Barnabas
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Or as it's been said Cogito Ergo Sum
Reality is an Illusion
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Or as it's been said Cogito Ergo Sum
sprinkles
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That's actually an attempt to logically prove that Descartes exists and has nothing to do with thought shaping reality as is often mistakenly assumed.
The key is in the use of the word "ergo" which here is basically saying "because of this, I can conclude that". For example you could say "I am cold, ergo I am." This obviously doesn't imply that being cold causes you or anything to exist. What it is saying is that because you know you're cold, you also know you exist because something is there to be cold. That's exactly what Descartes was up to here.
muir
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The following is derived and quoted from David Ickes book 'the perception deception'
The world is not solid. Atoms are full of empty space with electrons flying around a nucleus. If an atom was the size of a cathedral the nucleus would be the size of a coin. The electrons and the nucleus are merely packets of energy though and are not solid
When you consider that our society and mainstream science are built on the premise that our reality is solid then it becomes clear why there is so much confusion out there
We are consciousness....which is awareness (the state of being aware). Awareness has no form but can take illusory form. Awareness is infinate and eternal and exists beyond time which is itself an illusion
''Awareness or consciousness is the only state that truely exists. The only certainty is eternity-all the rest is what Consciousness chooses to create and experience within that eternity, that infinity. Imagine one single Infinate Consciousness experiencing itself. You, me, everything ARE that Infinate Consciousness-every plant, tree, insect, breath of air and drop of rain. We may look different, but we are expressions of the same ocean of Consciousness. The white crests of ocean waves look different to the rest of the ocean, but they are still the same ocean'' -David Icke
What makes us feel different is our point of attention in this reality....people end up identifying with their name, their body, their nationality, their religion etc. But we are not really those things...we are infinate awareness having an experience in this reality
From birth we are programmed with these ideas about who or what we are which leads us further from the truth
''The human body is a highly advanced biological computer system that allows expressions of Infinate Awareness (points of attention) to experience this 'world', this reality, which is nothing more than a band of frequency within the Infinate Possibility. Most people think that when they look 'through' their eyes that they are seeing all there is to see at their particular 'location' when in fact they are 'seeing' (actually decoding) only a tiny range of frequency within the electromagnetic spectrum and known as 'visible light'.'' - Icke
What we see (visible light) is only, according to scientists 0.005% of what exists in mass/matter in the universe, so virtually the entire universe is invisible to human sight and technology and this universe is just one in infinate numbers of universes and realities within Infinate Awareness (infinate possibility)
We are tuned to pick up one reality...one frequency, like a radio picking up one station. We decode that frequency into our pereived reality. Our biological computer system is focussing our attention within the narrow band of visible light so that is what we perceive and experience.
We only see what light reflects off and anything else is invisible to us.
Icke then uses the example of a wall with a window in it. So the electromagnetic field we call a 'window' (glass) allows light to pass through, but the elctromagnetic field we call a 'wall' does not as it absorbs some light and reflects the rest. So if we are surrounded by walls we are devoid of visible light and in darkness.
So our DNA shaped biological computer decodes the visible light frequency information it is tuned to receive. That biological computer (the body) is only a point of awareness in infinate possiblity.
Awareness needs a biological computer to interact with this 'world' (this frequency band called 'visible light') because our Awareness is resonating too quickly to interact directly with this reality. So awareness uses the outer shell (our body) that resonates within the frequency range that we wish to experience.
What the control system does is programme us from a yound age to identify with the shell instead of realising that we are infinate consciousness operating through the shell. We only use the shell to interface with this reality.
Body-mind is like a desktop computer whilst the person (consciousness) is at the mouse and keyboards
Body-mind is a vehicle for consciousness to experience this reality. We are in this world but not of it.
''The goal of the control system is to disconnect body-mind from consciousness by attracting our point of attention into Body-Mind (the 5 senses) at the exclusion of everything else. If we succumb to that, 'we', our point of attention, are both in this world AND of it'' (Icke) and that's when the control system really has you in its grasp
''without the wisdom and big picture influence of Consciousness, you only have Body-Mind to work things out''
Body-mind is in this world and has no other point of reference and so it is shaped by ''education (reality programming) system, the media (reality-programming), family, friends, scientists and academics (reality programmed reality programmers)''
''It has indeed all got so confusing that human life is largely about becomming programmed and then programming others, or insisting that they must be as programmed as you are (conforming to the manipulated-programmed- 'consensus')''
So the programmed majority do not like it when people have a different reality or sense of self to the norm because you are not following their programme
The body itself is of course not solid either as there is no physical reality; the universe is an ''energetic information construct'' very much the same in principle to the wireless internet
''the universe is a tapestry of resonating waveform information fields beyond visible light from which we decode information with our thoughts and emotions....i call this waveform construct the Metaphysical Universe or the Cosmic Internet. Waveform can store extraordinary amounts of information and everything that we 'see' is decoded from this waveform level of the universe into the reality that is called visible light-the 'world' of the so called conscious mind.
