reality collapsing

[basic]

what happens when your reality begins to collapse? when you don't understand. when you don't know how to react. when you simply can not comprehend reality?

 

[DrShephard]

That, my friend, is the call of enlightenment and awakening. When societal reality gets too unsatisfactory for someone, it starts to crumble and reveal the truth underneath... even if the truth isn't yet realized. Either you fall back harder than ever into the previous unsatisfactory reality, or you will eventually (in a moment when you aren't expecting it) stop, look around you, and mutter something in amazement as to how you have ever been concerned about reality or what all of this false, illusory garbage around you is.

I might suggest letting you know that everything will be perfectly fine no matter what happens - a little assurance for you. That, or listening to some Alan Watts on Youtube and reading Breakfast of Champions by Kurt Vonnegut.

 

[Soulful]

After a collapse, rebuilding is possible.
It takes strength to rebuild what has collapsed because more often than not, it includes rebuilding oneself.

I'm not sure if you are looking for a philosophical or personal answer... I wish you all the best, whichever it is.

 

[basic]

That, my friend, is the call of enlightenment and awakening. When societal reality gets too unsatisfactory for someone, it starts to crumble and reveal the truth underneath... even if the truth isn't yet realized. Either you fall back harder than ever into the previous unsatisfactory reality, or you will eventually (in a moment when you aren't expecting it) stop, look around you, and mutter something in amazement as to how you have ever been concerned about reality or what all of this false, illusory garbage around you is.

I might suggest letting you know that everything will be perfectly fine no matter what happens - a little assurance for you. That, or listening to some Alan Watts on Youtube and reading Breakfast of Champions by Kurt Vonnegut.

Although I agree completely with what you said, I was thinking of a more personal reality. I must say I've been "enlightened" or "awakened" when it comes to "societal reality" since a few years ago. (noagendashow.com)

But the reality I was thinking of is personal reality. Your truths, values, beliefs, predisposition...ceasing to exist or changing completely.

 

[DrShephard]

Care to elaborate more on what you're feeling? Go ahead and be honest. I promise I won't tell your friends or parents.

 

[basic]

Care to elaborate more on what you're feeling? Go ahead and be honest. I promise I won't tell your friends or parents.

I am intentionally being vague. Vague questions warrant a broad range of answers. This is a theoretical question I have been asking myself. I am not experiencing anything in particular.

 

[basic]

After a collapse, rebuilding is possible.
It takes strength to rebuild what has collapsed because more often than not, it includes rebuilding oneself.

I'm not sure if you are looking for a philosophical or personal answer... I wish you all the best, whichever it is.

I am just curious how people interpret this question, and how they answer. It's theoretical and philosophical.

 

[DrShephard]

I am intentionally being vague. Vague questions warrant a broad range of answers. This is a theoretical question I have been asking myself. I am not experiencing anything in particular.

A few things then, from my own spiritual delvings. Each a different situation:

A lot of the time our egos draw us into wanting things that we don't really need, and certainly won't be worth it. I remember jotting "Failure doesn't hurt and success doesn't bring pleasure, it's only the dwelling on either that do" down on a paper. When I graduated college - the thing I'd spent YEARS of effort trying to accomplish - I'd looked forward to it. When I was sitting in the crowd of other graduates, though, all that was on my mind was "Well, this sucks. I still have a lame-ass dinner to go to tonight too. I'm tired. I just want to go home and relax." The alternate being the touches of social anxiety I get. It feels so strong, but I know there have been plenty of times that I have caved and looked like a bitch in public, and I KNEW that I had. I woke up the next morning and I was still fine, still alive. I'd say to myself "Good God! All that anxiety stuff is just stupid!" We delude ourselves far too much and put far too many restraints on ourselves when none of it really matters anyway. Moral of the story? Do what you want, and don't care what other people think of you. In fact, and perhaps more importantly, don't care what YOU think of you.

Sometimes, spiritually, we get to a point where we know what NOT to do (don't do this stupid thing, it's just the ego wanting to do it), and falling into a state of bewilderment because we want to be that better self - to have fun, to accept reality, to accept the self, to see others as self and all of that - but it just isn't there. That same ego that desires; that can only be happy if it gets (fill in the blank), hides and tricks us into desiring to be spiritually full. In times like this, I think that it would be indulging in the ego to try to solve the problem. Maybe I'm wrong, but who knows? Perhaps the best thing to do would be to do something other than solving it, even if that task is meaningless. After all, is there anything to do that is really "meaningful" in this world? If you're struggling to determine what you need to do to feel spiritually fulfilled, you may be forgetting that you already are, always have been, and always will be spiritually fulfilled - the only problem is that you might forget it. The problem, then, may not lie in remembering, but in surrendering to the casual, relaxed nature of the true self. So go rent a movie from the redbox, lay on the living room carpet and take a nap, play some basketball on your old Atari 2600. The problem is the problem, not the answer. The truth will show itself when it wants.

