Pro-life or Pro-choice?

The belief in the existence of a literal human soul is a religious and spiritual belief, which requires faith that it even exists. Even so, not all religions believe that the soul penetrates the zygote at conception. Look at the Catholic Church for example. A successive line of infallible Popes used to believe that the soul entered the human body at birth. You could kill a fetus in the womb in the Middle Ages and not be condemned to Hell for all eternity. Now the position is at conception. Must be God changed his mind,lol. If God can change his mind, maybe morality isn't as objective as some people claim?

If we want to make laws for the People of Earth, we have to use reason. One really big piece of reason is empirical evidence. Provide evidence that souls exist, literally, as well as the point in time a soul enters its cells, growing body, etc.

Without such evidence we have to look at the issue in a more rational way, with humanistic values. Most people who get abortions do so well before the fetus develops the ability to feel pain and experience consciousness. This is because most people have an innate moral sense derived from empathy. The same empathy we extend to our sisters who were raped by their father or need to end their pregnancy to save their own life.

Life is complicated and things are rarely black and white. We are figuring things out as we go as human beings.
 
Here are some reasonable questions:

Wouldn't a compassionate god understand if a woman decided early in the pregnancy to terminate because it was the result of an incestuous rape? Before a certain stage, the zygote or fetus is not consciously aware of pain and suffering, but the woman is. What about the pain and suffering of an adult woman? Didn't God supposedly become human to understand?

Couldn't the Almighty just give the soul a different body before it would experience pain and suffering? Isn't the soul immortal anyways?
 
Last edited:
Aneirin said:
It has always amazed me that the loudest anti abortionists are men. . controlling women seems to be the real issue. .Like the congressman who is so anti abortion, until his mistress gets pregnant and then he wants her to abort. . I guess like with many things. . I like to reflect on what Jesus had to say about this (if you insist on using christian values) . .nothing. . and don't try to make the case that there was not abortion then. . we know better. .
Click to expand...
It has nothing to do with controlling women. You're statement is blanket sexism. The bible states that Jesus did believe abortion was wrong, but also had stories on how women suffering from rape were forgiven as Jesus understood.
 
Last edited:
SpecialEdition said:
I think the problem is that you are very dead set in your beliefs about what is right and wrong, when cells become a human, when the soul enters the equation, etc and based on your beliefs you are exceptionally quick to label anyone with a different opinion as amoral, wrong, murderers or willing to murder, etc. There is a very blurry line in your beliefs about where you think it's OK to draw the line with killing a human baby, like in cases of rape, etc. So in your own way you're also OK with murder. Maybe God (if you believe in God) wanted that rape baby to come into the world but you're OK with it being aborted.

So I don't think it's as crystal clear and black and white as your posts make it out to be. If you said that you felt abortion was wrong to use as a method of birth control because people engaging in intercourse weren't using protection or pulling out on time, etc, that's something that I could understand. I think the way you communicate your ideas comes off as very extreme and off putting and doesn't give anyone room to have a conversation with you about it. I am not sure why you're not asking people WHY they believe what they believe but instead the way your posts are coming across is very righteous, morally superior and difficult to engage with on a subject that's obviously sensitive.

I don't believe any person in this thread is suggesting that you should just go out and abort a pregnancy for fun and fuck condoms and birth control or abstinence if that's your thing. I just don't think people are as heated and passionate about labeling it right or wrong as you are.

