REAL women

Ohhh, dearie, dear.

With all due respect, VH, I think the majority of the women who you do associate with are not average. You may have an understanding for the cream of the crop, modelesque, statuesque, beauties with a perfect 10 figure with the hair, skin, and teeth to match but you haven't a clue how the everyday woman thinks or feels. But then, maybe you'd have to be a woman to know it. I like the first two in the first picture you referenced. I thought they were cute, but too young for me. Then you used the very worst pictures of guys on the internet in existence. I'm surprised you didn't dredge up the 600-lbs naked bearded guy as an example.

I like seeing guys in clothes, guys who are physically *clean* (body), emotionally and spiritually healthy, and I like guys I can relate to. Outside of that, the playing field is wiiide open, my friend. Both Alfred Molina and Brad Pitt turn me on, so I'm kind of diverse. I'm sorry that you haven't known a variety of women who feel the same way.

As to the OP's question, I think we need a diversity of all sorts of types. We get stuck in a concept of "this is what we should all look like" and then we miss out on the person who doesn't fit that rigid mold.
 
enfp can be shy said:
I'd like to follow the processes from the bottom up. Here's what I expect: the genes dictate the protein synthesis, which builds the brain; from then on this brain learns through interaction. On the first page of the thread I included a study about proven pre-natal learning, but I assume you couldn't see it, since I was editing my posts a few times, before continuing.
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That study involves language, which a baby would learn through sound. They can hear some of what goes on outside. That's why they can also recognize the mother's voice before birth.
Visuals, by contrast, are hard to come by in the womb.


From the way you react and interpret things, I assume you are convinced that babies have genetic predisposition to like certain shapes? Why are you so convinced about it?
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I think it likely that their genes cause them to prefer certain kinds of faces (near-average, symmetrical, conventionally attractive ones), because genes determine the just about everything else. Our physical structures are written in our DNA, and special circumstances are required to alter those structures. There's nothing special about the brain that precludes DNA from instilling in it these instincts that studies have discovered. I have no reason to postulate other causes.

Since you are clearly not interested in presenting your own arguments in a straightforward manner, I'm done answering your questions for the time being. It's bad form to put forth flimsy hypotheses and then retreat to the Socratic method when challenged.
 
VH said:
When women complain that men are too attracted to ideals of beauty, I always have the urge to remind them that they are just as attracted to ideals of success and power.

Women don't want a guy with no job, no ambition, and no ability to protect them... but somehow that's okay despite it almost being a crime that men want a woman that is physically attractive.

Double standard, ladies.

Honestly, would you rather have these 'real men' over a rock star, rich company owner, doctor, or attorney?
No, you wouldn't.
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I will post this anyways even though I couldnt find the reference you'll just have to take my word for it...


I have read that women mate for life with the success and power guy, but procreate on the sly with men who are physically attractive.

In a few casual observations in my life I have noticed a tendancy for women to have children and/or marry a physically attractive guy in the womans youth and then when that doesnt work out they get with the rugged guy with a steady job. Im sure there are more factors that go into it but just enjoy my story for what its worth mkay.
 
@ TLM : well, sorry, to me there is nothing conclusive about the study you presented on the first page to challenge the claim that aesthetics are "fake" (i.e. learned). From then on, we proceeded discussing facts we both understand, with the slight difference that you state them as if they are final and inflexible, and I see variation and further research behind all of them.

The main difference between the brain and other organs is that the brain is very flexible, being a neural network, which (re)trains its circuits. I could be wrong, and aesthetics could be to a large extent inborn. But this doesn't explain why aesthetics vary so much across cultures, and why people with different genetic origin are easily adaptable to other cultures. Also why in recent ages aesthetics have changed much faster than genes could have.

I thank you for taking the time to debate, and apologize if my skills in debates are inferior to yours.
 
People have always created ideal standards of beauty.. in all cultures.

It has a lot to do with social class. (I'm not getting into the instinctual attraction that people have for others they want to have offspring and pass on genes with.)

In some cultures, (past and present) pale skin denotes wealth and refinery as the rich did not have to work outdoors... plumpness the same. In our culture... thin is seen as beautiful because wealthier people are able to eat healthier and being tan skinned is considered beautiful because it denotes that they have much leisure time to spend outdoors as opposed to working long hours indoors.

Also, women in advertising and the media in general are supposed to look perfect or ideal because they're there to sell products. The makeup and shampoo companies that fund the tv shows you watch and the magazines you read fund these things so that people will compare themselves to the ideal.. to buy the products hoping to achieve the ideal.. making those industries rich. Women are supposed to feel like they don't quite make the mark, and strive harder to purchase and use products that bring them close to the ideal..


BTW.. I think VH has a point.. It's not all one-sided.. Men have to contend with their own set of ideal standards to achieve. Since he mentions success... I'll say it makes perfect sense as in within Capitalism, one is always expected to advance classes "You can strike it rich!"--though realistically the odds are very slim to do so.

Not all men (in fact, probably most men) don't expect to be with or really want the women they see in advertisements and shows and movies.. but mass media has a much louder voice than Joe average.. and not all women are concerned with being taken care of by a successful and wealthy man-- It seems for the most part--both men and women realize these cultural ideals aren't really realistic--because we do tend to question them.. and yet, why are they still prevalent?
 