Apathy is frequently a predecessor to a depressive episode. Feelings of detachment such as "I'm not happy, but I don't understand why I would be happy. It's not good and not bad. In fact, I don't understand how anyone in the world would feel any amount of joy or sorrow at all" can shortly turn into that icky phase of hopelessness and desperation. That phase passes though, and is just one of a cycle that we all (or so I think) pass through from time to time. It's an unpleasant part in the loop of flux when transitioning through realities and not being satisfied with where you are.

Maybe that will provide some insight based on my experiences, but maybe not. In either case, everything will always be just fine, even if, at times, it seems like it wont. That is the time to go and watch American Beauty again.

 

[basic]

by nature, and perhaps because I'm a type 5, I tend to disconnect myself from a lot of (what I see as) little superfluous things that are constantly bombarding my senses, and trying to occupy my mind and emotions. It's my nature to filter a lot. I guess this makes me come across as detached. I also think that sometimes a lot of things end up feeing meaningless to me. This is oversimplifying things, but one can view reality as an array of truths...sets of definitions/meanings. But if a lot of things end up seeming meaningless, pieces of reality can start fading. I'm not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing, or that means either or anything. I am simply saying that sometimes my reality seems to nullify itself, especially when it comes to how I think I should think/feel about a situation. And this sometimes results in a [initially] negative reaction on my part, but then I think about it and it doesn't really matter anymore. or at least I want to think that.

I wonder if anyone actually follows what I just wrote.

 

[myself]

After all, is there anything to do that is really "meaningful" in this world?

hmm

is there any meaning to anything?

it must vary for the individual

one who thinks he has meaning, might have meaning

yet we may view him and his actions as meaningless

it depends on how you look at it

...

maybe there is meaning and maybe not

we know that there is life and death, that's all we know.

so we ask what is the significance of this cycle?
the cosmos... trillions of stars and galaxies
existing for an inconceivable amount of time

us, just barely conscious of our place in the universe

it could be meaningless

but it could be beautiful too

could be both
maybe it depends on what you want

besides life and death what do we know?

 

[basic]

hmm

is there any meaning to anything?

it must vary for the individual

one who thinks he has meaning, might have meaning

yet we may view him and his actions as meaningless

it depends on how you look at it

...

maybe there is meaning and maybe not

we know that there is life and death, that's all we know.

so we ask what is the significance of this cycle?
the cosmos... trillions of stars and galaxies
existing for an inconceivable amount of time

us, just barely conscious of our place in the universe

it could be meaningless

but it could be beautiful too

could be both
maybe it depends on what you want

besides life and death what do we know?

I believe the very concept of meaning is very human, and should be treated on a human scale. Objects do not hold meaning. We give them meaning (not that meaning is not important). I live in human world where meaning is something is important to me. I treat meaning and reality as something that is very personal, and varies from person to person. I can not expect another person to think the same way I do because we all have different realities.

Anything that has meaning is from a human perspective. Yes, in the end I think it is only what you want it to be.

 

[muir]

Everything is in flux including us

Our perceptions of the world will constantly change as we grow and we receive fresh information

Sometimes our perception of reality can be shattered revealing a new unfamiliar reality behind it

This process can be alarming and painful but it is also thrilling and stimulating.

The current, overarching, reality which is imposed on us from above is capitalism. Capitalism prioritises PROFIT above everything else....also known as 'the bottom line'

The problem with putting profit before everything else is that it then comes before: people, animals, the environment, morality and truth. That is why the world is so full of pain and injustice.

The understanding that we live in a system that prizes profit above everything else is a good foundation to build a perception of reality on because it is true. The system can be changed however so there is always call for optimism.

But until that reality is changed to one where the essentials are looked after first instead of some abstract idea of money then we will continue to see problems

On a more spiritual note there are so many possibilities to explore but perhaps it is always a good idea to keep one foot anchored on the ground because there are some really heady ideas out there and thats without getting psychadelics involved!

