CindyLou
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Depends on which family of manuscripts you're talking about. You're just talking about the New Testament now, right?
Politician statement about so-called "legitimate" rape
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Depends on which family of manuscripts you're talking about. You're just talking about the New Testament now, right?
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While I see your point, no, it’s different because the cells are a different entity. They have not just the mother's cells in them, but the father's as well. If someone has a tumor growing out of them, then yes, cells are multiplying and dividing and thus it is life. But it is the same body, it is a closed system, I guess you could say, whereas as stated, the baby is an entirely new form of life.
Ok. I swear if you pull out this gay card one more time every single post I reply to will be a quip about getting back into the kitchen and wearing dresses that cover your ankles. Not because I'm like "oh wow they're making me feel guilty," but because its trying to change the topic. This thread is becoming too anti-saru, which as much as I dislike refreshing my forum menu and seeing 6 new thumbs down, and 3 new negative rep comments for being insensitive/cruel/whatever, I mean hey. I guess it doesn't pay to be different.
First, I will address the gay card but then its done and you can't pull it back out. If so I will deduct that from the winnings you take home at the end of the day. yes, I'm watching the Futurama episode last night about them going to the casino on mars. Its actually hilarious.
1) I do not think God finds homosexuality abominable in any way, I would go into detail, but you've already stated all of my beliefs are based on illogical ideologies, so I see no point in doing so.
2) I do not hate women. You may think I that's bs, as you've stated, but I can't do anything about that. I can only say what I believe deep down. Me being gay has nothing to do with how I feel about women, except for the fact that I think vaginas kind of look like spider faces, but that's just off topic.
3) "it’s all about how the woman is feeling" does not mean I'm calling it a.... What’s the word... vain? Decision. I understand that for many women who get an abortion think long and hard, and for most its a very painful thing do emotionally. I'm not saying its taken lightly, or as Santorum said women just want abortion so they can have sex like crazy and then prove it really costs $3,000 for contraceptives. What I'm saying is you guys are changing the words to make it sound less harsh than what it is, but yet spare no expense in calling me a hateful whatever.
4) "You're not a woman!" and you're not a man. And you're not gay (depending on the person), and you're not white, and you are not any of the things I am for many of the things that I am. Again, not downplaying the woman part of the calculation, nor saying "pssshhh how hard is it to cook a pie amirite????" What I am arguing for is that it does not matter whether or not I know what it’s like to be raped and then forced to give birth. I am arguing that murder is murder, no matter the person, stage of life, or anything else. I'm just as opposed to Dr. Kevorkian as I am to abortion. Never have I claimed I know what its like to be a woman. I am saying sometimes life, (god, a flying tea cup/spaghetti monster, gaia, pangea, you name it) gives us crappy cards and it’s all we can do to make it better.
I will say this, and then bold it and make it big and nice for everyone to read:
I am not of the position that abortion is a "fun thing do to in between manis and pedis," I am not saying that it is something pro-choice people long for and are so excited the day they can have it. I am not implying any of these things, INCLUDING that men have the right to tell women what to do, etc. What I am saying, is that no matter the circumstance, no matter how hard it is, murder is not the answer. Murder is never the answer. You can call me a hate spewing religious fanatic, despite the fact I've not brought that up, you guys have. You can call me anything, all it boils down to is the neighborhood bullies hating on the little runt on his tricycle because he believes differently. You can bully me all you want, but I'm not changing my mind.
Now, for those who say "think about the atheists who want to think for themselves!" I say "think about the Christians who do not want to see murder happening all around them!" To those who say "hey faggot, we let you have gay sex with all your leather buddies and you're not harming anyone, why bust an aortic ventricle because we're having an abortion?! Its our body!!" I say "well, if it really was your body and ONLY YOUR BODY I would not care. There's a little baby boy/girl/boy-girl inside of you."
(While this is can go in circles for infinity, the point is your asking for me to acknowledge that your side has validity, but then are saying my side does not. Which would be fine, except that the basis you are using to prove your sides validity is the old "who are you to tell me 'la-dee-da'" .... Flip the coin around and its just as unpleasant.
