Ramblings about race

slant said:
I've said this once, and I'll say it again, everyone is a little bit racist. Things run much smoother when people are aware of it, because often times it leads them to correct it; sometimes not. A lot of people in Utah are very racist; there is a large number of Hispanics who live here and I'm constantly hearing talk about those 'spics'.

In fact, I'd like to point out that in one of the U.S. President's speeches a few weeks or so back, he was speaking about illegal immigrants and specifically mentioned Mexicans. Are all illegal immigrants Mexicans? No.
So everyone is racist, to an extent. Some may be worse than others. It's keeping it in check that's the challenging part.
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I actually agree with this. Mostly because it's a bias, and we've all grown up with perpetual stereotypes. We don't always realize we are until something forces us to confront our biases, but it's all about how we confront them. Some people don't like recognizing that they have prejudices and then they become upset when someone shows it to them...instead of recognizing it and trying to change.
 
I also believe that White America does not have a culture. It has been so ingrained in us to Love America by forgetting our culture. I know nothing about my Native American background other than my Great Grandma was Native American. I know nothing about my German ancestry or my Prussian history I only know my American history. My family thought it was more important that I was an American. And right now I feel like American culture is dead. How many people are proud Americans anymore. Your almost embarrassed to admit it when you travel anymore..
 
Flavus Aquila said:
Point taken - I mean I don't like the way some people are conscious of what they are doing and EXPLOIT it for their own advantage. It happens a lot.
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It does. It doesn't make it comfortable, either. I've gotten in a few arguments with people who said they were "owed" something because of their negative personal experiences. Does that mean they should retaliate? No - it means they need to deal with those feelings. If they don't, those feelings will destroy them. Prisons are full of people who felt like they were owed something, so they took it upon themselves to make those things happen. It's not a good road. Not at all.
 
efromm said:
I agree totally with everything you said Arbygil!! I really wish that humanity would make an effort for understanding each other. If I was the President I would be working on healing America and trying to make America the place it was intended to be. I never see our leaders do anything but talk about race issues they don't get involved in the true fixing of anything. And it seems like people keep bringing up old issues that don't need to be rehashed. I have done the same things to myself until I realized that I needed to move on and grow instead of playing the victim.
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It's always good to move forward, efromm - if you learn from the past, and you make changes in your future to avoid the past experiences from repeating, then you've already gone light years ahead (I have Star Trek on the brain...).
 
efromm said:
I also believe that White America does not have a culture. It has been so ingrained in us to Love America by forgetting our culture. I know nothing about my Native American background other than my Great Grandma was Native American. I know nothing about my German ancestry or my Prussian history I only know my American history. My family thought it was more important that I was an American. And right now I feel like American culture is dead. How many people are proud Americans anymore. Your almost embarrassed to admit it when you travel anymore..
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Still...there is a balance here, too. Being proud of who you are is one thing, but being prideful to the exclusion of other cultures is a problem (again, speaking generalities!). The White Pride movement is a touchy one because it seems to declare that all people of color are less important, or that people of color should return to their own homelands (whatever that means...we're all mixed with a bunch of cultures to begin with).

It can be easier for people of European descent to trace their history through their generations, if records weren't destroyed. It's much more difficult for an African-American person to trace their lineage, mostly because accurate records weren't always kept for slaves (and slaves often took the last names of the slave owners). I think if you truly want to trace your history, efromm, you can try a few online record sites (like ancestry.com), or ask your parents and grandparents (if they're alive). The local libraries in the area are also incredibly rich tools in tracing your ancestry.
 
arbygil said:
1. Are you speaking about a specific racial group, or are you speaking about people as a whole? If you're speaking about a particular racial group then your argument regarding AA is prejudicial and biased.

2. Are you speaking from personal experiences, or are you speaking from what others have told you about it?

3. Do you live in the United States?

4. Do you personally know anyone who has benefited from AA and have you asked them about it?

5. Do you know your American history from the 1950s through 2007? Have you studied the AA trends in corporations and schools?

And so on.

I'm actually a little frustrated because these are topics I run into over, and over, and over again and I always feel as if I need to explain it to people who are coming at it from one biased POV. No offense to the OP, but arguments like this are not ones I like to discuss. There's a question posited, and the question does not sound as if it's open for discussion.

That being said, I'm not necessarily for or against Affirmative Action. What I AM for is equal treatment for equal situations. The problem is (hello) NO SITUATION IS EQUAL. No two situations are alike. I tell you what. Racism does not magically go away. It takes a conscious effort to change it on both sides - and you can "say" racism doesn't exist, but actions reveal truth. If you think America is not racist, I defy you to start looking back over the past two years or so and investigate some of the things said about our current president. It's there. From people who say they're "not racist": Wow, look...look under that rock. I see it!

So let's take away that whole notion that racism does not exist in the United States.

So if racism *does* exist, then you can also assume racism exists in all levels of society and it doesn't discriminate against the intelligent or the ignorant (some of the most intelligent people in America can also be very racist).