Robert Anton Wilson's book 'The Cosmic Trigger' explores ideas of the nature of our perceptions of reality....lol.....I should really finish reading it myself now that I have recommended it! I think the gist is that the scope that we view reality through varies from person to person, culture to culture etc

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/archivos_pdf/cosmic_trigger.pdf

Terence McKenna has some interesting ideas about how culture is our 'operating system' and is not really our friend...it limits our potential:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c8an2XZ3MU"]YouTube - Terence Mckenna - Culture is your operating system[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP9EHn-Dmq0&feature=fvsr"]YouTube - Terence Mckenna Reclaim Your Mind[/ame]

I think that whatever we do in terms of exploring possibilities there is always the business of day to day life to deal with as well, so it is a case of keeping a balance and keeping one foot on the ground. In my opinion though it is a healthy mindset to recognise that the current system is not a healthy one and that although I must make my way in it and make a living etc that I must always remember that I am not for the current system and that there is always hope for something better to emerge and that that can be worked for in a myriad of ways.

You can't stay balanced by aligning yourself with a system that is unbalanced!

I used to work in mental health and saw the damage that the current profit obsessed system is doing to people's mental, emotional and physical health. It is my belief that the system is not in alignment with our true nature as humans and that it will always dehumanise us. Mental distress is often the symptom of people being pulled off balance by the system.

It seems there are two struggles for the individual there: one is how to operate within a corrupt and exploitative system and the other is how to change that system to something better......these might take an INFJ time and a lot of soul searching to figure out

 

[randomsomeone]

I have to agree with the idea of reality collapsing being an avenue for awakening and renewal. That is how it has always happened with me. Without exception, it was my assumptions about reality, not reality itself, that was collapsing. Why? Because generally my assumptions were based (at least in part) on illusion, and the illusions ultimately revealed themselves for what they were. Fortunately, I had the tools to make these sharp turns and readjustments in life, to continue moving forward when everything came crashing down (it can feel like a real death). Things became much, much deeper, clearer...and I have to say these things really changed me internally.

 

[jn56uytrx]

what happens when your reality begins to collapse? when you don't understand. when you don't know how to react. when you simply can not comprehend reality?

I have a sense of this as a personal question, and not just personal vs. philosophical, but also personal vs. universal.

In your language, I saw "when you don't know how to react". At least for me, that triggered the image of a collapse of an Fe built framework of reality. All my life I have looked for external clues to help me build my understanding of reality (currently defined by me as an Fe decision-making style). In immaturity (well, and truthfully still in some degree of maturity), this can be disorienting as different environments provide different declarations of "truth". One of my late youth/early adulthood life tasks was beginning to see that there is no static experience of truth declared in the world and working to find some framework that would allow me to integrate all the differing (and often vehemently held to by varying advocates) positions on the "reality" of life. At first it was frustrating and confusing. How can this person be so certain "this" is truth and that person so certain "that" is truth. Where's the truth found in all of it? I still can't say I have an answer to this question. Early on my solution was the blind men and the elephant story. Truth was hiding in the consolidation of each individual truth and, in my conclusion, not perceptible to non-omniscient human experience. I went with this perceptual framework of reality (or truth) for quite some time and it is still largely influential in my perspective. Because I felt some degree of confidence in this, I was able to more psychologically safely perceive conflicting perspectives as only seeing a portion of the truth and patiently receive dictates of "truth", but also disengage from them with some degree of personal confidence. I did not have to feel compelled to buy any whole ball of wax because I believed I had the abstract concept of "truth" down in the coordination of all the varying perspectives of truth even if, being human, I could not concretely envision it's full nature. That view appeals because it allowed me to integrate conflicting viewpoints and make peace with them and their advocates, but still gives a solid "truth" to anchor my life with.

I've begun to have glimmers of the arrogance and egocentricity within this however. I've recognized that all I've done is become my own advocate of a different, and personal, version of reality/"truth". I've begun to entertain the idea that "truth" or reality is an abstract we seem to have some need to create in order to be stable in this life. Everyone is an advocate for some form of reality, even if some of us are altruistically patient with those who can't see all that we do (read self-directed sarcasm), because to be without that might be to be without the boundary of ego, which I now believe (more reality advocacy), may be at the core of what human experience is about. Some idea and definition of reality seems to me to be intertwined with our own sense of boundary and definition of self. To lose that means to die to being human. (Yes, I'm slipping more solidly into advocating a perspective on reality) My current sense is that living means building realities--perhaps changing realities, altered based on our changing environment or self-experience. The process of losing a framework of reality while one is still human, I believe, means, at best, something perceived as a self-growth period--a caterpillar to butterfly transformation period--or, more traumatically, it could mean some degree of psychological distress (rooted in loss on grip of developed sense of ego) ranging from anxiety and uncertainty about how to function "properly" in an newly undefined world, to severe psychological disorders marked by inability to cope without a defined sense of personal reality that the surrounding human community can accept.