The five senses of sight, hearing, touch, smell and taste are DECODING systems. They turn waveform information into electrical information that is communicated to the brain which together with the whole genetic structure, decodes the electrical into the digital and holographic (illusory 'physical'). It is the same information at all these stages, but takes a different form. What scientists call atoms are energetic expressions of this decoding process and so they have no need to be solid to contribute to a world that isn't solid.''
So why can't we walk through walls?
''Resistance does not come from solidity. It is caused by the meeting of two different electromagnetic fields-is energetic resistance that we only decode to appear 'physical' resistance.
The world is not solid. Atoms are full of empty space with electrons flying around a nucleus. If an atom was the size of a cathedral the nucleus would be the size of a coin. The electrons and the nucleus are merely packets of energy though and are not solid
When you consider that our society and mainstream science are built on the premise that our reality is solid then it becomes clear why there is so much confusion out there
We are consciousness....which is awareness (the state of being aware). Awareness has no form but can take illusory form. Awareness is infinate and eternal and exists beyond time which is itself an illusion
''Awareness or consciousness is the only state that truely exists. The only certainty is eternity-all the rest is what Consciousness chooses to create and experience within that eternity, that infinity. Imagine one single Infinate Consciousness experiencing itself. You, me, everything ARE that Infinate Consciousness-every plant, tree, insect, breath of air and drop of rain. We may look different, but we are expressions of the same ocean of Consciousness. The white crests of ocean waves look different to the rest of the ocean, but they are still the same ocean'' -David Icke
What makes us feel different is our point of attention in this reality....people end up identifying with their name, their body, their nationality, their religion etc. But we are not really those things...we are infinate awareness having an experience in this reality
From birth we are programmed with these ideas about who or what we are which leads us further from the truth
''The human body is a highly advanced biological computer system that allows expressions of Infinate Awareness (points of attention) to experience this 'world', this reality, which is nothing more than a band of frequency within the Infinate Possibility. Most people think that when they look 'through' their eyes that they are seeing all there is to see at their particular 'location' when in fact they are 'seeing' (actually decoding) only a tiny range of frequency within the electromagnetic spectrum and known as 'visible light'.'' - Icke
What we see (visible light) is only, according to scientists 0.005% of what exists in mass/matter in the universe, so virtually the entire universe is invisible to human sight and technology and this universe is just one in infinate numbers of universes and realities within Infinate Awareness (infinate possibility)
We are tuned to pick up one reality...one frequency, like a radio picking up one station. We decode that frequency into our pereived reality. Our biological computer system is focussing our attention within the narrow band of visible light so that is what we perceive and experience.
We only see what light reflects off and anything else is invisible to us.
Icke then uses the example of a wall with a window in it. So the electromagnetic field we call a 'window' (glass) allows light to pass through, but the elctromagnetic field we call a 'wall' does not as it absorbs some light and reflects the rest. So if we are surrounded by walls we are devoid of visible light and in darkness.
So our DNA shaped biological computer decodes the visible light frequency information it is tuned to receive. That biological computer (the body) is only a point of awareness in infinate possiblity.
Awareness needs a biological computer to interact with this 'world' (this frequency band called 'visible light') because our Awareness is resonating too quickly to interact directly with this reality. So awareness uses the outer shell (our body) that resonates within the frequency range that we wish to experience.
What the control system does is programme us from a yound age to identify with the shell instead of realising that we are infinate consciousness operating through the shell. We only use the shell to interface with this reality.
Body-mind is like a desktop computer whilst the person (consciousness) is at the mouse and keyboards
Body-mind is a vehicle for consciousness to experience this reality. We are in this world but not of it.
''The goal of the control system is to disconnect body-mind from consciousness by attracting our point of attention into Body-Mind (the 5 senses) at the exclusion of everything else. If we succumb to that, 'we', our point of attention, are both in this world AND of it'' (Icke) and that's when the control system really has you in its grasp
''without the wisdom and big picture influence of Consciousness, you only have Body-Mind to work things out''
Body-mind is in this world and has no other point of reference and so it is shaped by ''education (reality programming) system, the media (reality-programming), family, friends, scientists and academics (reality programmed reality programmers)''
''It has indeed all got so confusing that human life is largely about becomming programmed and then programming others, or insisting that they must be as programmed as you are (conforming to the manipulated-programmed- 'consensus')''
So the programmed majority do not like it when people have a different reality or sense of self to the norm because you are not following their programme
The body itself is of course not solid either as there is no physical reality; the universe is an ''energetic information construct'' very much the same in principle to the wireless internet
''the universe is a tapestry of resonating waveform information fields beyond visible light from which we decode information with our thoughts and emotions....i call this waveform construct the Metaphysical Universe or the Cosmic Internet. Waveform can store extraordinary amounts of information and everything that we 'see' is decoded from this waveform level of the universe into the reality that is called visible light-the 'world' of the so called conscious mind.
The five senses of sight, hearing, touch, smell and taste are DECODING systems. They turn waveform information into electrical information that is communicated to the brain which together with the whole genetic structure, decodes the electrical into the digital and holographic (illusory 'physical'). It is the same information at all these stages, but takes a different form. What scientists call atoms are energetic expressions of this decoding process and so they have no need to be solid to contribute to a world that isn't solid.''
