Political decay and extremism

[Lark]

Does anyone else get disappointed at how extreme political quarters can become? I've met libertarians on socialist and other forums who've seemed like interesting people, fun people, despite their politics, then they slowly become completely incapable of conversation, the two most marked trends I've observed are increasing rudeness not just to their perceived enemies but even to their own fellows or comrades, moderation is considered a vice and anyone showing it condemned and increasingly extreme examples, ie their taxes are akin to the holocaust.

Its not exclusive to libertarians but perhaps given the popularity or prevalence of free market libertarianism online presently, or as the political odd ball's choice, its most noticeable there. I remember in the nineties before marxism and socialism were finally eclipsed many of the trotskyist sects were good examples of what I'm talking about, including the "significantly more militanter than you" individuals who'd have to have had a party all of their own with followers before they'd be convinced of its "ideological purity".

There's a personal dimension to this too because there's people I used to converse with who're just jerks now and I miss the dialogue that was possible at a time.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Certain political views are more motivated by emotion than reason - so emotional outbursts and a lack of real communication are to be expected. The only form of communication acceptable to emotional idealism is heartfelt consensus.


Blah.

 

[Candice_XX]

[MENTION=4115]Lark[/MENTION] I think that you simply came to the point you both strongly disagree and frustration brings anger. It's much more easier to stay calm and polite when you are not passionate about something and people who made up their minds and chosen a non-majority opinion believe more strongly to their points.
Those who want to change something are, because of their position and not because of their nature, more aggressive.
I am not justifying this behaviour, I am just explaining it.
I am sure you can find lot of people (libertarians or others) you can discuss and they will not be rude. Especially at higher levels of education.

Certain political views are more motivated by emotion than reason.

I don't quite agree with that. I see what you are saying but that refers to the choice of one view rather than another view. People who are primarily emotional tend to be susceptible on arguments about solidarity, while people who are primarily logical tend to be susceptible on arguments about structure.
They are both arguments though. The implementation needs reason of course but that's a completely different discussion from setting the goals (and policy goals is the issue on which people have arguments most of the times).
When we come to the level of implementation the current situation seems more logical because it exists and it works, however it is needed exactly the same amount of accumulated and sophisticated logic to make something else work.

 

[just me]

Lark, my friend, it is so easy to call someone else a jerk when the shoe fits. It is very difficult to take a stand and try not to accept them as what we see them. We may be correct with our assessment, but there is a much higher ground to take above all that enabling even political arguments a much better chance of not digressing into "blah". It is a most difficult path, and few there be that find it. We are human.

The part bothers me the most is the digression of our political stability and understanding; our future and the future of those that follow us. It does indeed take special people with tempered minds and hearts to stand on a rock in a sea of trash, and try not to make waves. I see it rather refreshing when one person shows himself able to do so. For the most part, it is rather disappointing.

 

[Lark]

Those who want to change something are, because of their position and not because of their nature, more aggressive.
I am not justifying this behaviour, I am just explaining it.
I am sure you can find lot of people (libertarians or others) you can discuss and they will not be rude. Especially at higher levels of education.

Perhaps but I'm less and less convinced of that, I'll give an example, the same guy who I met trawling around socialist forums as an unashamed libertarian Johnny Cash fan, posting threads about booze, cannibas (his thing not mine) and good times, who even volunteered to mod for that site, and was outgoing enough to try and strike up conversations with fascists is today inviting close family and friends to leave his house immediately they express support for benefits or public health spending because the enemies of liberty should be given no quarter.

That's hard hearted and perhaps its just a US thing, there's nothing like the tea party or extremism like that elsewhere, it used to be the forty of socialists or hippies back in the day, perhaps the vehicle is just changed.

 

[Candice_XX]

Perhaps but I'm less and less convinced of that, I'll give an example, the same guy who I met trawling around socialist forums as an unashamed libertarian Johnny Cash fan, posting threads about booze, cannibas (his thing not mine) and good times, who even volunteered to mod for that site, and was outgoing enough to try and strike up conversations with fascists is today inviting close family and friends to leave his house immediately they express support for benefits or public health spending because the enemies of liberty should be given no quarter.

