premarital sex and hookup culture

[alice144]

Maybe the men don't know what they're doing or something.

I don't know, but it doesn't seem like there's any evolutionary incentive for it to go away. Probably the guys are okay, it's just my shitty hormones.

Read the Baumeister thing a little. You're not going around looking for the most misogynistic crap you can find on the internet are you?

Did you read the blog or the link? I didn't read the paper so much myself, but, whatever the motivation, the tone seemed sufficently academic.

 

[Lerxst]

If you don't have sex before marriage... how do you know? You're always going to wonder. It's going to eat away and pry at you, while being too late to do anything about. Do you like just because you're supposed to? Better off getting it over with and knowing, than always wondering if you made the right choice.

 

[ThomasJ79]

The females in my family always told me,"You don't buy a pair of shoes without trying them on first." They were from the seventies though.

I think there is nothing morally wrong with having sex before marriage. I think it is morally wrong though to not be honest about carrying a sexually transmitted diseases or not telling a partner that you are having sex with someone else. Trust, honesty, and commitment are virtues that still matter, even in today's age. Our society is incredibly complex, much more than say the pre-industrial West. It takes much more time and resources to prepare adults to be fully functioning in the modern world. In order to establish oneself, you have to go through educational programs that last at least until your early twenties. Then maybe you can think about starting a family. Most people have an active interest in sex much, much before that time and that is due to our genetics. We evolved to reproduce at a much earlier age. It is no longer feasible to start having children so early in life, but does that mean we need go ten years without experiencing sex for the first time. I personally do not think so. I think if you keep a level head and be responsible in doing so, that it is perfectly normal and healthy. I personally find having very a few partners over longer periods of time as most preferable to the hook-up culture though because I think that culture contributes greatly to public health concerns.

 

[Skathac]

Dear infjs,
What are your views on premarital sex and 'hookup culture'?
Is it good? Is it bad?
If you can be bothered, take a look at this article.

I realize this is a controversial topic, but all the same I hope that everyone can remain respectful in responding.
Thanks.

Not really into the revolving door of a different partner every other night sort of thing but my personal feelings are that you have to be sure that the pie you choose to be with for the rest of your life is pie you are going to enjoy every day for the rest of your life...that pie is gonna change and will likely not be the exact same pie that you loved twenty plus years down the road, but you gotta love how the pie gets better with age too. I use pie for an analogy but, I really REALLY like pie. Alas...I am pieless.

 

[MrDoobie]

reduces us to the level of animals

I would argue that we are animals. So why not?

I don't see anything wrong with having a lot of anonymous sex, however, there are rather troublesome elements to the scene that have developed within the culture. For example, Pick-Up Artists are a product of hook-up culture, and PUA practice typically runs the gamut from just misogynist to flat out monstrous. The general reducing a partner to a set of genitals prime for manipulating is also troubling, but this is hardly something that came as new with hook-up culture. And then there's the whole thing where your average college-age male feels like he's not getting enough sex, because he thinks all his friends are getting way more, and this can lead to a variety of self-esteem problems. Not sure if the last one is particular to "hook-up culture" or males as it's based off of my own experience with college-age males. The girls I know seem fairly chill about it.

 

[hk427f3]

And then there's the whole thing where your average college-age male feels like he's not getting enough sex, because he thinks all his friends are getting way more, and this can lead to a variety of self-esteem problems.

I think this is something that people don't talk about nearly enough.

 

[Barnabas]

If you don't have sex before marriage... how do you know? You're always going to wonder. It's going to eat away and pry at you, while being too late to do anything about. Do you like just because you're supposed to? Better off getting it over with and knowing, than always wondering if you made the right choice.

Wat?

 

[this is only temporary]

Oh, hey, I gave you the wrong one. I was trying to direct you to the Baumeister paper, here.

Oh wow, I totally didn't read that page at all. :der:

Hah! Okay, well that paper is definitely better than the poon hunting blog from the guy who calls the civil rights act the "1965 soft genocide act"...

Briefly, I think it is interesting to define sexuality in marketplace terms, and there is probably some truth in it. Maybe a little outdated, but still, we all know gold diggers, they exist. But the whole thing is complicated by the fact that the study assumes women are solely "sellers" and men solely "buyers" .

I suspect the data for a number of reasons, one big one being that men are socially pressured to over-report and women to under-report their sex drive. (Meaning, you get called a slut -- for women -- or you're considered less than macho -- for men -- if you say you like or don't like sex that much.) The study even mentions this:

Because much sexual activity is conducted in secret, there is likely to be considerable ambiguity about what the actual norms are.

So I think a lot of the data was maybe a little incomplete or perhaps exaggerated?

It also seems to completely ignore the fact that women and men might actually like each other for reasons other than sex, which I think is both untrue and more than a little sad.

More precisely, men will give women more resources for sex when men outnumber women than when women outnumber men.

If this is true, I think moving to China might be an advantageous move for an attractive young woman.

 

[DiscipleOfJesus]

I Agree with Flavus Aquila. Sex after marriage connects body, mind and spirit. It's way better that only body with the possibility to be dropped off at any time.

 

[Korg]

If you don't have sex before marriage... how do you know? You're always going to wonder. It's going to eat away and pry at you, while being too late to do anything about. Do you like just because you're supposed to? Better off getting it over with and knowing, than always wondering if you made the right choice.