So why can't we walk through walls?
''Resistance does not come from solidity. It is caused by the meeting of two different electromagnetic fields-is energetic resistance that we only decode to appear 'physical' resistance.
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dogman6126
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Lol, and that's what happens when someone like icke tries to talk about science. I read four paragraphs and I stopped there. Sure science is based on the premise that things are solid, but that is with the understanding that solidity is a specific effect of electrostatic interactions. He tries to portray science as flawed with his comment but it only serves to show his own ignorance. Also, his way of offering awareness as some kind of magical thing is at best fantasy. He has no reason to say that other than his own wishful thinking. I mean sure, if you don't want to think of an objective reality and then follow that up with a perspective from a human, then it can already that all that is real is in the human mind. But, because of that conclusion you don't know if anything is real, you would literally be living in your own fantasy world where anything is possible. With his perspective, even theworld of the schizophrenic must be real. Seeing as that is objectively false, his premise must be false. Oh wait, he denies the idea of objective view points. How convenient. Well, then unicorns are real and chocolate comes out my pinky finger, it's actually really awesome. Oh wait, no it doesn't. Darn it.
This guy is only talking about things from the perspective of a person's
mind, not an objective perspective. Really, what he is saying is true, but only inside the mind. His view cannot describe reality outside the mind. Each of his points aretrue, but what most people call it is imagination. That's where his points of time and reality are true. Not outside in the objective sense.
muir
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lol
Here's a good clip that shows Icke years ago discussing this theory of multiple realites being like frequencies existing in the same space...following his clip is another clip that has the world famous theoretical physicist Michio kaku saying years after Icke exactly the same thing!
The scientists are now saying what Icke was saying
LMAO
[video=youtube;rVWWQKU_-G0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWWQKU_-G0[/video]
dogman6126
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Ok, first I'm going to point out that the idea that Kaku is talking about is but one possible theory to describe or interpret quantum theory in relation to multiple universes. There are many many other theories and I would go so far as to say the one talked about here is no where near the leading theory.
Ugh, I cut that video at 3:30 because I hit several fundamental errors and I won't be able to remember them all. Ok, so for the sake of argument, lets go ahead and presuppose his part about all parallel universes all existing in the same space but at different frequencies. At 3:30 when he's elaborating on it, he's talking about how we use those frequencies to decode reality for us. Then he talks about wifi signals interfering/limiting/effecting that amount of reality we can detect. Well, if we presuppose the part about the universe, his second part is completely impossible. The first part can only exist if all of reality vibrates at a specific quantum level. All of this universe would share that vibration. Other universes would have a different vibration allowing them to exist in a different way in the same space. This is like his example with the radio waves. However, each quantum resonance would exists in its own way of its own and not interact with the quantum resonance of other universes. A quantum resonance would be an intrinsic part of reality shared by everything in reality. The fundamental nature of all matter. If any thing of matter where to alter its quantum resonance frequencies (presupposing that it exists and if such an alteration could even be possible) then it would literally phase out of this universe with no trace of its existence. That would be because with an altered quantum resonance, you are now "in tune" with another universe. It's like changing frequencies on your radio. You would no longer be in the other universe. Now, this is all from the perspective of a quantum level particle/waveform. this would be impossible to exist on a large scale. Presupposing that a shift in quantum resonance could happen, it would occur on a random chance. That would mean that each individual quantum particle/wave form has its own probability of shifting making the chances of any large scale object shifting and maintaining the same form neigh on impossible. This first part would then also break the law of conservation of mass/energy in the universe because something would literally shift out of existence without an energy or matter dispersal. There would also be evidence of this that science would detect. Now, since this does not happen, that supports the idea that the quantum resonances do not shift. This would also in turn support the idea that the quantum resonances do not interact at all by interference or other interactions because that too would be apparent by the way matter becomes more or less "real". Seeing as that does not happen, it seems reasonable to conclude that such quantum resonances are simply an intrinsic property of the universe. Now, when he talks about wifi or other things interacting with this intrinsic property, that is simply false because those wifi and other things are a part of that quantum resonance and also exist with a quantum resonance. Just because we cannot detect it does not mean it is more or less real, so since it is just as real, then it also has a part in this intrinsic property of reality. Therefore, his conclusions are illogical.
To be nice, I will continue the video now.
4:20, again, if you alter your quantum resonance frequency, you will shift out of this reality. That is an intrinsic fact of the theory of a quantum resonance.
Ugh, there are two things that this might be. Either Icke's theory is the same as Michio Kaku's description, and Icke has absolutely no idea what he's talking about and he's just throwing words together that sound good. Or, these two theories are fundamentally different and they just used a similar example to explain there very different theories. This would seem to be the case. And it is ridiculous of you muir to make claims like you just did, that current day physicists are saying the same things as Icke based only on the idea that they used a similar metaphor. That is once again a faulty logic of yours.
