[PAX] Power Philosophy

[jn56uytrx]

How do you rate your experience of social power? Do you feel you have the power to affect your environment? While not an absolute yes/no, since I believe everyone has some degree of social power, do you feel you have sufficient social power to meet your needs, or do you feel that you are always struggling to establish yourself against those you view as having more power?

If you feel you have social power that meets your needs, what tools or acts do you engage in that afford you this power?

If you don't feel you have enough social power to meet your needs, do you think this is a situation based in reality, or do you think you limit yourself by not taking advantage of the social resources you have?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I've become aware of the degree to which I have previously relied on passive mechanisms of social power that as I age are diminishing in effectiveness. I'm realizing that I developed, through experience in youth, a fear of those who use coercive power. I tend to believe their power extends far beyond what their actual power reach might be because I experienced for so many years no escape from their power reach, regardless of action taken. I learned that my own power resource with them was to submit or retreat. It has become my default response to power. I have used this to some effectiveness throughout my life, but it has created in me a pattern of withdrawal from situations in which I do not feel I have sufficient power. The thing is, I'm reaching a point in my life where I've covered enough territory in retreat that I now realize there is no where that there is not someone with power sufficient to overwhelm me.

I'm realizing I want to learn to be more powerful, but because of my early experience, I abhor intrusive forms of power that would impede another person's experience without their comfortable consent. Perhaps I need to get over this, but I hope not.

I guess I'm just looking for an exploration of people's experience of power. How do you experience your own tools of power? How do you exercise power when you are in a situation where you believe others have greater power than you? Is there such a thing as true powerlessness? What about effective powerlessness?

Here's a wikipedia on power (philosophy). Feel free to discuss this on a personal experience basis or a philosophical basis. I may not contribute a lot, but I will be reading and thinking about whatever anyone can offer.

Also, if anyone has something they'd like to contribute, but doesn't feel comfortable posting publicly, I'd be very open to pm's on the topic.

Thanks.

 

[Wyote]

I find this really interesting because I believe I have incredibly strong passive power, but it only really gets me so far in certain situations. I've started to work on a different approach which isn't exactly coercive, but it is not at all passive. I guess what I am in the process of doing is simply removing the passive nature to be more direct in my journey toward whatever goal I undertake. Once I am comfortable with this I may approach coercion, but that still feels very negative to me.

 

[Griffin]

I don't know how it works as you get older and, as I've heard, people are more balanced, but still in my teenage years, some of my friends of the same age range don't have the social grace in certain manners, which wouldn't be as much of a problem if others realized this and saw a minor faux pas as just that.
As it stands, I put out a lot of potential fires in my group of friends, and stop others from burning out of control. In a calming respect, I have a good bit of power to keep things from getting out of hand when certain people interact in certain ways with certain other people (certainly!).
Because of this, if I ever really do need to step on someone's toes to get something done I feel is really important, it's apparent that it's really important to me and people are more amiable with my direct requests than with those of other people's.

 

[the]

make people laugh while you boss them around. works for me.

 

[Neuropedia]

I like this topic.

Research so far has been inconclusive.

 

[just me]

Is it possible to not have a power mentality?

 

[jn56uytrx]

Is it possible to not have a power mentality?

Do you think it is?

 

[just me]

Do you think it is?

Yes, [MENTION=7]tovlo[/MENTION], I do. I deleted the rest of my post leading up to this to make it simple. I also believe the servant of all will be the master of all. That really does not mean I believe there is power in servitude, though. I do believe there is a more subservient way of addressing things without seeking power. There may very well be power in an honest man's words and deeds. That power I believe is there for the taking, though, should one wish to drink of it.

When I think about social politics, I see power in honesty but it must be mixed with wisdom and knowledge of the subject.

I also do not believe retreating is a show of less power. It takes a bigger man to not return a smack in the face. To bridle and harness one's power, possibly hiding it, can show what I see to be true power. Control of self should come before trying to control others. jmo. Sorry I did not give this more time but will stop in now and then and possibly try to add more later.

 

[Phoenix Down]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjyVlj_q1k0&feature=related"]YouTube - Kristin Chenoweth Sings My New Philosophy[/ame]

 

[donkeybals]

Is it possible to not have a power mentality?

Everyone has the need for power. It's not a bad thing. People just use different methods..

Based on one of your posts, you think it's more powerful to not return a smack in the face. That's where you are getting your powerfulness from.

 

[bamf]

I think I generate a lot of my social power from disarming people, and beating them to the "punch" so to speak.