I think it's a little ironic is when you say that someone else's choice to stand by their word chips at your patience but I don't see a lot of give and take with you either. It's not asking you to move away from what you believe in but rather to try to understand that there are people who don't believe the same things that you do because of... who knows what reason. But if you wanted to convert anyone to your way of thinking about it I don't think trying to shame someone into accepting the label of casual amoral murderer is the way to go about it.
Click to expand...
I have a responsibility that I cannot shy away from. Unfortunately, is doesn't allow room for compromising on topics which should not be in existence in the first place. I'f I understood it correctly, you've stated that you don't believe women should go abort willy-nilly (I can't say that without thinking of Ruji). So can you explain to me your exact beliefs and why you believe them? Do you believe that people shouldn't be able to control if women get abortions? Do you believe that women should choose only to abort a child if the consequences or reasons are serious (AKA rape, death, other similar situations)? Those are just some example questions, I would like to hear your side,and I apologize for being so adamant.
I do want to make my beliefs crystal clear.
- I do believe abortion without a life-threatening or mental health threatening reason is wrong.
- Taking that into account, I believe people should not do wrong, and should avoid it as much as possible. This means I believe women shouldn't choose to abort a child without such a justifiable reason.
- That being said, I do not believe anyone should, in any way, force/coerce/make/ a women get an abortion or create any laws that get in the way.
- I believe every form of birth control should be free and easily accessible for everyone.
- I believe that a lack of responsibility is not a reason for abortion, as people are well aware of the risks they engage in.
- I believe that a lack of support and acceptance from parents, no matter how horrible it is for them to abandon support in such a situation, is not a proper reason for abortion.
- I believe the statement "It's my body I can do what I want with it" holds no ground and is not a reason for abortion, as the baby's body -- no matter how dependent it is of yours -- is not your body. That being said, I am unsure if that statement is used as an excuse or is a way of telling others that they should not have control of your choice, or both.. If the second is true, then I agree wholeheartedly.
- Lastly, I am not and will not tell a woman to not have it, I am here to tell women that it is wrong, and I hope they think it through and make the right choice. I'm sorry child-bearing is something you have to go through, but with great power comes great responsibility.
 
ThomasJ79 said:
Here are some reasonable questions:

Wouldn't a compassionate god understand if a woman decided early in the pregnancy to terminate because it was the result of an incestuous rape? Before a certain stage, the zygote or fetus is not consciously aware of pain and suffering, but the woman is. What about the pain and suffering of an adult woman? Didn't God supposedly become human to understand?

Couldn't the Almighty just the soul a different body for before it would experience pain and suffering? Isn't the soul immortal anyways?
Click to expand...
The answer to your first question is yes. I, personally, have stated multiple times that I agree with that too.
The answer to your second question is yes, though I am aware it is rhetorical.
The answer to your third question is no. That's not how it works. If that was true, then if I died, then technically god would just place me in another body. That is not the case (though reincarnation is definitely something that happens to some).
 
ThomasJ79 said:
The belief in the existence of a literal human soul is a religious and spiritual belief, which requires faith that it even exists. Even so, not all religions believe that the soul penetrates the zygote at conception. Look at the Catholic Church for example. A successive line of infallible Popes used to believe that the soul entered the human body at birth. You could kill a fetus in the womb in the Middle Ages and not be condemned to Hell for all eternity. Now the position is at conception. Must be God changed his mind,lol. If God can change his mind, maybe morality isn't as objective as some people claim?

If we want to make laws for the People of Earth, we have to use reason. One really big piece of reason is empirical evidence. Provide evidence that souls exist, literally, as well as the point in time a soul enters its cells, growing body, etc.

Without such evidence we have to look at the issue in a more rational way, with humanistic values. Most people who get abortions do so well before the fetus develops the ability to feel pain and experience consciousness. This is because most people have an innate moral sense derived from empathy. The same empathy we extend to our sisters who were raped by their father or need to end their pregnancy to save their own life.

Life is complicated and things are rarely black and white. We are figuring things out as we go as human beings.
Click to expand...
Your first paragraph doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
As for your second paragraph, I could say prove with empirical evidence that murder is deemed wrong by God, and there is none. So your second argument holds no water either.
And the fetus has been proven to have emotions.
 