I don't know why you believe this guy muir, unless you just want to believe him. None of his concepts hold up. I mean you have to pick either on objective reality in this sense or not, but he's trying to merge the two in a way that makes absolutely no sense, but it sounds cool with words. It is logically and factually incorrect.
muir
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It's right there man....they are saying the same thing
Take a deep breath...don't be the guy Kaku is talking about who freaks out
It's not that i want to believe Icke that is the problem....personally i'd rather all that stuff wasn't true.....the real problem is that you do not want to believe it and as a result you choose not to
You will continue to go down dead ends in your explorations into 'science' until you understand that everything is energy and nothing is solid
This knowledge has been known for millenia. I heard about the holographic universe concept for example through research into the occult
The hindus speak of the illusion of reality as being called 'maya'
Even the helio biblios (sun book) known to the layman as the 'holy bible' tells us that in the beginning was the word....resonance
The compass and square of freemasonry represents matter and consciousness with consciousness giving form to matter. These are known as the male and female or active and passive principles
Buddhist monks chant 'ohm' because of its resnanance properties (AUM is the sound made as you roll sound around and then out of your mouth)
The shamans used drums and chanting to change peoples frequencies as a way to dispel bad energies
Catholic preists use prayer carried out by loved ones in exorcisms to change the frequency of the afflicted person (so that they are no longer compatible with the entity and it can no longer synche with them)
The ancient egyptians created their hieroglyphs as phonetic symbols...sound based language
Its all about frequency
This is why people pray and fast and sing and whirl and a vast array of other religious pratcices to shift their resonance
This has all been understood for a long long time
Science is just beginning to elucidate these old ideas
Honestly man...you talk about science with a certain reverence but it's just an offshoot of the occult...it grew out of alchemy. The occult is working with technology that has not been discussed in mainstream science because the control system does not want you to have access to that information which is why there are all sorts of top secret military bases
Kanamori posted a very interesting post about how the nazis rejected what they saw as jewish science (eg Einsteinian physics) and created their own paradigm
They did this through sending parties of scientists to Tibet to speak to the monks there who have ancient books. The red cap monks are the solar illuminati current and the yellow caps are the lunar luminari current.
From these ancient books full of mythology the nazis drew up concepts based around whirling cyclical energies and built advanced rocket technology and soemthing called 'the bell'
The nazis took as their symbol the swastika or black sun which depicts whirling motion
Honestly man...the world is a far stranger place then many people think
Here's a BBC docmuntary looking at parallel universe theory...but beware about raising science onto a pedestal...it is really only a method
[video=youtube;2Ds47ozzSrU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ds47ozzSrU[/video]
Take a deep breath...don't be the guy Kaku is talking about who freaks out
It's not that i want to believe Icke that is the problem....personally i'd rather all that stuff wasn't true.....the real problem is that you do not want to believe it and as a result you choose not to
You will continue to go down dead ends in your explorations into 'science' until you understand that everything is energy and nothing is solid
This knowledge has been known for millenia. I heard about the holographic universe concept for example through research into the occult
The hindus speak of the illusion of reality as being called 'maya'
Even the helio biblios (sun book) known to the layman as the 'holy bible' tells us that in the beginning was the word....resonance
The compass and square of freemasonry represents matter and consciousness with consciousness giving form to matter. These are known as the male and female or active and passive principles
Buddhist monks chant 'ohm' because of its resnanance properties (AUM is the sound made as you roll sound around and then out of your mouth)
The shamans used drums and chanting to change peoples frequencies as a way to dispel bad energies
Catholic preists use prayer carried out by loved ones in exorcisms to change the frequency of the afflicted person (so that they are no longer compatible with the entity and it can no longer synche with them)
The ancient egyptians created their hieroglyphs as phonetic symbols...sound based language
Its all about frequency
This is why people pray and fast and sing and whirl and a vast array of other religious pratcices to shift their resonance
This has all been understood for a long long time
Science is just beginning to elucidate these old ideas
Honestly man...you talk about science with a certain reverence but it's just an offshoot of the occult...it grew out of alchemy. The occult is working with technology that has not been discussed in mainstream science because the control system does not want you to have access to that information which is why there are all sorts of top secret military bases
Kanamori posted a very interesting post about how the nazis rejected what they saw as jewish science (eg Einsteinian physics) and created their own paradigm
They did this through sending parties of scientists to Tibet to speak to the monks there who have ancient books. The red cap monks are the solar illuminati current and the yellow caps are the lunar luminari current.
From these ancient books full of mythology the nazis drew up concepts based around whirling cyclical energies and built advanced rocket technology and soemthing called 'the bell'
The nazis took as their symbol the swastika or black sun which depicts whirling motion
Honestly man...the world is a far stranger place then many people think
Here's a BBC docmuntary looking at parallel universe theory...but beware about raising science onto a pedestal...it is really only a method
[video=youtube;2Ds47ozzSrU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ds47ozzSrU[/video]
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Cornerstone
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And what an illusion!
dogman6126
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Lol, dude no its not. They just used a similar metaphore. Kaku is talking about the intrinsic nature of the quantum field of our universe. If they resonates on the same frequency, that is to say that all of our reality resonates on that frequency. In this theory, each reality has its own resonance frequency. This frequency wouldn't really do anything other than define the different way each separate reality exists. What Icke is talking about is some field that fills everything in the universe and that things like consciousness and ideas and thoughts can float around in and interact. These are completely different things.