When I am in confrontation with someone who holds power over me in a social situation, I generally try and speak first, which sometimes disarms them almost immediately. I try to temporarily befriend my aggressor by either agreeing with them to an extent that surprises them, but also holding my ground, or changing the subject entirely.

I think my job has really helped me develop the intricate people skills needed to disarm individuals with threatening or opposite power. I've learned to talk my way out of many situations, and how to talk people into supporting my power in the situation even if they initially opposed it. Killing them with kindness works more than it doesn't. Sympathy goes a good distance as well.

When that doesn't work, I'll stand my ground, and sometimes I lose.

 

[just me]

Everyone has the need for power. It's not a bad thing. People just use different methods..

Based on one of your posts, you think it's more powerful to not return a smack in the face. That's where you are getting your powerfulness from.

I agree power can be not bad. Please do not think I meant it to be bad.

I think it takes more self control to not return a smack in the face. Self control can be read wrong by others, thus making null and void any power's presence to them. Others that understand self control may look at it as power, but I see it as not using one's power.

I said bridling and harnessing one's power, possibly hiding it, can show what I see to be true power. This shows those who know self control and the lack of it the possibility you have the capabilities of holding back what you could use. Maybe my use of "true power" there is a poor choice of words. Forgive my choice of words.

 

[donkeybals]

I didn't, no worries. Some people may view power as a bad thing though, "That guy is power hungry" in reference to a guy acting like a d bag --> sheep (bahhh) in wolf's clothing.

...

I said bridling and harnessing one's power, possibly hiding it, can show what I see to be true power.

Kind of like my last analogy, but opposite.

 

[Nixie]

I think you become more aware of power when you hold it. I know I felt different when I was a supervisor. I also feel different now that I am a union steward.

 

[just me]

@tovlo, I just cannot imagine your riding around town in a very small electric car while everyone else drives Dodge Chargers with V-8 engines. If you did, though, you may actually be conserving more energy than the rest of them. They may be spending more energy, sounding more powerful, getting there faster, and everything else. They may even look down at you while sitting at a traffic light. You may have to "eat their dust" on a dry day back on a dirt road. Don't seek that which you abhor, but possibly view your conserving energy as a plus. I feel you are feeling to be this way for reasons that may very well reveal themselves to you at a later time. After all, someone has to do it.

 

[just me]

I just had to post this pic here this AM. It hopefully will speak my thoughts.

and other thoughts...
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySK0fIGB3AA"]YouTube - Forest Gump - Running on Empty[/ame]

I don't wish to take away from all the different thoughts from those scenes. I do wish to make certain at least one thought is noticed and thus shared.
Forrest was told to just run, Forrest, run all his life. He was told to run away from trouble in war. He did just that. However, he realized he had left behind something very important to him when he ran like he was told. What did he do? He ran back and used his ability to run to save several of those he had left behind.

 

[Nixie]

For some reason, I continued to think about this thread after I left. I will elaborate on some of my thoughts.
First of all, I think power is something only recognized when it is used, otherwise it doesn't really exist. The interaction and exercise of power requires two people, even if words aren't spoken. Power is exercised. I think it is the interpretation of the use of that power by both parties that becomes the sticking point. If you assume that you are "submitting" to power then you have taken a negative connotation toward the interaction. (in the generally accepted understanding of submission) If you feel you have no choice (and that is more likely that all other choices are totally unacceptable--like losing your job cause you got into it with a supervisor) then you are also bringing in the negative connotation to the interaction.

I have been thinking about the "language" we use in our lives. I think if you concentrate on allowing yourself to live the language of negativity, then you are teaching yourself how to see the world and others on how to see you. While it is impossible to erase all negative things from your life, I will say that you would be surprised at how much of that negativity is your own making. I think it is possible to interact with someone and not allow them to stamp their negativity on you. You say withdraw like it is a bad thing. You want to become more assertive that is a different thing. A successful strategy takes into account the things that are important to you. If you wish to avoid conflict and feel happier without that in your life, why does withdrawing have to be bad? I believe the stronger path the well being lies within rather than without. You can't change everyone else but you can change how you feel and act.

I also think that the exercise of that power and the way people see it is the key. What is the difference between convincing and manipulation? Forceful and charismatic? It is nothing more than the language identifier and the subsequent connotation of that identifier that is the difference.

