Reality is Perception

I will not strategically pick apart your flaws, as we all have them.

I will state without doubt one's understanding of God is greater than another's after one has touched God. Those that stand at a distance; those that do not seek the truth and being one with Christ cannot perceive, but will rather argue against Him. What God has given me could not be understood by those not seeking the wisdom of God.

I compare those wishing to question the Bible as those having not touched a very hot iron as a youth for understanding. I use that analogy as an invitation rather than something negative toward anyone.
 
Cedar said:
"You will not know the truth until you die just as you did not know the truth of the heat of an iron until you touched it."

Disagree. You can know the truth of something without personal experience. It is a fallacy to say we can't know something is true unless we experience it ourselves. Yes, we are more likely to believe it is real or exists if we personally observe or experience it, but we can also be told about a reality. But it is still a choice to believe, accept, or reject what we are told. Our disbelief or unbelief doesn't make that reality untrue. Just as people discover things using unique and rare abilities and are able to explain or reveal the workings of the world in intricate ways, so can we learn about things we have no ability to learn on our own. Doesn't make these discoveries any less true. You can still choose to believe something different than the truth or reality. But it doesn't negate the existence of the reality. Just as we think and reason yet there is no explanation in our fleshly bodies to explain our ability to think or reason and feel. The physical body can only explain itself but can it justify the spirit or essence of the self? How can you tell someone the self is unique, real or exists when it's constructed the same as everyone else?
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True, but can we truly know about what happens after we die until we die? I mean yes we know we die without it ever happening, we know this to be true but we don't know the full truth of what it means to die.
 
just me said:
I will not strategically pick apart your flaws, as we all have them.

I will state without doubt one's understanding of God is greater than another's after one has touched God. Those that stand at a distance; those that do not seek the truth and being one with Christ cannot perceive, but will rather argue against Him. What God has given me could not be understood by those not seeking the wisdom of God.

I compare those wishing to question the Bible as those having not touched a very hot iron as a youth for understanding. I use that analogy as an invitation rather than something negative toward anyone.
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Again, your reality but not the one "truth" or "reality". I am not saying you are wrong by any means but just because you can say you have an understanding of God and Jesus does not make it reality or truth for all. Your perception is your own and you are welcome to it but it does not make it truth. I didn't start this to have it turn into a debate about religion but I can see how it ties into it. You are not the first and will not be the last to say that their God and their Savor gives them understanding that other's can never have. I do not doubt that this is true or else why would millions throughout history and in thousands of different religions claim the same thing? There is a reality to it, a truth to it but what that is, I don't think is answered in one religion, idea or belief.
Your perception is that the bible and Christianity is true and reality. I cannot and will not even attempt to convince you otherwise because again perception is reality or maybe better said, reality is perception.
 
I disagree with some of the major points in your argument.

There is in fact some truths that will stand as they are, no matter how we perceive them. Simply because these are the objective truths or the facts.

jimtaylor said:
Simply put, I was asking why we decided 2+2=4 when we could have easily decided 1+1=6, if one really means three objects.
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In Mathematics, 1, 2,..., n are only arbitrary symbols. Hence, if 1 will denote the quantity of three, instead of 3, then 1+1=6. This isn't really a matter of perception changing reality. 1+1=2 will always be true with respect to the values these symbols are representing. Also, one plus one equals two will also be true. Note that 1 and one are technically different symbols but we deem them to be the same because we know that they represent the same thing.

But I believe it is true for some cases that our realities depend on our perceptions. BUT the realities here are not the objective truths but the subjective ones. By that I mean it is not reality in general but "reality" for an individual only. That is some "truths" for us are limited by the subjectivity of our perceptions. For example, if you pass by a person and you thought he winked at you because that's how you perceived the situation, when in fact he did not at all.

Hence, my point is, the subjectivity of our perception, which is affected by our limitations, is what alters some "realities" for us. Nonetheless, some truths will stand true no matter how we perceive them.
 
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If I may add something, I think throughout history there have been few people in any given religion that earnestly seek "The Truth". Yes, those that give it years of study and prayer will understand things others do not. I also think specific truths will be revealed to those seeking specific truths.

