Quantum Eye

  • Thread starter Thread starter Deleted member 12009
  • Start date Start date
What would you like to discuss about it? Immanual Kant touched on this quite a bit...

a. Reason and Freedom

"For Kant, as we have seen, the drive for total, systematic knowledge in reason can only be fulfilled with assumptions that empirical observation cannot support.

The metaphysical facts about the ultimate nature of things in themselves must remain a mystery to us because of the spatiotemporal constraints on sensibility.

When we think about the nature of things in themselves or the ultimate ground of the empirical world, Kant has argued that we are still constrained to think through the categories, we cannot think otherwise, but we can have no knowledge because sensation provides our concepts with no content.

So, reason is put at odds with itself because it is constrained by the limits of its transcendental structure, but it seeks to have complete knowledge that would take it beyond those limits.

Freedom plays a central role in Kant’s ethics because the possibility of moral judgments presupposes it.
Freedom is an idea of reason that serves an indispensable practical function.

Without the assumption of freedom, reason cannot act.
If we think of ourselves as completely causally determined, and not as uncaused causes ourselves, then any attempt to conceive of a rule that prescribes the means by which some end can be achieved is pointless.

I cannot both think of myself as entirely subject to causal law and as being able to act according to the conception of a principle that gives guidance to my will.

We cannot help but think of our actions as the result of an uncaused cause if we are to act at all and employ reason to accomplish ends and understand the world.

So reason has an unavoidable interest in thinking of itself as free.

That is, theoretical reason cannot demonstrate freedom, but practical reason must assume for the purpose of action.

Having the ability to make judgments and apply reason puts us outside that system of causally necessitated events. “Reason creates for itself the idea of a spontaneity that can, on its own, start to act–without, i.e., needing to be preceded by another cause by means of which it is determined to action in turn, according to the law of causal connection,” Kant says. (A 533/B 561)

In its intellectual domain, reason must think of itself as free.
It is dissatisfying that he cannot demonstrate freedom; nevertheless, it comes as no surprise that we must think of ourselves as free.

In a sense, Kant is agreeing with the common sense view that how I choose to act makes a difference in how I actually act.
Even if it were possible to give a predictive empirical account of why I act as I do, say on the grounds of a functionalist psychological theory, those considerations would mean nothing to me in my deliberations.

When I make a decision about what to do, about which car to buy, for instance, the mechanism at work in my nervous system makes no difference to me.
I still have to peruse Consumer Reports, consider my options, reflect on my needs, and decide on the basis of the application of general principles.

My first person perspective is unavoidable, hence the deliberative, intellectual process of choice is unavoidable."



 
The mind will always make it’s own contributions to the experiences and reactions of the one experiencing self-awareness. The question that has been asked throughout time is - “Does that make your experiences less true?”
Is it illusory just because of the way in which the data is interpreted?
 
if we assume the merkabah theory is true, then yes
reality only unfolds when your mind decodes it

but if hallucination is possible, how can you be sure something is not an hallucination?

How you decode the informational field will determine your experience

if you try to use the terms of an outmoded view of the world (that belonging to 'science' which refuses to realsie that we are living in a hologram) then those terms will cause confusion
 
The mind will always make it’s own contributions to the experiences and reactions of the one experiencing self-awareness. The question that has been asked throughout time is - “Does that make your experiences less true?”
Is it illusory just because of the way in which the data is interpreted?

Well, yes and yes. It does make your experience less true and it is in the way it's interpreted.

Good example is the void cube
24pwcup.jpg


It appears to have no centers. It does have centers though, you just can't see them. This makes it interesting because having the correct centers still factors into solutions.
What can happen with the void cube is a false parity error, which is actually equivocation of centers which you can't see, but still count. Thusly:

98x7r4.jpg


You can see here with centers made visible that what appears to be a normally impossible position (a parity, which the 3x3 can't actually have) is actually an illusion due to not being able to see the centers.
 
The mind will always make it’s own contributions to the experiences and reactions of the one experiencing self-awareness. The question that has been asked throughout time is - “Does that make your experiences less true?”
Is it illusory just because of the way in which the data is interpreted?