Then if we can assume this^^, then we can also assume that business owners and leaders can be racist, and they might hire people based on who they personally like/don't like. Now, should they have the right to do that? Sure. We all do it. It comes down to bias. But when this is out of control and no one hires you because you happen to believe something they don't or you happen to look a way they don't, then there is a problem because you've personally created an impenetrable ceiling for a large group of people - and you've doomed a certain class of people to a certain economic bracket. At least this is what happened early in our nation's culture, until Affirmative Action took hold.

Now...do I say we still need it? That's another story. I think if managers and leaders of companies can look past color and select the best people for the job, they should do it. Do I think all managers do this? No, I don't. I don't have that much faith in our managerial system. I also don't see a lot of top CEOs or industry leaders of color, either. AA also can show younger people that yes, you can aspire to X job because others have broken the glass ceiling for you - and the industry might let you achieve your goals.

I think each situation has to be evaluated carefully. I think if there's an industry that lacks people of color, we should be asking ourselves why. We should also ask that question if there's too MANY of one culture in an industry, because there might be economic disadvantages to that as well.

So. That's my rant...take it as you will.
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Response, plus some extra background:

I am a Chinese-American living in the United States, in a town with a large Asian-American community. Both my parents went to college in China, but under very different circumstances. My mom's grandfather was the dean of a well-regarded university, and she went to a "magnet school" (for lack of a better translation) for children of university staff. It's safe to say she benefited from her background.

My dad, on the other hand, grew up without running water or reliable electricity. Because of regional quotas in the higher education system against rural districts, only the top of the top students went to college (luckily, he was one of them). So in a way, he received the reverse of affirmative action, based on geography.

I started thinking about race and affirmative action after reading The Bell Curve, a book about IQ and social structure. It has been called "just a genteel way of calling somebody a nigger" even though for half the book it focuses solely on whites.

The only person I know who has benefited from AA is the "geek camp" instructor I mentioned in the original post.

I'm not against AA when it is structured as "take into account if an applicant had less opportunities in life", or "give applicants preference if they can gain/contribute more from an education/job". I *am* against it when it is structured as publicly mandated entitlement.

Blatant racism in my school does exist, sadly, mostly among Chinese-Americans and African-Americans. There used to be a problem on the lunch line where a black kid would cut the line, specifically in front of a nerdy-looking Chinese girl. Almost invariably, someone would make a derogatory pun in Chinese about "ni-ga hei-ren" ("those black kids"). This goes beyond prefering people who are more like themselves, it's petty stupidity on both sides.

I know a moderate amount about AA, mostly from a US Government class. We read about University of California Regents v. Bakke, Grutter v. Bollinger, and Gratz v. Bollinger.
 
Shai Gar said:
I've done an official IQ test. There's a heap of questions to do with American politicians from pre-revolution days, and a bunch about american authors I've never heard of.

It's not white culture, it's white american culture.
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According to The Bell Curve, which may or not be correct, certain IQ tests have a certain correlation to "G", a broad and supposedly unbiased factor of cognitive ability. When tests are made with a high correlation to "G" (meaning, more abstract questions without culturally learned answers), racial statistical differences in IQ are still evident.

That's not to say that the concept of IQ itself isn't biased, or that any differences are inherent. A stereotypical nerd may have an IQ of 150, but if he doesn't use his IQ to understand the real world, the number doesn't make him any better off than someone with an average IQ.

The difference in IQ between my mom and dad is almost certainly greater than 30 points. My dad has a PhD, my mom barely got into the college of her choice. Yet I definitely like my mom more than my dad.
 
There are a lot of things wrong with affirmative action (both in legal principle, and in practical terms), but I can think of some reasonable arguments for special benefits for the descendants of slaves.

How has the U.K. managed to largely dispel racism? I'm not very familiar with their government's involvement in possible affirmative action programs, or an NAACP equivalent, but whatever they did seems to have worked well. Could we try following their example?
 
I live in one of the whitest communities on the planet. Luckily my parents raised me to be pretty much oblivious to race. Things are still FAR unbalanced on a global scale. I get so frustrated with the topic of race because it's so much of an "issue" for everyone and I could really honestly not care less. I mean, I do certainly care about the mistreatment of others(any others), but it's such a complex issue and nobody listens to the previledged white man anyway, so I just keep my mouth shut and let the world fight it out until they've had enough... which I'm assuming will be never.
 
Wyote said:
I live in one of the whitest communities on the planet. Luckily my parents raised me to be pretty much oblivious to race. Things are still FAR unbalanced on a global scale. I get so frustrated with the topic of race because it's so much of an "issue" for everyone and I could really honestly not care less. I mean, I do certainly care about the mistreatment of others(any others), but it's such a complex issue and nobody listens to the previledged white man anyway, so I just keep my mouth shut and let the world fight it out until they've had enough... which I'm assuming will be never.
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Pffthp...not everyone's like that.

There are safe places to talk about issues, but I won't lie: You'll get frustration on both sides of the fence. But if you're patient and both sides are willing to talk things through, then positive changes can occur. Let's put it this way: I'm willing to talk about it, and I'm sure this is a safe enough place to talk about such things. It drains me, yes, because I feel as if I've talked about issues like this my whole life and I get tired of explaining things, but if people want to ask questions I'm willing to answer.