Seriously, get 16 inch gauges in your ears and tattoo your body to oblivion or whatever else you want to do, I don't care. Its your body, its your right to privacy. But when there is conception, it is no longer your body anymore until the baby has left it. You can hate me for believing differently, just don't go home and hate the conservatives for not letting gaybros get married, after all, you're not gay.
Now then, does anyone have any thoughtful stuff, I'd love to continue discussing in an honest 'debate/discussion' as to why you (you meaning the reader) believe in a pro-choice/pro-life argument. I will not however, stand for anymore pie throwing at the Christian faggot.
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No I am talking about the bible. Not the greek or russian orthodox bible, but King James bible that Christians follow. Even so, we can talk about any manuscripts you want... they were all written 100s of years after the last apostle died. And the religion was formed on the new testament. According to Christian lore, the new testament overwrites the old. And if you say you don't follow that, then its kind of hard to see you as a christian considering that thats what Christians follow/believe. The gnostic gospels, the gospel of Magdalene are not considered canon by Christians, havent been since the council of Nicea when they banned all that.
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What are you talking about? A virus is its own separate life form. Not only that but chances are if you get the virus from someone else it has traces of said person DNA in it, in fact all humans carry viral DNA. In fact in fact, the protein an unborn fetus created to attach to a woman's womb is the same exact protein a virus uses to infiltrate our cells. We inherited it from an ancestor who's body found it beneficial billions of years down our evolutionary path. You do believe in evolution right?
Let me put it another way. How would you feel, if I was a gay guy, and I raped you and gave you HIV and the government decided that all life is sacred including the HIV virus and you were not allowed to take any ARVs because we believed that god gives HIV out to "kill fags" and curing it would immoral since it deserves to run its course? Extreme I know, but thats how the rest of us feel when Christians push their lore on us and then try to pass laws around it.
Soulful
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Your sexuality shouldn't be used against you as a reason for your politics, but is it really necessary to get so defensive that you hurl out your own insults?
And for what it's worth, I went back and checked for thumbs down on your posts because something didn't sit right when I read your complaint. You have one thumbs up and one thumbs down. It infuriates me when people blow things out of proportion or claim false evidence. If you're getting hate elsewhere on the forum, then sorry to hear it but pretending it's here or making things up to get pity points in this thread is not okay or fair to anyone else, nor does it strengthen your case at all (whether or not it's seen as a lie). What do you really gain from it? You have a lot to offer as you are if you choose to embrace your strengths and employ them.
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acd
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That is very convenient for you. I didn't think so either, but it does mention it in the NT:
It is an offense that Paul later calls, "Worthy of death."
Feel free to cherry pick your beliefs to what suits you. But it becomes a problem when you apply your disjointed jigsaw ideology to other people's lives and bodies.
You do though. You make wise cracks--threaten me that you will tell me to get back in the kitchen and attempt to embarrass me by asking if I have PMS. Notice how I have not made fun of you for being gay, but I have pointed out the inconsistencies in your beliefs when it comes to morality and religion.
And I and many others who disagree with your worldview do not see abortion as murder. And many people do not believe in your God--let alone that any god is dealing "crappy cards" and that we should just put up with and accept whatever horrible violations and brutalities befall us. Very weak minded.
Classic tactic! Both you and Mr. Akin seem to have taken this stance in this debate: Claiming the victim status.
Yes, poor you. You are just so different, after all--and you're only following your convictions...
"Can't a man just tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body in the name of God? hmmph!"
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CindyLou
Get over it
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Every Bible you can buy today comes from the Sinaiticus or Vaticanus from Alexandria, Egypt or from the Antioch family pieces of Byzantine texts translated by Erasmus. I didn't know most xtians used the KJV. Prob because I'm a terrible Christian.
No, you're wording it weird. They were written in the first generation while the eyewitness were still alive.
No, the New Testament completes the old. It does not overwrite it.
Are we gonna be in trouble for derailing?? I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just bored and like to argue sometimes.
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Every Bible you can buy today comes from the Sinaiticus or Vaticanus from Alexandria, Egypt or from the Antioch family pieces of Byzantine texts translated by Erasmus. I didn't know most xtians used the KJV. Prob because I'm a terrible Christian.