As to myself. I have a strong personality. I have been called all those things and more. The only difference in how I exercise my social power is that it is tempered with my strong sense of honor or duty. If I am determined to get my way, nothing and nobody will stand in my way....my INTJ self would rule the world!!! That being said, the thing that tempers those desires is the understanding that what goes hand in hand with power is responsibility.

 

[gps]

How do you rate your experience of social power?
Do you feel you have the power to affect your environment?
While not an absolute yes/no, since I believe everyone has some degree of social power,
do you feel you have sufficient social power to meet your needs,
or do you feel that you are always struggling to establish yourself against those you view as having more power?

I rate `social power' right up there with unicorns and the concept of `management',
given that the first myth of management -- as well as `social power' -- is that it exists.

If you feel you have social power that meets your needs, what tools or acts do you engage in that afford you this power?

I've found that with interpersonal power I rarely need `social' power.
There's a big difference between the person-to-person manifestation of mutual empowerment
and the Mongolian cluster fuck phenomena which arise when 3 or more people interact concurrently.

If you don't feel you have enough social power to meet your needs,
do you think this is a situation based in reality,
or do you think you limit yourself by not taking advantage of the social resources you have?

Needs?
The moment you injected `social' into the equation my `needs' and `rights' were transmogrified into whims and mere privileges beheld by those imagining themselves `in' social/political power.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately.
I've become aware of the degree to which I have previously relied on passive mechanisms of social power that as I age are diminishing in effectiveness.
I'm realizing that I developed, through experience in youth, a fear of those who use coercive power.

I tend to believe their power extends far beyond what their actual power reach might be because I experienced for so many years no escape from their power reach, regardless of action taken.
I learned that my own power resource with them was to submit or retreat.
It has become my default response to power.
I have used this to some effectiveness throughout my life,
but it has created in me a pattern of withdrawal from situations in which I do not feel I have sufficient power.
The thing is, I'm reaching a point in my life where I've covered enough territory in retreat that I now realize
there is no where that there is not someone with power sufficient to overwhelm me.

Hmmm ....
Seems it really YOU which might be overwhelmed?
Or something akin to your desires, wants, whims, needs ... agenda?
If `overwhelmed' does not result in death then what meaning does `overwhelmed' have for you?

I'm realizing I want to learn to be more powerful, but because of my early experience,
I abhor intrusive forms of power that would impede another person's experience without their comfortable consent.
Perhaps I need to get over this, but I hope not.

How, prey tell, does one unilaterally `impede' another's `experience'?
I influence your experience and you influence mine.
Where does impedance enter into this?

I guess I'm just looking for an exploration of people's experience of power.
How do you experience your own tools of power?
How do you exercise power when you are in a situation where you believe others have greater power than you?
Is there such a thing as true powerlessness?
What about effective powerlessness?

I've expressed my primary `tool of power' to others with the phrase, "I've found it easier to change my mind than change reality."
I have the power to differentiate between `The map' and `the territory', between my mental maps and models of The Real World and the TRW itself.
Precepts and concepts fronted by words and phrases are powerful tools too.
As is my power to refute the premises of powerfully formulated suppositions.

Effective powerlessness is a phrase I lump in with military intelligence, jumbo shrimp, and frigid nympho.
If you're effective you HAD the power to effect your effects.

I used to attend meetings of 12-step cult derived from AA called Emotions Anonymous.
I used to marvel at how the victims-in-perpetuity apparently experienced personal power by proclaiming their powerlessness vis-a-vis their `emotions' (EG changed from `alcohol' in the AA dogma and doctrine).
I used to have some fun with the `old timers' by supplanting the boiler plate intro involving an admission of `powerless over my emotions' with "Hi. My name is Gene and I'm empowered by my emotions."

Here's a wikipedia on power (philosophy).

Given the propensity of very few lovers of wisdom to actually PRACTICE wisdom I'll provide by way of contrast this wiki page:
Power_(Physics)

By way of the `sophia' nested within the term philo-sophia I consider it wiser to discern between physics and metaphysics -- which qualifies as a philosophical distinction among would-be philosophers.
Physical (as in `of or relating to physics and/or the physical world') power as per the practice of empiricists must meet criteria for existence before it is held to exist in the physical world.
Not so with Power_(philosophy).
Once people start talking about personal, interpersonal, social, or political power the universe of discourse deviates from `having mass' or `having energy' as criteria for existence, it seems.
Rather, we're off into the surreality of projective tests and apperceivable themes.

If someone has power or powerlessness attributed or ascribed to him, her, or them then mass hallucination, consensus reality, and Folie