I can abstractly conceptualize the possibility of someone, while still living the ego-human experience, experiencing a disintegration of the boundary of ego maturely enough to still be able to function in an ego-human world without functionally operating as ego-human. I suppose this is what some might call "enlightened". I don't think this is something one can create for oneself though. I think it comes as one would be ready to mature into it.

And that's my current ego-human self-defined sense of "reality". But it's currently for me in enough of a transformation stage and enough out-of-sync with my previous "reality" and ego-human community that I currently experience a great deal of anxiety in life. I think the best I have to hope for at this stage of life is some caterpillar to butterfly experience. Part of me has the ego-centric hope that because I can envision enlightenment, it's actually something a few stages of "self-growth" down might be on my path, but I think the fact that I envision that possibility in a hierarchical way probably means I'm still pretty solidly drawn with ego borders.

 

[randomsomeone]

There was one notable episode in my life in which reality seemed to fall apart all at once...I remember it quite vividly as you might expect. I cannot begin to convey to you the magnitude of the mammoth event that brought this episode about, but there I was, free-falling into the abyss, into total, soul-wrenching, terrible blackness. Except for one thing. For some unexplainable reason, and quite unexpectedly, I was not falling....I was "just there." How could that be!? Nothing I knew of could explain it. But somehow, it was very, very real to me. It was as if just let go of everything I knew, vitually shut-down, but somehow reality was bigger than all that and held me aloft. It did not depend on me at all, nor my ability to grasp it, articulate it, or figure it out. It just was and it was real.

Still in overload, I got some pastoral advise from a friend. He said simply, "What you need to do now is rest." And so I did, and have done so for the past 20 years. It's as if everything was inverted and turned upside down...but everything actually worked this way. I was moving with some great current, not against. In fact, generally there was no need to even row!!

That was an episode from which I extracted much and continue to...a total mode change. I won't go into it all past this experience since it may not apply, but I do value that time. How so much darkness, calamity, waste, and ruin can coexist in the exact same space as liberty, peace, and clarity is beyond me, but it was so.

 

[acd]

Although I agree completely with what you said, I was thinking of a more personal reality. I must say I've been "enlightened" or "awakened" when it comes to "societal reality" since a few years ago. (noagendashow.com)

But the reality I was thinking of is personal reality. Your truths, values, beliefs, predisposition...ceasing to exist or changing completely.

I may know what you mean.. but it is difficult to explain. Awhile ago I went through something where I realized: "I am not my beliefs" "I am not my opinions or values" and then who am I? It started to seem like my personal reality and self-identity was composed of different posters and advertisements that had been plastered over a brick wall throughout the decades. Does that make sense? Since they originated outside of me but resonated within me somehow.. and internally I feel I am fluid and changing.

What did I do about it? Nothing conclusive yet. I'm still reeling a little bit from it if I think about it. Maybe I wonder more about where my perspective comes from. But I don't really have the mental capacity to get into a whole earth shattering analysis of my own epistemology.

 

[just me]

by nature, and perhaps because I'm a type 5, I tend to disconnect myself from a lot of (what I see as) little superfluous things that are constantly bombarding my senses, and trying to occupy my mind and emotions. It's my nature to filter a lot. I guess this makes me come across as detached. I also think that sometimes a lot of things end up feeing meaningless to me. This is oversimplifying things, but one can view reality as an array of truths...sets of definitions/meanings. But if a lot of things end up seeming meaningless, pieces of reality can start fading. I'm not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing, or that means either or anything. I am simply saying that sometimes my reality seems to nullify itself, especially when it comes to how I think I should think/feel about a situation. And this sometimes results in a [initially] negative reaction on my part, but then I think about it and it doesn't really matter anymore. or at least I want to think that.

I wonder if anyone actually follows what I just wrote.

I have noticed over the years time spans when I see things differently, often health or mood related. I have noticed life experiences involving loss to make myself look at things differently. If reality is an array of truths...
sets of definitions/ meanings, and if you are speaking on a personal basis regarding how you might think or feel about a situation; I must say in my opinion seeing and feeling something to be different all of a sudden is most likely a thought process to better understand a specific situation or set of meanings. If it causes us to question the way we looked at things in the past, I would call it possibly a learning experience if we look for the positive in it and confusion or denial for the moment should we decide to give it an ear and think about it over time. If you want to think it does not matter anymore, I will guess that will change as time passes by.

Filtering things is not a form of detachment by itself. We sometimes have our thoughts somewhere else and do not consider it the time or place to ponder the subject indepth. I have found it surprising when that time and place seems to just happen later in life when something else might trigger our thoughts again. It may be when spending time alone. It is possible to feel someone is trying to tell you something. It is possible to think things are not coincidental. I have found it important to listen to these things for reasons I wish not to expound on at the moment. I try not to think something that would have me to feel this way does not matter any more.