No, you're wording it weird. They were written in the first generation while the eyewitness were still alive.
No, the New Testament completes the old. It does not overwrite it.
Are we gonna be in trouble for derailing?? I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just bored and like to argue sometimes.
So youre telling me you can read old greek? Because I am pretty sure the English versions of the bible were not translated from Greek but were translated from the English version (King James bible) For example if you go into any US court of law the bible all presidents swear on etc is a King James bible. And even so, the ancient Greek versions of the bible were written and translated 500-600 years after the death of christ, picking and choosing the gospels they found to be canon. By the way Erasmus translated his version of the bible in what, the 1500s? it was the foundation for the King James bible. So in a way you are agreeing with me when you say that the bibles used are his, and I say its all about the KJV although there were revisions of that written in the 1950s which dont seem to have caught on so well.
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/#timeline
This is a fun quote on the Erasmus bible.
None of the bible was written by Jesus or any of his apostles, making all gospels basically hearsay. That's a legal term
Now there were something like 5 or 6 councils to find out which books would go into the bible and how much of the original Jewish text they wanted to use. My point is that it was all politically motivated, especially at the council of Nicea where the emperor literally paid off the church leaders. By the way his name was Constantine... his seat of power was... Constantinople... which became the... Byzantine empire. And I dont think you have any evidence of these 1st hand eyewitnesses. And what exactly did they witness? The miracles of Christ? How could that be if the gospels were written long after his death?
The new testament erases the old covenant with god, and replaces it with the new. Its how modern day Christians attempt to wash away the bigotry, misogyny shellfish eating tomfoolery, homosexuality sinfulness etc of the OT. If you are telling me that it didnt replace that, then as a Christian you must agree that working on Saturday is a sin punishable by death, that homosexuality is a sin punishable by death, that eating shellfish, YEP punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION IN HELL!
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@CindyLou I dont see how talking about the bible is off topic... people are using this dreadful screed to deny other human beings their individual rights. IMO if one can get to the bottom of the core of the problem (christian morality) brought on by such a book, it makes sense that its on topic. I may not be able to prove that there is no God but one can certainly prove that the bible is a pile of crap written by 100s of authors over 1000s of years, and that it disagrees with itself, has no fundamental order or value as a historically accurate text.
Oh also, the Old Testament sucks too, it was written by Jews in capitivity in Babylon who wanted to differentiate themselves from the Babylonians. Its no wonder that all the demons named in the original OT are actually Babylonian Gods... when I was 13 and learned that I was instantly turned off to the OT, they didn't even have the creativity to make up new names! I mean what the fuck! Besides Babylonian gods were way more awesome.
Oh and I loved when Hell got added to the bible, it was fucking Tartarus! The realm of punishment that HADES GREEK god of DEATH ruled... Jesus comes in and "frees" all the souls... I mean this passed for belief back then I am NOT joking!
Lets not forget that there was:
A. No Moses... seriously... consider that for a moment.
B. No jews in captivity in Egypt
C. No crossing the red Sea...
seriously!
Oh also, the Old Testament sucks too, it was written by Jews in capitivity in Babylon who wanted to differentiate themselves from the Babylonians. Its no wonder that all the demons named in the original OT are actually Babylonian Gods... when I was 13 and learned that I was instantly turned off to the OT, they didn't even have the creativity to make up new names! I mean what the fuck! Besides Babylonian gods were way more awesome.
Oh and I loved when Hell got added to the bible, it was fucking Tartarus! The realm of punishment that HADES GREEK god of DEATH ruled... Jesus comes in and "frees" all the souls... I mean this passed for belief back then I am NOT joking!
Lets not forget that there was:
A. No Moses... seriously... consider that for a moment.
B. No jews in captivity in Egypt
C. No crossing the red Sea...
seriously!
