrounding the list. I'm actually pretty wary of trying to solicit any kind of emotional support in these forums for the reasons that you stated.

Occasionally it seems like people use the affirmation (which at times seems reflexive) as a drug of sorts, ignoring the bigger picture and how to make positive changes that they are fully capable of making in favor of wanting to hear someone say "You're right. I know how you feel. You're a great person! We love you!"

This is not to knock the more serious and compassionate members, as I do believe that your sentiments are for the most part genuine and heartfelt. But I do notice that some people tend to solicit affirmation without showing any signs of attempting to draw a relevant lesson from their own experiences or the advice given, simply stating "You guys are great!" only to come back the same day or the next day with a new dilemma that stems from the exact same emotional problem, ultimately repeating over and over again.

While I find this community to be quite interesting and stimulating, I do find it a bit overwhelming at times to be in the presence of so many people with similar personality types, and while I am drawn to present myself as a decent person to my fellow members, I remain wary of really opening up. I only have one real-life friend who is an INFJ, and I think that may be all I really need.

Getting into the habit of relying on an online community for emotional support is shaky territory in my personal opinion, but that is specifically from the viewpoint of a casual member who knows next to none of the other members, tenured or otherwise, in real life. From that viewpoint I dread to think of myself some day hugging a monitor, screaming "LOVE ME, INTERNETZ! CARESS MAH SOUL WIF UR GENTLE HANZ PLZ!!!1!1!" because I let gradually let the need for an orgy of affirmation and compliments undermine my own coping skills.

I can't really stress enough that my intention is not to belittle or insult anyone seeking support, or those giving it. I just think that slant hit on a point that resonated with my own thoughts as of late, and that it should be taken into consideration.

It's true that we shouldn't get too entrenched in the whole MBTI mentality because in doing that we constrain ourselves to a remarkable YET LIMITED conception of the motivations and workings of our minds based upon what is comparatively a fledgling field of study that has only taken root in the past century or so. I am not an INFJ, I'm a human being whose answers to a test put me into a certain category. My "type" does not define who I am nor does it dictate my behavior or my potential, but it can be all to easy to assume that it does.

Man, okay I'm running out of motivation here.

btw I DEMAND MOAR CONTINUASHUNZ OF SLANT AND PIERCE'S GARDENING ROLEPLAY!

+1

 

[Ria]

While I can understand your point in regards to making a subforum that is geared towards upbeat and positive feedback and eager acceptance and implementation of the requestee, please understand that often times, solutions can be given by others, but the individual needs to be ready in themselves to accept suggestions.

It is a comon judgment to make, when we see a certain person (or persons), seemingly talking about the same issue or complaining about the same pain, over and over again. This means that there is something deeper going on inside them, and the apparent surface message, is only a reflection of what they are willing to expose. Validation is always the best solution, and if others see that there is a reocurring problem, then perhaps asking further questions is needed, instead of offered suggestions, advice, "this is what I would do's", and any expressed frustration as it is dismissive. Through validation, people can feel safer to express more, as the message with validation, is that they are being heard and that they are safe. It builds trust. Many threads are of content which has me believe that the OP might need to seek professional help. This is a good start though, for being supported. This is what works for many of us here...(This is just going on my knowledge of human psychology).

I believe there is a lot going on within you, yourself and you have done a ton of work with your own self growth. I commend you on that Slant, and for 16, you're quite a smart girl! I understand your point of view, however, I am aware of the underlying sense of impatience that is behind your message in this thread. That's ok, it's how you feel. That's valid too. Just know that as you grow older and continue to experience more in life, sometimes you find you have come full circle and find yourself right back where you started, despite what you have learned. While I see you as wise beyond your years, I also see you as still having a lot to learn. (and I hope you don't take that the wrong way) because it was just stating a logical fact, as you are still young and will have a lot of life experiences to come. Again, thank you for your thoughts.

 

[slant]

While I can understand your point in regards to making a subforum that is geared towards upbeat and positive feedback and eager acceptance and implementation of the requestee, please understand that often times, solutions can be given by others, but the individual needs to be ready in themselves to accept suggestions.

It is a comon judgment to make, when we see a certain person (or persons), seemingly talking about the same issue or complaining about the same pain, over and over again. This means that there is something deeper going on inside them, and the apparent surface message, is only a reflection of what they are willing to expose. Validation is always the best solution, and if others see that there is a reocurring problem, then perhaps asking further questions is needed, instead of offered suggestions, advice, "this is what I would do's", and any expressed frustration as it is dismissive. Through validation, people can feel safer to express more, as the message with validation, is that they are being heard and that they are safe. It builds trust. Many threads are of content which has me believe that the OP might need to seek professional help. This is a good start though, for being supported. This is what works for many of us here...(This is just going on my knowledge of human psychology).

I understand this concept. I don't approve of it.

 

[slant]

I am from now on only posting in this thread, and nowhere else in the forums.

I have decided to share one last thing, because I believe it will aid the situation. If not, all of my resources will have been exhausted and I will have failed. I did not want to bring personal feelings into this thread much, but now I am going to.

