Relativism, absolute truth and alike.

[MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION]

But, but... 'absolutes'? 'Relative'? Hmmm. Yes, the coordinates in a television are absolute to the "point zero" of the screen, but if you move the whole television you have moved that point, and the whole reference system along with it. Of this I'm sure you're aware of. So it's called an 'absolute' in the system of the television coordinates, but a all the coordinates on the screen are relative to the 'point zero' in the system of the... lets say the room the television stands in. Thus are the coordinates both absolute and relative depending on from wich perspectiv and reference system you have chosen. Right?

Let's say there is an absolute system, that stands above all other. Then surely all other systems most be relative to this absolute system - if it's "the one system" - and (ironicly) giving the universe an absolute truth... that's relative. Wierd, but logical, don't you think?

EDIT: I just reliazed that my 'argument' may not be as strong... I remember Gödel. Perhaps relativism is the thing after all... intriguing!


If there's an absolute that is above all else then it is only purely absolute because there's nothing bigger, and not because of any special quality of being absolute.

A rock that is too heavy to move is only immovable because nothing can move it. That has more to do with the surroundings of the rock than the rock itself. If the rock could be moved even hypothetically then it is not truly immovable.
 
[MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION], I was going to give you a "tumbs up", but pressed the wrong button

You have a good point right there!
 
Probably in no terms that come from a purely logical standpoint, there is a limit to my views and then I stand on what bit of faith I have found from time to time.
Mostly personal experience both as a medical worker and incidents that have happened throughout my life that have lead me to believe that there is so much more to this world than meets the eye.
And lastly, I feel it intrinsically…that there is a mind/brain dualism.

I never answered this, did I....I'm really sorry.

Being a "meat computer" isn't that big of a problem if it is strictly in the sense that we exist within the causal workings and physical parts of the brain. We just need to establish that the kind of things we talk about when we talk about as important to us can be entirely grounded in this context. We need to account for perceptions, sensations, awareness, intentions, reasons, whatever other psychological states, and free will.


[MENTION=12103]Erlian[/MENTION]
Lol, I have looked into that paper before, but it has been a while. As for the Pinker quote, he has misrepresented free will. Free will is not uncaused willing. While that was similar to Descartes' view, it isn't a modern view.


Speaking of it, is there a nessecity to have "created it yourself" for it to be a relative truth, or can you create an abolute yourself? Is there a relative truth that hasn't been created by us humans? I don't know if my thoughts make sense.

This is an excellent question dude. A+ for sure. This is a question that leads one to the ethical/metaethical view called Constructivism or Constitutivism (different name by author, but same idea really). Korsgaard is the one I'm most familiar with here, and she is a genius. Btw, she did her undergrad philosophy degree at my university, just saying......>_>
Of course that was like 30 years ago..... :(
A quick blurb about this view is that morality is constituted by us in the sense that we have agency, a self, and action. Within these features there is entailment of evaluative facts, and these facts are morality. I won't get into it a bunch here cause it is off topic, but I can explain it some time if you want ;).



That's what it's called. It's called absolute because the 'reference' is always from a zero point, and the zero point of the screen never moves. The zero point on a screen is absolute and when you factor in the aspect ratio, you always know where a coordinate falls on a given screen. It's never different. That is why it is absolute.

It'd be relative if it were say arbitrary position x+5 y+7. For example if you right click in a browser you get a little popup next to the pointer - that's a relative coordinate because it is next to the pointer and the pointer can move. Absolute coordinates never move relative to their immediate surroundings - their 'universe'. What happens though if you move the universe?


A thing can only be absolute by virtue of not being immediately relative. Which means a thing might be absolute, but not absolutely. Things can happen to make it relative.


We can make absolutes, relatively.

Sprinkles, this is begging the question. You have already framed the question of your absolute system within a relative frame! Of course it will be relative, lol. The absolute can only exist, therefore, within the relative frame. Any question outside of the frame will be begging the question, and so a fallacy. You can question the absolutism with the game (to reference game formalism, for it address this kind of idea), but to question outside the game is utter nonsense (to the question). Basically, it doesn't apply.
Here's the quick google definition of absolutism:
the acceptance of or belief in absolute principles in political, philosophical, ethical, or theological matters.
It says absolute principles in X. You can't question the absolute principles that are in X, outside of X. That's like playing a game of checkers, and trying to figure out how to move piece P[SUB]3[/SUB] vertically or horizontally any number of spaces (like a rook). It would be nonsense.