I learned back in the eighties: something revealed to me may possibly be for me and not for others. Others may never understand what I partially now understand and must research even further through this "revelation" of sorts.
I may feel confused at first, and may see more truth to it twenty years later. Should I try and share it with others, it may get burned or scorned. I may be made fun of. One of my mentors explained it may have been for me alone.

When someone comes speaking truth, it is thus easily understood how people might reject what they see and what they hear. I will try to refrain from the spiritual words in your thread if possible.
 
just me said:
If I may add something, I think throughout history there have been few people in any given religion that earnestly seek "The Truth". Yes, those that give it years of study and prayer will understand things others do not. I also think specific truths will be revealed to those seeking specific truths.

I learned back in the eighties: something revealed to me may possibly be for me and not for others. Others may never understand what I partially now understand and must research even further through this "revelation" of sorts.
I may feel confused at first, and may see more truth to it twenty years later. Should I try and share it with others, it may get burned or scorned. I may be made fun of. One of my mentors explained it may have been for me alone.

When someone comes speaking truth, it is thus easily understood how people might reject what they see and what they hear. I will try to refrain from the spiritual words in your thread if possible.
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You have 1 major flaw in your theory of understanding. That anyone who spends time studying this god crap comes away believing. Whereas for many, the more you learn/study it the less you believe because it just seems frickin nuts.
 
Billy said:
You have 1 major flaw in your theory of understanding. That anyone who spends time studying this god crap comes away believing. Whereas for many, the more you learn/study it the less you believe because it just seems frickin nuts.
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It is not a theory. It is not what you call it. It is certainly not for everyone, though it is offered to everyone.


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[TD="width: 99%"] << Matthew 25 >>
King James Version[/TD]
[TD="width: 1%"] [/TD]
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so ; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
[/TD]
 
just me said:
It is not a theory. It is not what you call it. It is certainly not for everyone, though it is offered to everyone.


[TD="class: btext, colspan: 2"]
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<< Matthew 25 >>
King James Version

[TD="width: 1%"][/TD]
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so ; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. [/TD]
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Again, you are assuming that anyone who studies the bible or christianity enough will come away as a believer, you are wrong.
 
Kant would say that you're not differentiating between a priori and a posteriori judgments.

You don't really 'perceive' mathematics-- you understand the process and then synthesize your own knowledge to understand the form of your experience... whereas dismissing a homeless man as worthless is an empirical judgment made based on the content of your experience (what you perceive)… and not a very good one, because you're judging him with a closed mind and failing to consider missing pieces of the puzzle.

I think someone already pointed out the difference between cognition and perception but I just wanted to reiterate that.
 
just me said:
If I may add something, I think throughout history there have been few people in any given religion that earnestly seek "The Truth". Yes, those that give it years of study and prayer will understand things others do not. I also think specific truths will be revealed to those seeking specific truths.

I learned back in the eighties: something revealed to me may possibly be for me and not for others. Others may never understand what I partially now understand and must research even further through this "revelation" of sorts.
I may feel confused at first, and may see more truth to it twenty years later. Should I try and share it with others, it may get burned or scorned. I may be made fun of. One of my mentors explained it may have been for me alone.

When someone comes speaking truth, it is thus easily understood how people might reject what they see and what they hear. I will try to refrain from the spiritual words in your thread if possible.
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I might also add another thing. Now correct me if I am wrong because I am not always right and there are so many sources, I cannot read them all. Wasn’t the Old Testament written in Hebrew and Aramaic? Now throughout the years it was translated from those original languages into Latin as Christianity became the predominant religion of the late Roman Empire. Then from their as we all know it was translated into English. Now forgive me for sounding rude but this sounds like a very large and drawn out version of the telephone game you play in grade school.

I can almost guarantee that through history at some point when being translated into a new language and when bits and pieces have been destroyed by other religious factions, over zealous leaders, etc… that the Bible has been tarnished, meaning it has not stayed exactly the same. Because some monk who was translating it from Latin to English or from Hebrew/Aramaic to Latin knew there is not always a perfect translation so he had to make a judgment call and go with what he or a council thought was the best translation of the text. Again, perception rears its ugly little head.