Aneirin said:
It has always amazed me that the loudest anti abortionists are men. . controlling women seems to be the real issue. .Like the congressman who is so anti abortion, until his mistress gets pregnant and then he wants her to abort. . I guess like with many things. . I like to reflect on what Jesus had to say about this (if you insist on using christian values) . .nothing. . and don't try to make the case that there was not abortion then. . we know better. .
Click to expand...
This post is sexist
 
Truth Eternity said:
I have a responsibility that I cannot shy away from. Unfortunately, is doesn't allow room for compromising on topics which should not be in existence in the first place. I'f I understood it correctly, you've stated that you don't believe women should go abort willy-nilly (I can't say that without thinking of Ruji). So can you explain to me your exact beliefs and why you believe them? Do you believe that people shouldn't be able to control if women get abortions? Do you believe that women should choose only to abort a child if the consequences or reasons are serious (AKA rape, death, other similar situations)? Those are just some example questions, I would like to hear your side,and I apologize for being so adamant.
I do want to make my beliefs crystal clear.
- I do believe abortion without a life-threatening or mental health threatening reason is wrong.
- Taking that into account, I believe people should not do wrong, and should avoid it as much as possible. This means I believe women shouldn't choose to abort a child without such a justifiable reason.
- That being said, I do not believe anyone should, in any way, force/coerce/make/ a women get an abortion or create any laws that get in the way.
- I believe every form of birth control should be free and easily accessible for everyone.
- I believe that a lack of responsibility is not a reason for abortion, as people are well aware of the risks they engage in.
- I believe that a lack of support and acceptance from parents, no matter how horrible it is for them to abandon support in such a situation, is not a proper reason for abortion.
- I believe the statement "It's my body I can do what I want with it" holds no ground and is not a reason for abortion, as the baby's body -- no matter how dependent it is of yours -- is not your body. That being said, I am unsure if that statement is used as an excuse or is a way of telling others that they should not have control of your choice, or both.. If the second is true, then I agree wholeheartedly.
- Lastly, I am not and will not tell a woman to not have it, I am here to tell women that it is wrong, and I hope they think it through and make the right choice. I'm sorry child-bearing is something you have to go through, but with great power comes great responsibility.
Click to expand...

So basically you are personally against abortion (unless in certain circumstances) but actually pro-choice (because you don't want to ban it or place legal restrictions on it.) Am I understanding?

You said that you don't think anyone should "In any way, force/coerce/make/ a women get an abortion or create any laws that get in the way." Did you mean to say force to carry a pregnancy?
 
I am pro- the right to have an abortion, I do think it’s disingenuous however to frame all people who are against it as “anti-choice” just as it would be disingenuous to label all people who hold my position as “anti-life”

I think it’s important we acknowledge that many on the opposing side do not hold that view as a way to restrict women but rather as a misinformed belief about the point where life begins and synapses in the brain begin to fire.

While I’m sure some of those who hold onto the anti-abortion stance do wish to control and punish women’s actions I believe that it is far from the majorities motivations in their stance.
 
I'm more pro-abortion. Kids are the worst, and then they grow up to be adults which are also the worst.
Which is why I believe conception begins at 200. We should have the right to abort anyone under that age.

Starting with you...
 
Aneirin said:
It has always amazed me that the loudest anti abortionists are men. . controlling women seems to be the real issue. .Like the congressman who is so anti abortion, until his mistress gets pregnant and then he wants her to abort.
Click to expand...

AGREE! Abortion is a way to control women.

Controlling women's reproductive rights is a way of controlling women.

Also, for those against abortion because of religion: That's nice. Don't have an abortion, then. It's unconstitutional to mix church and state in the United States. We all have freedom of religion. This is not a Christian nation.


Men arguing that women should not have reproductive rights: shut the fuck up about our bodies.
Men who support women's rights to choose: thank you for being allies.

Anti-abortion women: That is your right to choose. You are not allowed to choose for other women.
 