The method is not the problem
the retina+brain is perfectly capable of analysing incoming light
but what arrives into consciousness is definitely not the plain raw data
the sights, meanings & relationships attributed to what's seen are based on the processed visual data and implicit&explicit learning experiences (top-down & bottom-up blend and interact)
this is a problem for determining the truth of perceptions. why?

regard the clinico-anatomical hypothesis of dreams.
During dreams, a number of cortical areas are inhibited, such as the primary motor cortex, the primary visual cortex, and the prefrontal lobe.
the primary motor cortex is the source of movement commands issued to the body. It's inhibited and therefore you can't move. (it's a bit more complex, but irrelevant for this discussion)
The primary visual cortex is also inhibited. Therefore, the higher visual processing areas receive no data.
Lastly the prefrontal cortex is mostly inhibited, and with it fade away most higher reasoning skills and thought-control mechanisms.

the theory posits that dreams are the result of this peculiar brain-state where the brain is left to stimulate itself without any overriding signals from outside. The prefrontal shutdown also makes sure you don't realize you're dreaming.
The same situation can be induced by putting halves of pingpong balls over your eyes and putting static on your headphones. After quite a while you will see vivid hallucinations.
Ketamine, although not studied properly, presumuably also blocks the arrival of overriding stimuli, leading to vivid hallucinations.

This is a problem because it shows the brain is perfectly capable of stimulating itself into a fabricated reality while being unaware of it.
 
Huh? Yeah so I was wondering about optical illusions and how it basically shows a failure of the brian to see its environment as it truly is. An oversight of programming or a glitch?
 
Well, yes and yes. It does make your experience less true and it is in the way it's interpreted.

Good example is the void cube
24pwcup.jpg


It appears to have no centers. It does have centers though, you just can't see them. This makes it interesting because having the correct centers still factors into solutions.
What can happen with the void cube is a false parity error, which is actually equivocation of centers which you can't see, but still count. Thusly:

98x7r4.jpg


You can see here with centers made visible that what appears to be a normally impossible position (a parity, which the 3x3 can't actually have) is actually an illusion due to not being able to see the centers.

The method is not the problem
the retina+brain is perfectly capable of analysing incoming light
but what arrives into consciousness is definitely not the plain raw data
the sights, meanings & relationships attributed to what's seen are based on the processed visual data and implicit&explicit learning experiences (top-down & bottom-up blend and interact)
this is a problem for determining the truth of perceptions. why?

regard the clinico-anatomical hypothesis of dreams.
During dreams, a number of cortical areas are inhibited, such as the primary motor cortex, the primary visual cortex, and the prefrontal lobe.
the primary motor cortex is the source of movement commands issued to the body. It's inhibited and therefore you can't move. (it's a bit more complex, but irrelevant for this discussion)
The primary visual cortex is also inhibited. Therefore, the higher visual processing areas receive no data.
Lastly the prefrontal cortex is mostly inhibited, and with it fade away most higher reasoning skills and thought-control mechanisms.

the theory posits that dreams are the result of this peculiar brain-state where the brain is left to stimulate itself without any overriding signals from outside. The prefrontal shutdown also makes sure you don't realize you're dreaming.
The same situation can be induced by putting halves of pingpong balls over your eyes and putting static on your headphones. After quite a while you will see vivid hallucinations.
Ketamine, although not studied properly, presumuably also blocks the arrival of overriding stimuli, leading to vivid hallucinations.

This is a problem because it shows the brain is perfectly capable of stimulating itself into a fabricated reality while being unaware of it.
Sorry…I should have phrased that better…it was more of an extension of my previous post...and more of a rhetorical question.
It makes sense to me in my own mind…that is sometimes difficult to translate.