So the Bible as we know it today is not of God’s creation or words but of individuals perceptions of various teachings and ideals. I am sorry but I cannot look at it as any more than a book of philosophy because it is not untarnished, without fault, error or human bias and greed. Even if I believed in God I could not and would not follow the Bible because it is again just various individuals perception and understanding of what they experienced. It is not one absolute or resolute truth, essentially stating these are the laws of the Universe. It tries to but that is again an individual through their perception of the world dictating how others should live.

This whole argument is of course pointless as almost any debate about religion is but it is fun to discuss none the less. This is just my first issue with the Bible. The next is from my understanding that it was not Jesus who wrote the New Testament but instead followers who wrote their perception and understanding of Jesus’s teachings just as we are debating them now. The various churches of Christianity have ever since that point picked whatever writings matched their ideals best to make up their Bible.

Maybe it is just me but I am not the type that looks at each religion and thinks that they are wrong. I don’t look at them and think, “ohh that is stupid, I am right and only my belief, religion, faith, etc.. is right.” I look at them all and I think there is a bit of truth and understanding to be gained from them all. I do not see why an individual should have to identify with one religion to reach enlightenment, understanding or anything of the sorts because it seems rather short sighted to me to be that way. It would be like saying you hate Sushi without ever actually trying it or experiencing it or saying physics is wrong because you do not understand it.

Like I said, I did not start this discussion to say whether something is good or bad but instead merely to discern the difference between reality and perception and if there is a difference. There have been a lot of great responses and I will think on them all. Now if I never reach a greater understanding because I do not follow the Bible, then I can live with that. I think I will find plenty enough of understanding, wisdom and experience by studying anything and everything else I possibly can. Therefore you can contribute to the conversation however you wish, spiritual or not but just like I expected to be challenged for my statement, expect to be challenged in your beliefs.
 
Can get hairy, for certain. I prefer to think it's what ahead.

This Brautigan passage comes to mind in the context of reality. Can't explain why at the moment.

“You crossed the border into Mexico,” he said. “You rode your horse into a small town. The people knew who you were and they were afraid of you. They knew you had killed many men with that gun you wore at your side. The town itself was so small that it didn’t have a priest.

“When the rurales saw you, they left the town. Tough as they were, they did not want to have anything to do with you. The rurales left.

“You became the most powerful man in town. You were seduced by a thirteen-year-old girl, and you and she lived together in an adobe hut, and practically all you did was make love.

“She was slender and had long dark hair. You made love standing, sitting, lying on the dirt floor with pigs and chickens around you. The walls, the floor and even the roof of the hut were coated with your sperm and her come.

“You slept on the floor at night and used your sperm for a pillow and her come for a blanket.

“The people in the town were so afraid of you that they could do nothing.

“After a while she started going around town without any clothes on, and the people of the town said that it was not a good thing, and when you started going around without any clothes, and when both of you began making love on the back of your horse in the middle of the zocalo, the people of the town became so afraid that they abandoned the town. It’s been abandoned ever since."
 
In the Bible, the known will of God is final for man as a standard of truth, not as arbitrary, but as expressive of God's nature. God's nature is all-comprehensive of fact and goodness, and so is, all and in all, the source, support and objective of all concrete being. The will of God thus reveals, persuades to and achieves the ideals and ends of complete existence. The term "truth" is sometimes, therefore, nearly equivalent to the revealed will of God. copied

The Will of God to me is a manifestation of the truth(phanerosis). I see in His Word the fall of man. I see the law. I see the part of the law that is controlled in the mind, slaying me for my lustful thoughts. I see Jesus bringing himself to take the place of blood sacrifices. I see Him entering the Holy of Holies once forever to rid us of remembrance of sins over and over every year. I see how I can lay down and die peacefully. I see how I become part of God's will.

These are but a few of the many truths in the Bible. As they have become translated many times over and there are things lost in translation, I see it important to study the Greek and Hebrew writings for self-satisfaction. Things have become apparent(phaneros) to me.