I have, over the past month, spent a great deal of time on self improving myself and getting my life together. I have taken up every opportunity I have been given on the spur of the moment and stuck with them, I have started to visit the Mormon church and dabble into the Chrisitan church, I am going to start learning to be more spiritual and meditate. I have started a film program and am making a documentary. I maintain my organization's website, facebook, twitter and all other social networking media type websites. I film all of our events and I am going to be a human rights officer, signing up for college classes in april, for the summer quarter. All of this is maintained by a positive attitude. They say that what you dislike in other people is a mirror of yourself and your own traits. This is true for me. The INFJ forums were once a safe place for me, and now they have turned into a battleground. I see how I used to be in the members, what I am fighting against, the negativity, the lack of focus on the solution but rather support and sympathy. I am trying to create a safe place within the forums again. Without this, there is no place for me to go. I cannot maintain a membership in the INFJ forums. This is not to scare you or to threaten you. You all have seen a gradual decrease in my activity on the forum and that is because I have been busy---but in my freetime I have chose not to go on the INFJ forums and read inspirational things on the web instead because I find the INFJ forums are not helping me anymore. I am told that, if you have a problem, you tell the people before and see how they respond. After that you can move on to the next step. So I am telling the members of the INFJ forums this, to see the response. I will then proceed to the next step.

 

[Morgain]

think it is geat that you have grown the past few months and we could really see that on the forums!

I'm not sure what you are trying to do here but it seems to me that your needs have changed and you would like the forum to change as well.

to speak of myself I started here with a lot of emotional support treads. I needed to have these peoples opinions and experiences to finely come at ease with who I am. I have a lot of treads that are not supported by my environment but that doesn't mean I shoud look at them as a problem and try to solve them. I need to try to find a way to live my life to the fullest and to do that I have to do it my way and so need to come clean with myself. This forum has given me a lot of support and while the months passed by I felt more and more at ease with myself, showing the world more of myself instead of trying to fit in and surprisingly my environement welcomed me with open arms. Now I have not so much need to vent my problems and am I more capabable of giving support and advice to other members. The point I'm trying to make here (sorry it is getting so long) is that everyone is in an other stage of there development. Some are still in need of support and others have moved on and some others need again some support for a while. And I don't judge about them, I let them vent, try to help where I can and get from this place what I need.

so yo have to decide for yourself what you need, what you can/want give and whether this place can give you some satisfaction.

If you would like people to move on and improve there lives, why don't you go to the emotional support area and help people in this in a supportive and carying way with no judgements? Or start some topics about the interesting stuff you are reading online and tell us about it so we can learn from your experiences?

but I would hate to see you leave!

 

[slant]

I wanted to rep you Morgain but I do not have the ability for some odd reason.

 

[Raccoon Love]

Slant, I understand where you are coming from and I totally respect your argument but like Morgain stated, we are all in different stages. I am amazed by how much growth and maturity you are displaying and I know indeed you are trying to help, I totally admire and respect you for that. I know that at times we as members fall and complain, some of us still do so a lot, including myself but we know that through the aid of the forums we can grow and prosper. This forum is non judgmental and it has indeed helped me become more open, even though this improvements might be gradual I am noticing that I am indeed growing, I am becoming more open to others and I no longer want to change myself. Sure I fall and vent from time to time but I am noticing I don;t do it as much and I am noticing that a lot of members are also not doing it as much. We are all evolving and so are you. I would hate to see you leave. Your posts are indeed very enlightening, and you have many amazing qualities which you bring to the forum every day, do not ever forget that. Slant, I truly admire you for all the amazing things that you are.

 

[slant]

I think I am going to start a series of workshop threads when I have the time. I may not be the most responsive on them but I am very busy. Today I have a couple of hours though so I think I'll start that project.

 

[Trifoilum]

I can definitely see the merit of slant's advices.

And the double-edged effect of emotional comfort too.

Most of the times, both can't be ignored. I think the board's named Emotional Support & Advice, not Emotional Support, nor solely Advice. In a way, people need both. Sometimes both of them, when not combined with the other, could be a double-edged blade.

An advice without empathy, especially for people with Fs (or without label, generally more personal), would come across as cold and detached, and that's unfortunately what your thread had come across as. To generally understand or grasp the thread a cold head and rational thought is needed, which people who'd post in Emotional Support & Advice won't have in huge amounts.

But I can see the danger of empty emotional support (one that I'm seeing a lot here, is "You are a great person!"), too. It's hindering, as slant had said. For me, in the sense of comfort. Comfort leads to lack of growth. The feeling that you're 'safe', that you're still 'alright', that it'll come undone 'soon'.. can lead to an unending spiral of similar problems and a general sense of "why is this happening AGAIN?", while taking charge of their own lives, making a change, could change it all.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not criticizing your efforts, slant. In fact, I'm personally very happy to see this thread. (I can rephrase those into a slightly more 'docile' and supportive phrases too , so yeah) And there's no intentions of undermining your efforts, reasons, nor observation. But if I may summarize my comment about your thread, it'd be that it's more effective to accompany advices with supports, and vice versa.

And that's still..... Very, very theoretical, but that's what I'd seen. No intentions of attacking anyone, either the giver or the receptor, and feel free to disagree.