Actually, they are finding now that the mind isn’t so cut and dry as to how it functions…they are discovering that our minds are actually quantum computers…complete with entangled particles. They are also seeing that in some cases our “consciousness” is capable of surviving without a functioning brain…I posted something about this here - http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27025&page=75&p=775716&viewfull=1#post775716 and here - http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27025&page=74&p=773824&viewfull=1#post773824 but recently they found a perfectly functioning adult woman with no Cerebellum…which was assumed to not be possible.
The second one is titled “Do Alzheimer’s and Dementia prove the soul doesn’t exist?” but my no means in the only things I have posted in regards to this.
I know @Holy SwagPope InfernoKage you don’t believe that life carries on after we die…and that is fine…I often find myself in the minority belief category myself.
If it all does just go to black then who really gives a fuck…that will be the end.
Here is my but though…
There actually is quite a lot of evidence showing us that there is something beyond our bodily death here.
The institute of Noetic Sciences is a very good resource to explore this possibility…you can find them here - http://noetic.org
It is one of the best sites I have found that is tackling these questions in a scientific manner.
I have also found that most of these “questions” about the nature of our consciousness and life beyond death have some very good and reliable proof behind them.
The biggest issues today within the scientific community is the taboo nature of studying the paranormal or (sorry @sprinkles) the “metaphysical”, PSI, etc. etc.
For most serious scientists, studying such things can be equivalent to career suicide.
And so the taboo is perpetuated in spite of the years of research, data, and proof.
And this is mostly the fault of mainstream science community…but also the religious institutions have fought against it as well…even though it could correlate to what they teach.
I am going to post several things following this post…
The first is a series of videos of Dean Radin and this can be found on the Noetic Sciences website, speaking on the taboos in science and spirituality.
Then I will post a video by Cassandra Vieten in a TEDx talk about interconnectedness.
After those, I will post a short article about the quantum mind along with the citations.
Although it is a bit of a lengthy lecture, I highly recommend listening to the whole thing.
Enjoy.
 
Last edited:
[h=1]"Taboos in Science and Spirituality" with Dean Radin

The double secret super taboos, otherwise known as “woo-woo taboos” include anything in the realm of psychic phenomena. It is generally believed in the scientific community that spirituality has nothing to offer science. However, some of the iconic figures of science: Thomas Edison, Isaac Newton and Madame Curie, were all actively interested in “non-scientific” endeavors such as alchemy and contacting the dead. In this segment Dean ponders the fact that there is currently no technology that can detect the presence or absence of any kind of consciousness, however the first person accounts observed and written about over 1000 years ago describe some states of consciousness that are now being proven in psi labs.

[video=vimeo;14979300]http://vimeo.com/14979300[/video]
[/h][video=vimeo;14979335]http://vimeo.com/14979335[/video]
[video=vimeo;14979355]http://vimeo.com/14979355[/video]
[video=vimeo;14979402]http://vimeo.com/14979402[/video]
 
Cassandra Vieten at TEDxBlackRockCity

On Noetic Science


Watch IONS Executive Director of Research Cassandra Vieten, PhD, give her TEDx talk at Black Rock City in the Nevada Desert for Burning Man 2012, where she was working with colleagues on an experiment in collective consciousness. In addition to talking about the experiment they were doing, Cassandra also shares the value of Noetic Sciences and why she disagrees with critiques of Noetic Sciences that researchers often encounter.


[video=youtube;FoCABSb9KP0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FoCABSb9KP0[/video]
 
The Quantum Universe and the Soul



Recent discussion on the existence of the soul and the ramifications of a conclusion in either direction — such as you can find here — have sparked some research into alternate theories of consciousness. There are many philosophical schools of thought, but this is a discussion of quantifiable scientific theories.

Among those theories, of which there are several, are such ideas as Ervin László’s Akashic Field Theory, or the Zero Point Field Theory, which you can read more about here and here. László says, to put it in simple terms, that there is a quantum field where consciousness originates and that our thoughts, our consciousness, is not local to our bodies, but that our brains access this field, known as the Akashic field, which holds all the information in the universe.[1]

This is a crude description of László’s theory and hardly does it justice, but it is the essence of the idea.
While the Akashic Field Theory has its supporters, mostly in esoteric, metaphysical circles, it hasn’t really garnered a great deal of interest or attention from mainstream science, save for a few eccentric physicists.