Science is what has proven that everything is energy and nothing is solid. Your statement is inherently false if your basis is that my misunderstanding is because science is held back by not understanding the intrinsic nature of the universe. But it is in fact science that has proven the premise of your argument.
It has been an interesting thought experiment for sure. The earliest mention of the idea that reality is not what it seems is in Plato's Allegory of the Cave. However, its two different things from saying reality is not what it seems and throwing in wishful thinking. You need to choose between an objective reality or no objective reality in such an argument. Icke seems to follow the idea of a non objective reality, but then applies methods that only work if you are following the premise of an objective reality. That's like using the laws of general relativity to describe quantum dynamics. It doesn't work because your working with a different premise. This isn't even science, this is how you logically approach a question.
Yes, frequency is something that has some very interesting effects, but it isn't some magical can do anything phenomenon. The difference between the resonance of the quantum field and the resonance that Icke is talking about (meaning effecting the consciousness of a person) is like saying that the frequency of sound waves will alter the frequency of light waves. Frequency only exists in a specific medium, and that medium determines what effects the changes in frequency will have. The intrinsic frequency of the universe is a medium that is different than what is needed for it to effect consciousness.
Again, going along with the theory of different quantum resonances determining which universes you are in like Icke is talking about, then shifting your resonance will not shift your perspective, but shift you out of this universe completely. But because the resonance is on a quantum level, there is no reasonable mechanism that could shift the resonance frequency of a structure such as a human body unless your relying on a divine creator to regulate the system [/QUOTE]
Science developed from natural philosophy, and some natural philosophy has concepts that have held up under scientific scrutiny. Simply by the fact of science developing from natural philosophy, some of these old principles will turn out to be correct. But you talking about something different than like atoms or gravity.
Science developed out of natural philosophy as a mode of objectively analyzing and approaching questions to find a quantifiable, and objectively correct answer. I agree with the idea of an objective reality, and science is the most reliable method to exploring an objective reality. By far more effective than reading David Icke and taking everything he says at his word like you seem to do....
I have not taken the time to confirm your claim here, nor do I care to. However, it is obvious that creative ingenuity can be triggered by religious research. But that means they get an idea, and then they work out the engineering and physics to make it reality. It's not magic. It's simply creativity. Which a poet would call a kind of magic, but its not magic in the traditional sense.
This sounds a lot like symbolism which is far more simply explained by a persons psyche trying to impose a pattern on something that isn't really there rather than some mystical energy that the Nazis revered. However, since I don't know and have never researched why the Nazis chose that symbol, I don't know their reasoning. But their spiritual reasoning does not objectively prove anything about mystical energies.
Look, either you believe in an objective reality or you don't. If you do like me, then you are approaching these questions with a logic of picking and choosing what you want to believe which is wrong. If you don't believe in an objective reality, then you are trying to use the methods applied to those who believe in an objective reality to explain what's going on in your own little world which simply won't work per the example I listed above.
muir
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lol
no dude
they are both saying that there are infinate different realities out there (see the documentary i posted)
Science is a method
Consciousness derived the hypothesis and tested it using the scientific method
The scientists have different theories until they find a paradigm they agree on
No
It was someone elses idea but Platos name gets attached to it...it's older than Plato
Also Plato is not talking about different realites he is talking about different perceptions of reality
The people in the cave are only aware of the images cast onto the wall of the cave...that forms their perception of reality. It is only when one of them is released that they leave the cave and become aware of a wider reality
This would be like a person who thinks that a bunch of muslims organised a mass hijaking of several planes from a cave in Afghanistan using nothing more than flimsy box cutters and managed to outsmart the most sophisticated air defence in the world and crash those aircrafts into several targets through impossible manouvres somehow managing to knock down an extra building that never got hit suddenly getting new information and insight and realising that they have been lied to and that everythign they have been told as they grew up was a lie and as they explore the information they become aware of a greater reality
When you say a 'non objective reality' do you mean a subjective reality?
No that's not what he is saying
He is saying it is all one thing...the same thing
No he is saying WE are the divine creator
No you are wrong
The father of empiricism was a rosicrucian occultist
No ****rolls eyes**** i don't just read david icke as you should have gathered by now from the vast number of different sources and people i have posted information from including in this thread a BBC documentary full of scientists speaking
You are missing the point.....icke is saying it is NOT objective reality he is saying we are the divine creator experiencing this reality subjectively
Alan watts describes this by saying: 'the universe is experiencing itself through us'
Lol you have no idea what magick is!
It is about perceiving underlying laws of nature...PATTERNS
These scientists have taken the story so far....that there are multiple realities...but they haven't taken things to the next step...which is that we are consciousness having an experience in this reality
Neither will you hear kaku say that because kaku is part of the new world order
he is aligned with the priests of matter...who do not want you thinking beyond that
But the documentary shows how bizzare science is at its cutting edge which helps to put ickes comments into perspective
Barnabas
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Descartes used it as the basis that God exists arguing his contemporary David Hume who posited that you couldn't really know or be certain of anything. I relate it to the topic of the Illusion because at the end of the day in doubting the illusions you find reality. You know that for certain that you think there is a or is not a illusion which proves that if nothing else you doubt is real.
dogman6126
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ok so sure the very must fundamental idea of there theories are the same. If your saying that supports the rest of Icke's claims, then that is just blatently ridiculous. Do you really think Michio Kaku would agree with half of what Icke says?