^this. At least if I'm understanding Lerxst correctly.

I mean, maybe it's just me but I don't think anyone really knows their sexuality until they actually start having sex. Maybe part of the idea of saving it for marriage is to mutually discover that world with someone but I didn't realize what I really liked or didn't like until I had some experience to weigh against any assumptions or ideals. The thought of blindly rolling the dice on that and hoping I don't wind up with someone incompatible is really scary - cause I know that's just not something I (or I imagine most people) find wildly negotiable in a relationship. Perhaps that can be sussed out to an extent of ahead of time via talking, but no more than two people discussing what kind of steaks they want when they've never eaten one.

So no regrets there.

As far as hookup culture, well, it's worth exploring just for a short bit when you're young, I think - if you're careful (STD's) and never get too caught up in it, anyway. I look back at that time in my life and cringe a lot because... Jesus...just being that guy. But by the same token, I'm glad I won't turn old and wonder why I'd never gotten off my ass, gone out and connected with women that way because, at the core of it, it's a foundational part of being human and alive; just the desire to fuck and seek that out. Who wants to miss such a central part of the human experience? I didn't. At least not to the extent I'd be an old man wondering what it would've been like to actually fuck to satiety instead of just staying in my room, alone watching a paid actress on a monitor.

 

[Lerxst]

^this. At least if I'm understanding Lerxst correctly.

I mean, maybe it's just me but I don't think anyone really knows their sexuality until they actually start having sex. Maybe part of the idea of saving it for marriage is to mutually discover that world with someone but I didn't realize what I really liked or didn't like until I had some experience to weigh against any assumptions or ideals. The thought of blindly rolling the dice on that and hoping I don't wind up with someone incompatible is really scary - cause I know that's just not something I (or I imagine most people) find wildly negotiable in a relationship. Perhaps that can be sussed out to an extent of ahead of time via talking, but no more than two people discussing what kind of steaks they want when they've never eaten one.

So no regrets there.

As far as hookup culture, well, it's worth exploring just for a short bit when you're young, I think - if you're careful (STD's) and never get too caught up in it, anyway. I look back at that time in my life and cringe a lot because... Jesus...just being that guy. But by the same token, I'm glad I won't turn old and wonder why I'd never gotten off my ass, gone out and connected with women that way because, at the core of it, it's a foundational part of being human and alive; just the desire to fuck and seek that out. Who wants to miss such a central part of the human experience? I didn't. At least not to the extent I'd be an old man wondering what it would've been like to actually fuck to satiety instead of just staying in my room, alone watching a paid actress on a monitor.

Yep. I was just in my lazy mode...

As much of a moral ideal it is people wish to make out of it for various reasons, sex is one of the most basic, primal drives a living creature can have. It's not something that can be talked through, or rationalized. If it's bad, it's going to leave a gaping hole in the relationship that isn't just going to go away. If you hear people talking and you wonder, "Why haven't I ever seen/heard/witnessed/experienced that?" and you have no way to judge what's good or bad, it's going to create doubt and again, that hole in the relationship opens up.

Better to get it out of the way, figure out what you like or don't like, what's good and what's bad and get the most basic component of the compatibility between two people out of the way. After that, let your brains take over and start deciding if you can spend the rest of your lives together

 

[Apone]

Read the Baumeister thing a little. You're not going around looking for the most misogynistic crap you can find on the internet are you? Honestly, that's not a great idea, because that is going to give you a very skewed idea of reality. It would be like relying solely on Fred Phelps for your idea of religion. Hardly mainstream.

Yeah, it was pretty bad-- and not even as bad as the editor's comments, which were just vulgar.

I don't think premarital sex/hookup is because of feminism OR male insecurity (if either of those were the point of posting the article). People have sex because it feels good, and because all of the reasons that we used to have for not doing it are being challenged and rejected by society. We're coming off of centuries of repression in the name of a 'spiritual' ideal that has little to no bearing on reality. We're sexual beings... it's not like people are making logical, calculated decisions with their nads. This isn't to say that everyone is promiscuous at heart, because there are plenty of benefits to marriage/commitment that have nothing to do with social influences-- some people genuinely do want to 'possess' each other... it's not one way/oppression if you genuinely can't get enough of each other.

But I think that the hard economic times and uncertainty about the future have made people more uneasy about pursuing commitments-- mostly out of fear that they'll be unable to provide for their families, or that they'll disappoint the people they care about, or that they're just not good enough and maybe the people they love would do better with someone else. For some people, casual sex seems like a reasonable alternative to the monumental failure of losing/hurting someone that you actually care about. By keeping it casual, no one ever has to find out how weak and terrified you are inside.

Marriage is a huge commitment with a lot of responsibilities and sacrifices, and you really have to work at it to make it last-- and that doesn't appeal to some people. Even people who get married don't realize this. The idea of there being a natural set of parameters or rules between married people is stupid... you have to grow and adapt to each other's needs and concerns and value your commitment and love of the other person more than petty trivial bullshit or your own ego and stuff like that. Part of growing up is realizing that there is more to life than just doing what makes you feel good, and rediscovering what it was that made you love each other/trying to understand each other instead of just giving up on ever being a decent human being.