As discussed previously, most theories are examples of Dualism in the Philosophy of Mind. Dualism states that the body and the mind are separate entities, that there are two parts to the human condition, the body and the soul, as opposed to Physicalism, which states that consciousness is the product of local brain chemistry. László’s theory is an attempt to provide a non-local explanation under Physicalism, using quantum mechanics and wave function.
If that sounds complex, it’s because it is…very.


László isn’t alone in this line of thought however.
Laid out in his 1994 book, Shadows of the Mind,[2] English theoretical physicist Sir Roger Penrose, in cooperation with American anaesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff has presented a similar theory, also using quantum mechanics.

Penrose’s theory, called Orchestrated Objective Reduction, or Orch-OR makes László’s A-field theory look like child’s play. It attempts to provide a theory of consciousness based on the quantum state of structures called microtubules in the brain.

It says, basically, that there is a quantum scale energy present in the micro-structures of the brain that are the basis for consciousness, and Hameroff suggests that when a person dies, that quantum state or energy is “dissipated into the universe”.[3] He says that near-death experiences can be explained by this quantum energy, which he claims might be able to exist in the universe indefinitely, leaving the nervous system upon death, and then returning when the patient is revived.

This literally is a theory, based in Physicalism, that confirms the existence of a soul…or so it would seem.

In its development, Penrose based his research on the mathematical view point of Gödel’s theorem — two theorems of mathematical logic, which ultimately state that the human mind is necessarily computational. This is a very complicated mathematical philosophy, and Penrose’s interpretation, which disagrees with Gödel’s theorem, is highly controversial and contested.

Known as the Penrose-Lucas argument, his interpretation of the mathematics suggests that the human brain is non-computational, non-algorithmic, and that only wave function collapse explains this process.

Don’t feel bad if you’re a little lost, even the best of us would have trouble following this thought train.



It turns out though, that wave function collapse doesn’t explain the process, at least according to Swedish-American physicist and cosmologist Max Tegmark.
Tegmark argued in his 2000 paper in the journal Physical Review E, that wave function collapse would occur at too fast a rate for it to have any impact on neural processes.[4]

This view point is widely adopted as the biggest barrier to Orch-OR’s success as a theory of consciousness, and it essentially stops it in its tracks. It says, basically, that this quantum energy that Penrose and Hameroff claim is the basis for consciousness doesn’t stick around long enough in those microstructures to be considered a viable candidate for the basis of a soul.

Those less interested in the science and more focused on the philosophical meaning behind the theory are quick to celebrate the idea that science has proven the existence of the soul, but a closer look at the research says that this lofty goal has yet to be reached. Orch-OR is attractive because, not only does it seem to provide an answer to the age old question of the soul, but it also appears to provide a structure for the afterlife and the phenomena of ghosts.

To be clear, the theory has not been disproven (or proven for that matter), it’s just that many involved in the research disagree with Penrose and Hameroff and cast doubt on the viability of the theorem.


[1] László, Ervin, PhD. Science and the Akashic Field: An Integral Theory of Everything. Inner Traditions (2004). ISBN-10: 1594770425

[2] Penrose, Roger, PhD. Shadows of the Mind: A Search for the Missing Science of Consciousness. Oxford University Press (1996). ISBN-10: 0195106466

[3] Gayle, Damien. Near-death experiences occur when the soul leaves the nervous system and enters the universe, claim two quantum physics experts. Daily Mail UK: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...experiences-patients-brought-brink-death.html

[4] Tegmark, Max (April 2000). Importance of quantum decoherence in brain processes. Phys. Rev. E 61 (4): 4194. doi:10.1103/PhysRevE.61.4194.

 
This is a problem because it shows the brain is perfectly capable of stimulating itself into a fabricated reality while being unaware of it.