CindyLou
Get over it
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So youre telling me you can read old greek? Because I am pretty sure the English versions of the bible were not translated from Greek but were translated from the English version (King James bible) For example if you go into any US court of law the bible all presidents swear on etc is a King James bible. And even so, the ancient Greek versions of the bible were written and translated 500-600 years after the death of christ, picking and choosing the gospels they found to be canon. By the way Erasmus translated his version of the bible in what, the 1500s? it was the foundation for the King James bible. So in a way you are agreeing with me when you say that the bibles used are his, and I say its all about the KJV although there were revisions of that written in the 1950s which dont seem to have caught on so well.
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/#timeline
This is a fun quote on the Erasmus bible.
None of the bible was written by Jesus or any of his apostles, making all gospels basically hearsay. That's a legal term
Now there were something like 5 or 6 councils to find out which books would go into the bible and how much of the original Jewish text they wanted to use. My point is that it was all politically motivated, especially at the council of Nicea where the emperor literally paid off the church leaders. By the way his name was Constantine... his seat of power was... Constantinople... which became the... Byzantine empire. And I dont think you have any evidence of these 1st hand eyewitnesses. And what exactly did they witness? The miracles of Christ? How could that be if the gospels were written long after his death?
The new testament erases the old covenant with god, and replaces it with the new. Its how modern day Christians attempt to wash away the bigotry, misogyny shellfish eating tomfoolery, homosexuality sinfulness etc of the OT. If you are telling me that it didnt replace that, then as a Christian you must agree that working on Saturday is a sin punishable by death, that homosexuality is a sin punishable by death, that eating shellfish, YEP punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION IN HELL!
No, you're mistaken about where the English translations come from. No, the KJV is not where the other English versions are translated from. No no no. Out of the pieces of Greek texts came three groups of manuscripts. Most of the versions you get today come from two groups of manuscripts. No, that's not right.
No. Where did you get that? That is not true. When Constantine wanted to start his religion he used the Alexandrian manuscript...he didn't use the one that was in Antioch.
How could you possibly wash away how the people acted in the OT? So, if I say that the NT completes the OT then I "must" agree with what you say the OT is all about? Why should I do that?
CindyLou
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Apone
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Ahhhh... that makes sense then. But still, I would have thought that even they would have drawn the line at teaching 13th century 'science' as factual. I only brought up Alberta because they're notorious for being very right-wing.
Soulful
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Alberta is rather conservative, I think. I don't know about religion and education in B.C., but ironically B.C. (Alberta's neighbour to the West) is known as being the tree-hugging, granola eating province of Canada, or the California of the North, and not at all conservative. I don't know how many British Columbians conceptualize themselves in that way (I'd guess not an overwhelming majority), or whether it only applies to certain areas.
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@Billy...Read it already. I have it here...marked up with his errors.
Really? incredible, did you publish your version with the corrections? You may be sitting on a gold mine that the Christians will eat up. Care to post some of your corrections?
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I'm actually at a loss for words. Well no, I had a couple phrases I thought I'd pull out, but none of them seem to fit.
1) lol. I threatened to tell you to get back into the kitchen? bitch, please.
2) I tried to embarrass you by asking if you were on your period? bitch, please.
3) You're convinced on not answering a single one of my claims? bitch please.
4) You've not made fun of me, threatened me, or tried to embarrass me for being gay? bitch, please.
5) So everything I believe is wrong because I'm gay and so is a shitty music star? bitch please.
6) It literally does not matter what I say because ironically this is one of the most close midned forums I've ever been on? Hmm.
7) Need I say again you're mentioning god not me?
or do you not fucking get it yet.
yeah, i can be that gay bro who says bitch please.
Your move, Sandra Fluke!
CindyLou
Get over it
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Well, I quickly start off with his assumption that Erasmus didn't have the best set of texts because I'm lazy and don't want to go upstairs and get the book. He bases the entire book off of that. Why?
[MENTION=1451]Billy[/MENTION] I'm sure other people have my opinion. That book is marketed to new-atheists. Its new-atheist literature. It doesn't have to be correct. No one will check it out.
[MENTION=1451]Billy[/MENTION] I'm sure other people have my opinion. That book is marketed to new-atheists. Its new-atheist literature. It doesn't have to be correct. No one will check it out.