Last edited:
Truth Eternity said:
I have a responsibility that I cannot shy away from. Unfortunately, is doesn't allow room for compromising on topics which should not be in existence in the first place. I'f I understood it correctly, you've stated that you don't believe women should go abort willy-nilly (I can't say that without thinking of Ruji). So can you explain to me your exact beliefs and why you believe them? Do you believe that people shouldn't be able to control if women get abortions? Do you believe that women should choose only to abort a child if the consequences or reasons are serious (AKA rape, death, other similar situations)? Those are just some example questions, I would like to hear your side,and I apologize for being so adamant.
I do want to make my beliefs crystal clear.
- I do believe abortion without a life-threatening or mental health threatening reason is wrong.
- Taking that into account, I believe people should not do wrong, and should avoid it as much as possible. This means I believe women shouldn't choose to abort a child without such a justifiable reason.
- That being said, I do not believe anyone should, in any way, force/coerce/make/ a women get an abortion or create any laws that get in the way.
- I believe every form of birth control should be free and easily accessible for everyone.
- I believe that a lack of responsibility is not a reason for abortion, as people are well aware of the risks they engage in.
- I believe that a lack of support and acceptance from parents, no matter how horrible it is for them to abandon support in such a situation, is not a proper reason for abortion.
- I believe the statement "It's my body I can do what I want with it" holds no ground and is not a reason for abortion, as the baby's body -- no matter how dependent it is of yours -- is not your body. That being said, I am unsure if that statement is used as an excuse or is a way of telling others that they should not have control of your choice, or both.. If the second is true, then I agree wholeheartedly.
- Lastly, I am not and will not tell a woman to not have it, I am here to tell women that it is wrong, and I hope they think it through and make the right choice. I'm sorry child-bearing is something you have to go through, but with great power comes great responsibility.
Click to expand...


You are correct - I don't think it's reasonable for women to be aborting pregnancies as a method of birth control. An example is someone I used to know through a friend who had multiple abortions because she and her partner didn't want to use birth control of any sort and just figured they could have an abortion if she happened to get pregnant. I don't think this is a good idea regardless of any kind of beliefs one may have. If she did decide to have children in the future she is doing a lot of damage to her body by having these abortions and may be preventing herself from pregnancy in the future. I think it's a little medically irresponsible - morals aside. This is the kind of scenario where I think many people would agree that perhaps it would be best that he get a vasectomy or she get an IUD or they just use condoms. For all I know this could be a lack of education and not understanding the medical consequences.

From my perspective, ideally anyone who got pregnant would be in a situation where they are financially secure, their relationship is stable (or they personally are stable if they want to do it alone), they have ample support to help in raising the baby and they want to be parents. My belief is that there is too much pressure solely on women to be the caregivers of children and they are basically locked down by their baby to raise it. I'm at the age where most of my friends are having children and seeing what mothers have to go through because we live in a world where everyone is separate, is really heartbreaking to me. Motherhood can be a very isolating, exhausting and difficult experience, nevermind the physical aftermath of giving birth. For this reason and really having seen what people go through with raising children, it is my belief that if a person is not in a position to take this on without incurring significant financial, physical or mental damage then they may be better off aborting until such a time that they can raise a child if they so choose.

-I agree that birth control should be free and easily accessible.
-I believe women should have the choice to do it regardless of the reasons or the circumstances.
-I believe that just because you are of child bearing age does not mean you should necessarily be bearing children and if you are quite young you should have the option to terminate.

Being in a country that forcibly sterilized groups of people in the past I am against policing what anyone does with their body reproductively because it is obviously very damaging to do so. I think education and resources need to be provided above all else. I think people need to understand whether or not they want children and if they 100% do not there are obviously procedures that can be done to be sterilized voluntarily should you so choose. The problem is for women who want this there are many medical professionals that will deny you because they think you're still of child bearing age and so should keep your womb open for business to procreate. I think this is fairly vile. If women who didn't want to have children didn't have to poison themselves with birth control pills, insert foreign objects in their body to prevent pregnancy, etc and were able to have their tubes tied if they so chose then I think it could reduce the amount of abortions dramatically as well.
 
If you believe this:

Gadsden Mountain Ranch said:
A mother shouldn't have to bear a rapists child
Click to expand...