I also see the moral decay of our world. I see religious writings under attack every day with direct assaults and simple innuendos. My faith is not being tested, nor is my right to believe the way I wish being questioned. Rather, the way other people believe is being questioned, and their right to believe the way they do. Many people will not sit quietly until they have gone to every extreme they can think of to put down religious writings and beliefs. Is this the only way they can justify themselves? If religious texts have put down the way one lives, maybe there is a reason. If one cannot cope with it, why not attack it?


I grow tired of the banter. I would try and help someone with a serious mindset, but I will not give my pearls to those seeking nothing but self satisfaction destroying words that have helped many thousands of people learn to live more abundantly. Forgive me if I grow tired. The only thing any of this has accomplished(over years here), for me, is to take me back into the studies I so loved many years ago. I thank whomever for that, however many it might have been. I seek rest, not confrontation. Yet, it is difficult to sit on my hands and read some of the things I read here and there without at least saying something. I am not fighting.
 
What does the Bible have to do with the topic of this thread?
I don't think that anyone has perceived Jesus, or God, or the events of the Bible.
'Moral decay' is an opinion-- it's you interpreting what you perceive, not what you're actually perceiving.
 
There are different types of reality.

'Reality' is almost uni-vocal with 'existence.' Different things exist in different ways and so there are different realities.

For example: Trees exist materially, but they can also be said to exist conceptually in an observer. These are two very different types of tree-existence.

You also have the difference between actual existence, possible existence, potential existence and impossible existence, to name but a few. Reality seems to refer principally to actual existence - but for the other forms of existence you can only say they are real in a qualified way:

Possible: things may have possibly exist, or may in future exist as real.
Potential: This tree seed has the potential to be a tree.
Impossible: A square circle is really impossible.
 
Reality is whatever the Anunnaki tell us!


[MENTION=680]just me[/MENTION] Try not to get too frustrated. The guy is 22. Those are pretty normal posts and thoughts for someone in their early 20s. Plus, you'll go crazy on forums if you think you gotta correct every misconception you read about religion and the bible. Lol. Try to get to the point where you roll your eyes and go make some spaghetti. ;)
 
if one perceives truth, truth is reality

if one does not perceive truth, they do not perceive truth in reality

who is perceiving?

it is safe to assume life is existing beyond our perception
we are in reality but we are not the entire reality

if we believe reality is all we perceive then we may indeed become limited by our own perception
 
What we call the number of objects is mostly irrelevant. So long as people agree on what to call it

If 1 + 1 + 6 like you suggested then 1 wouldn't mean 1. It would mean 3. What difference does it make what picture we use to represent 1 or 3 or what sounds we make when we refer to them. So long as everyone agrees that 1 is 1 and 3 is 3.

Someone suggested a picture and a sound for 1. Others agreed to use this system. It caught on

Whats your point?
 
Everyone has there own version of reality. We exist in our own little bubbles of belief and delusion

If I think that god exists that doesn't make it so. It just means that I will believe it

Perception is not objective reality

Your perception is your subjective reality

My perception is my subjective reality

If a large enough group of people believe something then quite often, for all intents and purposes it becomes true. Take money for example. You only reason you can buy food with it is because everyone agrees that it is worth something. If everyone disagreed then you woudn't be able to buy food with it

There is objective reality. Maths is a perfect example. 1 is still 1 no matter what we decide to call it. We could call 1 Phil if we wanted. Then Phil + Phil would equal 2. That doesn't change the number of objects

There is subjective reality. Music for example. The only measure of whether or not a song is good is whether or not you think it is good. Nobody can tell you you're wrong. You are correct about how good you think it is. This is indisputable

Then there is the cross over. The point at which a large enough number of people believe in a subjective opinion. At this point many ignorant people believe it becomes objective reality and you will be told you're stupid if you disagree. They are the stupid ones for not realising their error

Of course, if you want to be a succesful, happy, and well liked individual you kind of have to let them get away with some of these and pretend to agree. Political correctness for example. It isn't racist to say you don't like turbans but you may be sacked for it.

In case you disagree that this isn't racist I will simply say I don't like Stetsons. Think about it
 
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