That's hard hearted and perhaps its just a US thing, there's nothing like the tea party or extremism like that elsewhere, it used to be the forty of socialists or hippies back in the day, perhaps the vehicle is just changed.

I don't understand your point, I guess you are bothered that his behavior is inconsistent with his claimed values. I do not know the story you are talking about but I know lot of conservatives who are very very bad people and lot of conservatives who are very very nice people and lot of libertarians who are very very bad people and lot of libertarians who are very very nice people. That's all.
People with dignity, prudence and seriousness come the same conclusions at the very end and they can cooperate.

and 100th post :cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:

 

[AhSver]

I met trawling around socialist forums as an unashamed libertarian Johnny Cash fan, posting threads about booze, cannibas (his thing not mine) and good times, who even volunteered to mod for that site, and was outgoing enough to try and strike up conversations with fascists is today inviting close family and friends to leave his house immediately they express support for benefits or public health spending because the enemies of liberty should be given no quarter.

That guy sounds pretty fun; I would drink some beer with him!

I think a lot of people into the far left are very eccentric. They are very idealistic too, pursuing things that many deemed to be unrealistic and impossible to achieve. But they just don't care, that's what they are standing for and for them these ideas are romantic and inspiring. They may not be very successful because their numbers are small and mainstream politics pretty much looks down upon them. However, that's their strength, they don't give up their visions!
As Candice_XX noted there are variety of people occupying all kinds of political groups. Plus, rudeness is something that is growing in prevalence in general due to the lack of proper education and degradation of culture.
U.S. does have some of the most aggressive politics. I have to agree with you. They are not extremists because of their religions or social views but extremists in the way they want to be rich and abuse the rest of the world to keep the American lifestyle going. But that's just my thought.

 

[manatee]

[The libertarian] is today inviting close family and friends to leave his house immediately they express support for benefits or public health spending because the enemies of liberty should be given no quarter.

Well, if his view is that taxation implies unjustified violence, it would make sense to not want to host people wanting to use violence against him, wouldn't it? ^^

The same thing goes for the moderation hate you mentioned earlier; if your political views are founded on strict morality and unambiguous principles, a "small" violation of them isn't as acceptable as it would be to a pragmatist.

 

[Lark]

Well, if his view is that taxation implies unjustified violence, it would make sense to not want to host people wanting to use violence against him, wouldn't it? ^^

The same thing goes for the moderation hate you mentioned earlier; if your political views are founded on strict morality and unambiguous principles, a "small" violation of them isn't as acceptable as it would be to a pragmatist.

That's the rationalisation, and yes it is a sign of militancy rather than pragmatism, although I dont know that militancy should go hand in hand with intolerance, ultimately showing someone the door who has expressed views which are anathema to yours is an act of capitulation and surrender, its just admitting that you cant persuade them, there's no hope of it and perhaps even you're afraid they'll persuade you.

It's illiberal in the philosophic or true sense, ie that outlined by John Stuart Mill in On Liberty, which I'd like to think is a point of consensus whatever you might feel about the economy and proper role of government. Mill was bigger on debate, even the possibility of being persuaded of a point you once rejected with good reason, than on defeating your opponent per se, I'd say that even Burke had some insight into this, suggesting that antagonists were useful, like a wrestler needs an opponent to develop their skill.

I'm not ragging on idealism, nor even militancy, just intolerance and a sort of polarisation. The US could erupt into middle class violence if this sort of trend carries on, it'd be as disasterous as every other revolution in history.

 

[bickelz]

The US could erupt into middle class violence if this sort of trend carries on, it'd be as disasterous as every other revolution in history.

As much as the political climate seeems like it would foster this action right now, I just can't see it happening imo. I can't imagine a revolution with the country being as obese as it is.