How can you also believe this?

Gadsden Mountain Ranch said:
That's the baby's body you are killing. Not yours. That baby did nothing wrong to be killed.
Click to expand...

Coming from a pro-choice perspective myself this one always makes me scratch my head, If you truly believe that the cluster of cells is a human being and that aborting it is murder; what exactly makes the clusters of cells created by rape and incest any less of an innocent baby in your opinion?
 
Truth Eternity said:
Your first paragraph doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
As for your second paragraph, I could say prove with empirical evidence that murder is deemed wrong by God, and there is none. So your second argument holds no water either.
And the fetus has been proven to have emotions.
Click to expand...

Sorry it didn't make sense to you. I was only pointing out that equivocating abortion at any stage with murder is a weak argument, arguments I hear all the time by Christians. Of course the fetus probably experiences emotion, and consciousness too. Yet, most woman aren't aborting at such a stage because of moral sensibilities. The earliest stages of a pregnancy can be terminated without fear that you are harming a person with feelings, thoughts, and emotions. They aren't developed enough and it is okay from a humanistic perspective. The only real objections to this view come from the religious and their arguments are based on beliefs in a soul, following their god's plan and word, etc. Many people don't share these beliefs and we don't want laws based on them; they are weak arguments.
 
Asa said:
AGREE! Abortion is a way to control women.

Controlling women's reproductive rights is a way of controlling women.

Also, for those against abortion because of religion: That's nice. Don't have an abortion, then. It's unconstitutional to mix church and state in the United States. We all have freedom of religion. This is not a Christian nation.


Men arguing that women should not have reproductive rights: shut the fuck up about our bodies.
Men who support a women's right to choose: thank you for being allies.

Anti-abortion women: That is your right to choose. You are not allowed to choose for other women.
Click to expand...

I agree 99.99% here. It would be 100%, but I am leaving a margin of error.
 
This really isn't my topic but I need to get my mind off of something else, so to play a bit of a devils advocate here;

If it's solely the woman's choice to terminate, then by extension of freedom of choice shouldn't the other part have the same right to withdraw any responsibility if the woman refuse an abortion?
 
Elis said:
This really isn't my topic but I need to get my mind off of something else, so to play a bit of a devils advocate here;

If it's solely the woman's choice to terminate, then by extension of freedom of choice shouldn't the other part have the same right to withdraw any responsibility if the woman refuse an abortion?
Click to expand...

No. You both have consented in the act of having sex, if your child would be the result of this act then it is your responsibility as well to act as an appropriate parent, regardless of the choice the woman has made.
 
acd said:
So basically you are personally against abortion (unless in certain circumstances) but actually pro-choice (because you don't want to ban it or place legal restrictions on it.) Am I understanding?

You said that you don't think anyone should "In any way, force/coerce/make/ a women get an abortion or create any laws that get in the way." Did you mean to say force to carry a pregnancy?
Click to expand...
Yes, nobody should be forced to carry a pregnancy, but I believe that, other than in certain circumstances, abortion shouldn't be done. But by shouldn't I mean what it exactly means, "used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness, typically when criticizing someone's actions."
Note the obligation and duty.
It is a women's duty to give birth to a child she is pregnant with, but I believe that duty can be dropped in certain, obvious circumstances. That's as far as my beliefs go, and my beliefs line up with the truth.
I pretty much believe that you shouldn't have an abortion just because you don't want a child after you've done the actions and ignored the risk.
But, their should be nothing and nobody who can make that choice other than the woman, herself. If she chooses to abort a child because she didn't feel like having safe sex, then that is wrong and karma is going to hand it to her in the future. But she can choose to anyway, though she shouldn't. It is her choice, but it's not just her body, it's her child's body. And though she shouldn't do such an act without proper reason, there should be nothing that controls or restricts what she can do it the right she has.
I'm well aware that I'm trash at explaining things, so if there's anything here that you want cleared up just ask.
 
  • Like
Reactions: acd
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top