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bananaphone said:
People have always created ideal standards of beauty.. in all cultures.

It has a lot to do with social class. (I'm not getting into the instinctual attration that people have for others they want to have offspring and pass on genes with.)

In some cultures, (past and present) pale skin denotes wealth and refinery as the rich did not have to work outdoors... plumpness the same. In our culture... thin is seen as beautiful because wealthier people are able to eat healthier and being tan skinned is considered beautiful because it denotes that they have much leisure time to spend outdoors as opposed to working long hours indoors.

Also, women in advertising and the media in general are supposed to look perfect or ideal because they're there to sell products. The makeup and shampoo companies that fund the tv shows you watch and the magazines you read fund these things so that people will compare themselves to the ideal.. to buy the products hoping to achieve the ideal.. making those industries rich. Women are supposed to feel like they don't quite make the mark, and strive harder to purchase and use products that bring them close to the ideal..


BTW.. I think VH has a point.. It's not all one-sided.. Men have to contend with their own set of ideal standards to achieve. Since he mentions success... I'll say it makes perfect sense as in within Capitalism, one is always expected to advance classes "You can strike it rich!"--though realistically the odds are very slim to do so.
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Well I never claimed the it was one sided, and that women's problems were superior to mens.
 
I really didn't mean to imply that you did. I was going with the overall tone. I don't agree with everything else he stated, but you can't liberate one without the other.

Anyway. I initially just wanted to say in my first post: Standards of beauty in our culture are unrealistic because they have to be unrealistic.. otherwise there'd be no market for the industry...
 
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bananaphone said:
Anyway. I initially just wanted to say in my first post: Standards of beauty in our culture are unrealistic because they have to be unrealistic.. otherwise there'd be no market for the industry...
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Pretty much.
 
bananaphone said:
I really didn't mean to imply that you did. I was going with the overall tone. I don't agree with everything else he stated, but you can't liberate one without the other.

Anyway. I initially just wanted to say in my first post: Standards of beauty in our culture are unrealistic because they have to be unrealistic.. otherwise there'd be no market for the industry...
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I agree. Also the standards will never be attainable for everybody.
 
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Watch "America the Beautiful" and you wont think so positively of the Dove campaign. Hint: look at what they are actually advertising with those women.

Let me see if I can find a clip. No, I can't find it.
 
Dragon said:
Watch "America the Beautiful" and you wont think so positively of the Dove campaign. Hint: look at what they are actually advertising with those women.

Let me see if I can find a clip. No, I can't find it.
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Just tell us then?
 
Tamagochi said:
Why do those "real" women fret so much over what is shown on television/adds/magazines anyway.
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I don't think they're CHOOSING to feel as though they need to measure up to the culture's perceived standard of beauty. More or less, they're having it suggested to them in a subconscious way that it's a matter of survival. They need to live up to that standard to find a mate they can rely on, after all, right? Doesn't matter if it is not true; they're being bombarded with that message pretty much every day of their entire lives.
 
VH said:
Attraction is instinctive.

Males are attracted to physical beauty because it implies health, and the healthier a female, the more likely the offspring would live. males are also visually oriented because the human race evolved with males in the role of hunters.

Females are attracted to power, because they needed to be protected from predators 1 week out of 4 when they were bleeding, and during pregnancy and child rearing.

It's immaterial what people are attracted to. The simple fact of the matter is that these are base instincts and nature is not fair.
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I happened to be attracted to a man who was 300 pounds, has Autism, and is permanently disabled according to Social Security.

Certainly not attracted to power. I'm the powerful one in the relationship. Now he's not 300 pounds anymore (he's 210) but he's still disabled. He receives a disability check. I have swords and guns and know how to use them to protect the both of us.

I think you were stereotyping women a bit too much.
 
enfp can be shy said:
Why do cultures vary so much in their preferences[...]?
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Do they? Women are recognizably womanly pretty much EVERYWHERE. Differences are generally in how they are treated, what they wear, etc.
 
~jet said:
I don't think they're CHOOSING to feel as though they need to measure up to the culture's perceived standard of beauty. More or less, they're having it suggested to them in a subconscious way that it's a matter of survival. They need to live up to that standard to find a mate they can rely on, after all, right? Doesn't matter if it is not true; they're being bombarded with that message pretty much every day of their entire lives.
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This^^^ is the problem. you can't ignore something which pervades every aspect of culture. It's not just in the media, it's at work in how you're expected to dress, behave, etc. Promotions, etc. are often dependent on these visual aspects we display. I know that even if i may not personally determine my value through these ideals of beauty, i'm being judged by them everywhere.
 
I HAVE SWORDS AND GUNS!

Sorry that just sounded so badass I had to repeat it.
 
DoveAlexa said:
Just tell us then?
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No, I do a terrible job explaining things 2nd hand, and I don't want to spoil it for anyone who actually sees it.

I also don't want to have to argue with people because I took that piece of information out of context and presented it in a far-from-perfect format.
 
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I will give you this though. This is what those women were used to advertise.
 
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