And science is a method that objectively proved it....you know, a way to be confident in our assessment of the world around us further than just, "oh this sounds cool, lets go with that"
This I made a typo. When I edited that sentence, I accidently took out the main point of it. I meant to say that The earliest mention (that I've heard) of the idea that reality is not what it seems is in Plato's Allegory of the Cave. I was not meaning to attribute the idea to Plato, rather just that was my first time hearing the idea.
And please reread my sentence. I specifically said "reality is not what it seems" which is exactly what the cave was about. I wasn't so much talking about the idea of alternate realities, but rather the more fundamental concept that reality is not what it seems.
I believe so, yes.
Well if he is saying it is all one thing, then he is objectively wrong. Science can easily prove that as with the sound waves/light waves example. They physically are not the same thing
The idea of a divine creator to regulate the system is to say that a third party aware of all of the everything can regulate when/how/where the resonances are altered so as not to cause the person to just fall apart. We cannot be the divine creator in this case because we are not aware on that level.
It appears that Francis Bacon was both an alchemist and natural philosopher. I would have said we where both right until you threw in your weird conspiracy theory. However, this is irrelevant and I know you will never yield so you can believe whatever you want to believe. Also, there where several people who contributed to the idea of modern empiricism, including Galileo and Locke.
Ok, so sure if you want to admit that Icke is saying that reality is subjective in the most extreme sense, then that means that no one but me exists. Your all illusions in my head. But you are all reality because that which is in my head is reality....you know, assuming i'm not hooked up to a matrix thing.
I don't need to. However it is true that when a poet calls creativity magic, they are simply meaning it is truly wondrous.
But if you think reality is subjective like Icke seems to think, then there are no more patterns than what you impose on the world.
A subjective reality would be more accurate to say in your own reality because you can't really conclude that we are all experiencing the same reality. Therefore saying this reality is using tools that an objectivist uses and applying it in a subjective reality. That is the error I pointed out earlier popping up again.
Ok, sure. Whatever you want to believe. Because whatever you believe is the case and is true.....in your reality.
But the documentary shows how bizzare science is at its cutting edge which helps to put ickes comments into perspective[/QUOTE]
muir
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I don't think kaku will deviate from the NWO script publically no
What is said behind closed doors particularly within the inner order is another matter
Aleister Crowley wrote a piece describing how reality works...annoyingly i can't remember where i read it or i'd quote it here..but that gives an occult insight into it. When you consider that many powerful people are occultists then it gives insight into how some of them percevie our reality
if you watch that documentary then you will learn that science is constantly saying 'ok thats cool let's go with that' and then later changing their mind or tweaking things
It's a stretch to say they have 'proven' the nature of our reality...they have theories
But here's a thought....if as Icke says we are all one consciousness then those explorations of reality by scientists and others might actually be consciousness creating reality as it goes along lol
He's not saying they are all exactly the same thing in every manifestation
It's a bit like the hindu gods....they are all incarnations of the same underlying thing
Well that's where a level of amnesia enters into it
If we are the divine creator (or manifestations thereof) and want to have experiences then we have to have that amnesia
What all the spiritual teachers are saying though is that we can connect to a greater reality through various peak experiences. What icke is saying is that the control system wants to stop you and everyone else from having those transcendent experiences which is why they pull you down into the 5 sense world
Well i'm not going to yeild when i'm right no....science was born out of the occult full stop
look into the 'invisible college' for more insight into that and also the role of the 'hermetic sciences'
I'll post more about his theory as i delve deeper into it
But it's more a case of you and me are actually the same consciousness but that we are different points of attention
It's really quite a beautiful concept because if the people of the world all believed this they would no longer wage war on each other. the control system therefore MUST combat this kind of thinking to maintain its war economy
So for example Alan watts did a good talk on how the bible was mistranslated. Jesus did not say he was 'the' son of God he said he was 'a' son of God the implication being that we are all the children of God (manifestations of it)
The Roman el-ite had to change that though because they needed people to believe that the divine order was a monarchy NOT a democracy lol
So they changed it to make God a king sitting on his heavenly throne and Jesus as his prince on earth (replaced by the Pope). This justified them then having monarchies on earth (centralised power) because they claimed they were simply reflecting the divine order of the heavens on earth and through this they claimed a 'divine right to rule'
a seemingly small typo with MASSIVE consequences for how our societies were structured
So obviously the concept that we are all expressions of infinate consciousness is extremely revolutionary because it challenges the idea that we should all be subservaint to the ruling class....it says they are no more important than us and then the meek can inherit the earth
No they aren't. I've read a lot of the romantic poets and they are saying that their inspiration comes from a transcendent place...a divine source. Keats called this a 'spark'. Blake spoke about 'cleansing the doors of perception'....the romantics were DEEPLY spiritual
One of their favourite motifs is the eolian harp which is a kind of instrument that you put outside your house. As the wind blows through the strings it creates its own music. This is used by them as a metaphor for us being animated by consciousness
Well this is something i am still digging into and i can't give a satisfactory answer to it at the moment
Obviously as someone who is interested in activism and changing the world i am interested in methods to do that
Socialists talk about creating the right 'consciousness' for change eg 'revolutionary consciousness'
For example with the economic problems we are seeing around the world we are seeing more and more people protesting and agitating as their mood changes.....the political environment is becoming more fertile in terms of change because consciousness is shifting
So does reality change like the 100th monkey idea of if enough people shift then reality changes or is it more subtle than that?