The thing is, the questions have to be fair. None of this, "well everyone *I* know is like X" business. None of this, "well in this textbook we learned..." stuff. Because really, you're right: It's a complicated issue. So one person, one book, one organization can't speak for everyone. Not even the same small group can speak to the entire group. There is privilege if your part of a majority group. Own up to it. Accept it. Recognize that you've had perks and accept that others haven't. Recognize that situations must be seen both according to your circumstance as well as the other person's circumstance. If someone comes after you with a stick, offer them a hug in exchange.

Everyone's frustrated, it's normal. But if folks are willing to put aside past hurts and misconceptions, then growth can occur. Growth won't come immediately. It can't. But in time things can change. You just have to be willing to fight for it.

You can't say race doesn't exist, because it does. Instead of saying, "I treat everyone the same way" own up to the fact that you don't. You have favorites. And the people you hang around will be your favorite folks. If you really want friends of a different background, you'll have to find them...and you'll have to want to be part of their community in some way, shape, form, or fashion. It means enjoying the diversity without trying to complicated it by putting your own spin on it.
 
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Insightful OP.

I agree that it is impossible to live without prejudice.

I dont agree with having to accept other cultures, I think it is backwards to have a bunch of conflicting cultures make up one culture. Not that I couldnt enjoy another culture while I was on vacation.
 
Shai Gar said:
It isn't just in the US. AA might have started there, but it's everywhere now.

We need meritocracy, not fucking AA.
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Which would be nice, if everyone cared to hire folks on an equal footing. That doesn't always happen. I'm not saying AA isn't out of control - it is, when people abuse it and use it for their own aims. But I think it's rare that people will misuse it. Most people just want the chance to succeed...and in some cases AA helps, as long as the person is qualified for the job.

I'm not saying it's foolproof. And personally it makes me feel better to be hired based on the job I do and not the color of my skin. I'd *prefer* that. But AA doesn't just help certain racial groups - it helps women as well. It helps everyone *as long as* the person can do the job. It's misused if the person can't perform the job but they're hired because of a quota. That has to stop.

There are two sides to it, Shai - and honestly, I'm not for it or against it. But if someone is looking for an opportunity and they're fully qualified to do the job they should have the opportunity to succeed at it.
 
I have my family tree traced back as far as it can go. My parents being active Mormons got it done a while back. I was mostly talking about that feeling of belonging to a group, or a community. Where you have traditions and people do those things together. When I go to Canada I am always happy to see how they act as a community and respect one another. I can remember a time when life was simpler when I go there. I feel like a stranger in my own town anymore and the people here seem dead on the inside. And the American culture has such a negative spin on it right now...
 
Shai Gar said:
I've done an official IQ test. There's a heap of questions to do with American politicians from pre-revolution days, and a bunch about american authors I've never heard of.

It's not white culture, it's white american culture.
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What the hell kind of IQ tests are you taking? I've been prodded and poked by test takers since I was seven (Had to take IQ test to get into GATE ), but I don't remember theses types of questions. Mostly math and stupid shit like put the blocks in this order blah blah blah.

Race is stupid. I think we should all just screw until the whole world is light brown/ beige and we can find more intelligent reason to hate, mistrust and look down on each other.

I'm only somewhat kidding. I'm so freaking tired of all these social constructs. This world is driving me closer to accepting the merits of anarchy every. single. day.
 
Bored Now said:
Race is stupid. I think we should all just screw until the whole world is light brown/ beige and we can find more intelligent reason to hate, mistrust and look down on each other.

I'm only somewhat kidding.
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No, this is the correct answer. Do your part, screw someone of another race.

The newtypes, the next step of human evolution approve.

Kamillethumbs.gif
 
Silently Honest said:
Do your part, screw someone of another race.
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Joking aside, that's probably actually a good idea. Inbreeding can cause genetic disorders. A quick search of wikipedia shows:


  • The Ulas family of southern Turkey have several members who walk on all fours, due to mental retardation caused by inbreeding.
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It has long been debated on whether inbreeding caused some of the problems among some of the family members of some royal lines, most notably centered around Charles II of Spain, who was mentally retarded and disfigured.


The House of Habsburg inmarried particularly often. Famous in this case is the Habsburger (Unter) Lippe (Habsburg jaw/Habsburg lip/"Austrian lip"), typical for many Habsburg relatives over a period of six centuries.[17] The condition progressed through the generations to the point that the last of the Spanish Habsburgs, Charles II of Spain, could not properly chew his food.[18] (See mandibular prognathism.)
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And so many of the multiracial people I know are awesome! :m032:
 
I don't know... I prefer racial purity in the african or light skinned asian girls I "date overnight" or fantasize about. You can just look at the girl and see utter hotness.

However, the following mixtures are just plain hot:
Latino - Asian
Latino - African
Latino - Arabian
Latino - Caucasian
Latino - Oriental (sub continent)
African - Asian
African - Oriental
African - Arabian
Oriental - Caucasian
Oriental - Asian
Oriental - Arabian
 
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