I wish you well with this. I may be off track, but my well-wishes are not.

 

[Tulip]

You can always construct another reality.
Reality is filtered by your perception and does not have to be absolute.

My imaginary world is my reality.

:violin:

 

[nil]

But the reality I was thinking of is personal reality. Your truths, values, beliefs, predisposition...ceasing to exist or changing completely.

This happened to me not too long. I resisted at first preferring not to have my deep-rooted personal beliefs ripped from under me (leaving no solid ground whatsoever) but as everything I was doing and learning indicated that this was necessary and that what I purportedly believed was nothing more than a delusion of self-perception, I had to let go. It left me depressed for a long time, and it still has lingering side effects, as my realizations had deep mental and emotional ramifications.

My beliefs consistently betray me, and I am always uncertain of everything. I have gone about as far from where I was as I can go- from a Christian who strongly believed in God, objective morality, and heaven (but not hell) to an agnostic and nihilist. Making the transition from theist to agnostic wasn't too extremely difficult, since I have never seen any evidence whatsoever for or against God (though I suspect that I still have slightly theistic tendencies, but my conception of God is far, far divorced from the general Christian view). It was fairly easy to give up a system of objective morality as well, since I didn't believe in christianity anymore, was non-judgmental in almost every way, and didn't see any reason an objective moral system should exist. The hardest belief to give up was probably my belief in an afterlife. As a Christian, I was a universalist. I disregarded hell and believed that a God described as he is in Christianity would never construct such a place, even for a being so evil as Satan (who I didn't believe was so evil or even that he existed), and also had considerable contempt for people who thought that hell was something to the extent of being a balance for there being no fairness in this world. In truth, I hate every single one of them. They are so distorted... a place of eternal torment should never be a ramification for actions in a temporal plane of existence, especially considering... oh, forget it. I could rant about this for pages, probably.

The hardest part to deal with (which I am still dealing with, and doubt I will ever fully resolve) is the realization of complete and total meaningless in everything, followed by the astounding amount of subjectivity present. Life has no point or purpose, I am fully convinced. We live for about seventy to eighty years in a world filled with hate and war and death and misery and I cannot see why anyone would want it. The people I know live out their lives in searching and fulfillment of temporal and foolish goals and successes. People find happiness in many things, but none of them fulfill one's innate desire. So they just keep going, continuing on a frenzy of self-destructive behavior and utter chaos expecting a result they won't get. All is empty and nothing at the end of the day. What is fulfillment? I deny happiness. To the day I die.

They do these things... because they need them... to drown everything out. To suppress the innate desire to have something deep and meaningful. To deny the utter meaningless of existence and the universe. To stifle contemplations and questions, because those will lead to truth, which they fear facing, because it will result in exactly what I have come to. There is nothing good on anyone's deathbed... I sense remorse, regret, and unfulfilled desire on mine... maybe hope, as well... hope which could never possibly exist or be manifest on this earth, trapped in this physical body and useless existence.

I don't see it, the reason... I have nothing to live for. Often I also wonder why anyone would want to have children and question why I was conceived. Having children in light of the circumstances of the world is nothing more than fulfillment of the most basic selfish desire... why bring someone into this...?

I have more to say... I always feel I have more to say... but I have no means to say it...

Regardless, this rant has gone on long enough.

I have insulted a great many people with this post... sorry. Specifically, if you have children, sorry... words are potent.

 

[Arsal]

But the reality I was thinking of is personal reality. Your truths, values, beliefs, predisposition...ceasing to exist or changing completely.

I have experienced something like this. I wrote about it over at intpf:

"There came a time when I started questioning everything I'd taken granted for. I suddenly felt like I'd limited myself to a singular worldview for so long that it had become impossible for me to know what was objectively right. I had to change that, take a step back and truly observe the world in depth before I could make any reservations again.

I realized my personal value system was completely biased. I had to redo everything, start from the beginning, discard all preconceived notions about the world. And so I did. I became obsessed with "objectivity". I discarded every single one of my beliefs in favour of a neutral worldview, where I could look at everything without any prejudices and then reconstruct myself. One of the major changes I made at this point was to become agnostic ("how can I trust my religion to be right when there are other religions in the world that believe the same?")"

This was 2 years ago. I still haven't quite recovered, or perhaps, I've resigned myself to the fact that I can never have a solid understanding of the universe which is far, far more flexible and vast than I previously assumed it to be.