I think we could both agree that how we think and feel about things affects how we behave and how we behave then affects the shape of our world. So it makes sense that there is a 'war over consciousness' as people try to win over peoples hearts and minds to their visions for the world
Well what magicians are saying is that how you perceive reality is dependent on YOUR programming/conditioning
For example a muslim from Indonesia might not view the world the same way that an atheist from New York might
Part of the spiritual process is recogninging the layers of conditioning that have been placed on us and how they influence us
So lets say that you were in control of a tribe of people and wanted to be strong. You could create a flag for that tribe and a set of customs and a religion. You would give your God a certain name and you could claim that your people were Gods chosen people. Now this is fine as long as your tribe don't meet any other tribes lol
But as soon as you do you will find people with different clothes, music, Gods, laguage etc and this can create tensions because you can't have 2 groups of people both being Gods chosen people!
So writers like George Frazer and Joseph Campbell have looked at these cultural differences that seperate groups of humans but they also bring positive messages that underlying these surface differences we are all the same. Indeed Jung speaks about humanity sharing a collective unconscious...it's just a case of poeple meeting on that common ground instead of focusing on the surface differences (unformtunately many people cling often violently to those surface differences which then keeps humanity divided and often in conflict)
So spirituality imo is about recognising that common humanity and that all the layers of conditioning eg nationality, culture, language, religion and so on are really just forms of software that are programmed into people. Once you know this you can become more tolerant of people and accept why they are the way they are and even go to their country and enjoy the flavour of their culture for example going to japan and enjoying their tea and customs and sushi and music and theatre etc
The problem comes when the software makes the people antagonistic towards other groups of people. A prime example would be software programmes that tell people that they are superior to others and have a right to rule them for example that they are Gods chosen people and have a right to rule over all of creation....that's going to cause problems
You mean in my perception of reality
What you would call 'objective reality' Icke is saying is a frequency that you and me as manifestations of the same consciousness are tuned into to experience
Just as the qabalistic magicians talk about a realm of infinate possibility so to does Icke and so too does Kaku
Concerning tuning into other frequencies and realities i'll post more as i go
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Reality is an illusion? According to who? That's what I want to know. Who is so all knowing that they know what is and is not real? Do we decide something isn't real just because one person perceives it while another doesn't?
I wouldn't say that reality is an illusion. I would say it's subjective and varying and exists too wide on a scope for any of us individually to decide what reality is.
I believe there is a fundamental, underlying "realness" that is there but everything else is built upon it layer by layer. Eventually the layers pile so high and so thick and that is where human being are. Trying to consider an onion by its skin and not for everything that makes it up.
I wouldn't say that reality is an illusion. I would say it's subjective and varying and exists too wide on a scope for any of us individually to decide what reality is.
I believe there is a fundamental, underlying "realness" that is there but everything else is built upon it layer by layer. Eventually the layers pile so high and so thick and that is where human being are. Trying to consider an onion by its skin and not for everything that makes it up.
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I am copesetic to the idea that if their is a god, that god is insane and we are all but fractures of its mind. We are the friends in its head.
Its the only way I will even consider the possibility of a magical being living in the sky these days. Wait what does this have to do with reality? Oh...thats right.
Its the only way I will even consider the possibility of a magical being living in the sky these days. Wait what does this have to do with reality? Oh...thats right.
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Only 5 senses with which to experience the most rudimentary stimuli in the known universe. The first bilogical that could sense light had a huge advantage over others that could not. And yet, the world of sound was unknown to it, as was touch...
Who knows what else is out there that we cannot fathom yet.
Who knows what else is out there that we cannot fathom yet.
dogman6126
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But this is in the process, not the end result. science is a method of objectively questioning the world around us. Since you've admitted that Icke's perspective is based on a subjective reality, then this part no longer matters
fair point, and I do agree. I don't make the claim that they have proven the nature of reality. However since science has done such a good job in past respects, then its very likely that they are the most reliable attempt in this regard.
That would be an eventual conclusion....at least I think I'm interpreting you correctly.
But frequency is simply a property of a pattern propagating through a medium. Therefore if your relating the term frequency to all things that have this tendency, the only thing they have in common is the idea of a frequency. That meaning a propagating pattern through a medium. That's like saying how equations for lattice structures can be used to describe solid states and how water will move through a pipe. Sure they share a similar fundamental idea, but that does NOT mean they are intractable. It only means they share a similar fundamental idea.
Ok, here you've like really lost me. I have not idea what to say to this.