That's a bit of an overgeneralization from an immediate processing of information into the form of a long-term conceptual contruction we believe to encompass 'reality'. There is a relationship of course, but it's not such that one can make clear-cut claims between fabricated and empirical realities. It is more accurate to state the sensations or stimuli as being fabricated rather than the abstraction itself. No one wakes under the mistaken belief that their dreaming encompasses or is identical with reality although they may have been unaware of the distinction while dreaming nor is the distinction clear-cut because dreaming and conciousness both take place in reality.

Indeed, if we consider a 'false reality/dreams' as being a subset of the broader, abstract construct that is 'reality,' than comparing the two is irrational as 'reality' is a much broader and a more fabricated construct than even the smaller, specific instances in which we distinguish between external and internal sources of stimulus.
 
That's a bit of an overgeneralization from an immediate processing of information into the form of a long-term conceptual contruction we believe to encompass 'reality'. There is a relationship of course, but it's not such that one can make clear-cut claims between fabricated and empirical realities. It is more accurate to state the sensations or stimuli as being fabricated rather than the abstraction itself. No one wakes under the mistaken belief that their dreaming encompasses or is identical with reality although they may have been unaware of the distinction while dreaming nor is the distinction clear-cut because dreaming and conciousness both take place in reality.

Indeed, if we consider a 'false reality/dreams' as being a subset of the broader, abstract construct that is 'reality,' than comparing the two is irrational as 'reality' is a much broader and a more fabricated construct than even the smaller, specific instances in which we distinguish between external and internal sources of stimulus.

The problem here is that you can have false awakening where you do wake (you believe you do) and cannot distinguish your dream from reality.

What happens to me some times is that I dream I get up out of bed to do something, but I never actually do. As far as I'm concerned I'm awake and moving around, getting dressed, making breakfast maybe... but it's all a dream and I'm still in the bed. Then I wake up for real (maybe?) and see that I didn't actually get out of bed, but I'm so tired that I close my eyes for what I think is a second but actually quickly enter into another sleep where I dream that I'm really getting out of bed this time but actually I'm not, I'm repeating the same thing, then I wake up disgusted that I'm still in the bed.

Anyway, to summarize - a false awakening is indistinguishable from a real one as long as the illusion is maintained, so if you're having one there's no way to know it. It's entirely possible to 'wake up' and say "Oh, this is real, I was dreaming before." but actually you are still dreaming.

Edit:
Also I some times wake up looking for people who were in my house because I don't know I was dreaming... and some times I'm still not entirely sure if it was a dream or not. It gets creepy.

Edit edit:
It also doesn't help that I some times sleep walk. Some times I dream that I'm standing there looking at something.... except it's not a dream. I'm actually standing there looking at that thing, eyes open, but asleep. So I'm seeing something real while I'm asleep. Freaky shit there.
 
Last edited:
Though one trick I learned to tell if you're dreaming is to put clocks everywhere. Your brain can't typically simulate a correct time in a dream so whenever you see a clock, that's a big clue.

That's usually a trigger that wakes me up. I try to tell the time and can't, and go "Well fuck. Don't I feel stupid. THIS IS A DREAM DAMMIT"
 
You think what you see is real?
You believe it's really there, only because your senses pick it up? How naive.
How fckin sheepish you fucking fucktard.
For one, how can you be sure that what you believe to exist is really there, when:
1) Hallucinations and illusions are possible?
2) You cannot look into another person's mind?
3) The universe, if it even exists, is a fucking hologram??

Hope you're doubting everything's existence now. Go die in a hole already.
Huh? Still confident enough to stay? Well. Since we've established nothing exists, let's move on to your mind.
Why:
1) does your consciousness instantly fade when your brain's fuckin electroshocked?
2) do medications and other substances alter your very mind, when they're just substances?
3) and why the fuck would your mind need a body if it could exist eternally without one ?

Since matter doesn't exist and your mind is your brain (which is also matter, smartass), your mind doesn't exist.
Congratulations! If you shot yourself right now, nothing would change. Go ahead, try it.

I can not doubt the fact that I am doubting, which means I exist, which means that something exist, which means nothing can't exist. Cogito Ergo Sum, Ich Bin Ein Berliner
 
Back
Top