But none of this proves the idea that we are all the same consciousness. This doesn't even say that such a group is controlling the idea as implied. This only says that IF such an idea is true, and that such a group exists, THEN this is a possible reason they might do it. This is an irrelevant idea, lol.
I don't know as much about poetry, so I'll just say that the example I gave from which this point came was not the best example.
I mean sure, I don't know. Your now working with a solipsist argument, and I can't do anything with that.
Well then this is weird. Your saying that Icke is claiming there is some thing that each of these islands of consciousness in this subjective reality are all interconnected in. But that doesn't work. If reality is subjective, then nothing can be known about reality because its all in a persons head. That would also include there would be no connection between everything that you can confirm or know. Its not objectively falsifiable. Its a pure belief. Beyond that, I would describe it as wishful thinking, but that's my own perspective.
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Have to agree that no one is close on saying what reality is. It can be said though with some assurance that whatever it is, we experience only a small part of what there is to experience. Dark matter makes up 95 percent of the known universe making us the byproduct or the flotsam of the true nature....
muir
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Well...if we are experiencing the reality subjectively then it can still be explored objectively (if we are suffering from amnesia)
Like i say there is more to post on the matter but i'll have to read into it a bit more before i can give a fuller view
Ok the point i'm making is that science comes up with hypotheses which it then tests
lets say you are a mystic and you have an altered state of consciousness experience and you then say some revelatory thing about the nature of reality because you have perceived it that way and then later scientists then build upto that description with mathematics then one got there through inductive reasoning and the other got there quicker through intuition
I was reading the white goddess recently and Graves gave an example of this when he spoke of a famous mathematician who was able to intuitively come up with answers but he then had to get his more technical collegues to check his anwers were correct using the correct mathematical procedures!
The point i'm making is that there are different ways of perceiving and different way of arriving at the same place
What Icke is saying is that everything in the universe is waveform and that this can store large amounts of information
Look at writing systems...they can vary greatly eg chinese....the incans used to use knots on a piece of string
So the universe is like a soup of information that we are decoding. The technology in which our universe is founded is very effective...it can store vast amounts of information
Nuclear power is powerful because it is splitting atoms but when you split even smaller bundles of energy the power created is even greater!
We seem to be trying to mimic nature in some ways because we recognise natures technology is very advanced
Read up on 'peak experiences'. Maslow talks about them
Also altered states of consciousness whether induced by meditiation or ingesting entheogens etc
For an academic view on the latter you could read Huxleys 'the doors of perception' where Huxley (an academic) takes LSD and describes his experience
This topic is vast...too much to cover here....these two things were just the first 2 that popped into my head
But we are talking about the ethereal....the ineffable....our intuitive sense of things...seeing with the third eye
No....this is the interesting thing about this 'conspiracy' stuff...it operates on multiple levels
So you could keep it on a very academic level and you could read information by historians for example if you wanted to look into the rothschilds you could read the work of the historian Niall ferguson who the family permitted access to to their letters (except those that were withheld!)
And through that process you can understand a certain amount of whats going on. You could use the journalists maxim of 'follow the money' which was the famous bit of advice that the insider government contact codenamed 'deep throat' gave to the two journalists woodward and bernstein before they then blew the lid off Watergate
By following the money you can then understand the conspiracy on an even deeper level
However once you know who is doing what you are still left with questions like: ''why are they doing it?''
So if you come to the conclusion that there are some poeple who are pathologically seeking power and wealth then you can still ask ''but why are they like that?''
Then to explore that you have to leave our tangible world and delve into the human mind. Sure the investigation can still carry on in the physical world with things like brain scans and establishing if certain people have underactive limbic systems and so on but thats the brain whereas the human mind is such that there are dimensions that are non chemical
This is what jung and Joseph cambell and people are talking about eg symbols
So before you know it an exploration into who runs the banking system leads to reading about symbols and psychology and magick and the occult and all sorts of stuff!
The deeper down the rabbit hole you go the weirder it gets!
But anyway....concerning what you are saying....the human body uses electricity to pass signals around the body. We know that certain things can disrupt that. for example there are high rates of lukemia in people living near power lines
Also the mainstream media has advised parents not to talk too long on mobile phones and to stop children from using them (their skulls are thinner) because the RF frequency used is harmful to us
So certain things are harmful to us and can impact us in unseen ways
if the authorities want to suppress people there are ways in which they can affect us through these invisible means
Some experts spoke to a government panel in the UK trying to get them to stop the roll out of 'smart' meters because of the wifi RF frequency dangers of installing them in homes
We have infused our environment with RF frequency and very few people are even questioning if thats a good idea, but you can hear neuroscientists online expressing concerns
Hmmm i'm not sure Icke is saying no one elses mind exists i think he is saying that we are all from the same source...which i think is something different..
he's not saying we are islands of consciousness...he is saying we are the same consciousness
All each of us are is a focus of attention...of awareness
Spiritual teachers talk about quietening the mind to get to that 'i am' awareness...not in the past or future but just in the present as a simple awareness
[video=youtube;BA8tDzK_kPI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA8tDzK_kPI[/video]
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