If there's an absolute that is above all else then it is only purely absolute because there's nothing bigger, and not because of any special quality of being absolute.

A rock that is too heavy to move is only immovable because nothing can move it. That has more to do with the surroundings of the rock than the rock itself. If the rock could be moved even hypothetically then it is not truly immovable.

You can have logically entailed absolutes. For example, tautologies. A bachelor is an unmarried male. Other definitions. Arguably, chemical compositions (water is H[SUB]2[/SUB]O). Deductive truths are also the kinds of entailments that can give us what we are looking for. In response you might say that logic only works "because there is nothing over and above it", but this is almost nonsense. You can't just reframe the question like that, because this is a red herring. We are talking about absolutism within rationality. You could be an extreme skeptic and say why make that jump to rationality, but then you are departing all rational discourse, and reject the tautology of logical entailment. This is a radical step.

Edit: I also think this is what [MENTION=13285]Oscillation[/MENTION] was getting at :)
 
[MENTION=11455]dogman6126[/MENTION]
I have no idea what you're talking about. Absolute simply means in relation to nothing else, and relative simply means in relation to something else. I don't know what you're talking about with this "question outside the frame."

Just consider relative vs. absolute velocities if you're still confused. Objects can have both. For example even though we're hurtling through space with extreme absolute velocity, you cannot feel it because you have a relative velocity of near zero.

Plus this thread is kind of old.
 
[MENTION=11455]dogman6126[/MENTION]

That's not entirely correct. Logic, as the study of reasoning, is recursive, i.e. we're reasoning about reasoning. We create a reference frame as we speak about a frame within a frame, etc...

Tarski's undefinability theorem, stated and proved by Alfred Tarski in 1936, is an important limitative result in mathematical logic, the foundations of mathematics, and in formal semantics. Informally, the theorem states that arithmetical truth cannot be defined in arithmetic.

The theorem applies more generally to any sufficiently strong formal system, showing that truth in the standard model of the system cannot be defined within the system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarski's_undefinability_theorem
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/tarski-truth/
 
[MENTION=11455]dogman6126[/MENTION]
I have no idea what you're talking about. Absolute simply means in relation to nothing else, and relative simply means in relation to something else. I don't know what you're talking about with this "question outside the frame."

Just consider relative vs. absolute velocities if you're still confused. Objects can have both. For example even though we're hurtling through space with extreme absolute velocity, you cannot feel it because you have a relative velocity of near zero.

Plus this thread is kind of old.

Remember this thread is about relativism, and its opposite, absolutivism. What I was getting at is that when talking about moral absolutes, they exist within the game of logic (at least that's what metaethicists hope for). By describing absolutes the way you did, you are actually looking at the question from outside the game, which is why you get the result you did. However, with the game of logic and morality, you have to look at it from within the game (because we are playing the game). So, the absolute does exist, and we can talk about it. It's not a weird feature that your talking about is what I mean.

[MENTION=11455]dogman6126[/MENTION]

That's not entirely correct. Logic, as the study of reasoning, is recursive, i.e. we're reasoning about reasoning. We create a reference frame as we speak about a frame within a frame, etc...



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarski's_undefinability_theorem
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/tarski-truth/

Honestly, I've not done Tarski yet, but I've heard good things about him. However, lacking the context, I'm not sure how to interpret your quote. If you could say more that would be awesome.
 
Remember this thread is about relativism, and its opposite, absolutivism. What I was getting at is that when talking about moral absolutes, they exist within the game of logic (at least that's what metaethicists hope for). By describing absolutes the way you did, you are actually looking at the question from outside the game, which is why you get the result you did. However, with the game of logic and morality, you have to look at it from within the game (because we are playing the game). So, the absolute does exist, and we can talk about it. It's not a weird feature that your talking about is what I mean.

I don't think I described it as particularly weird....
 
[MENTION=11455]dogman6126[/MENTION]

I don't think [MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION] was necessarily saying anything contradictory to you, just pointing out that absolute truth only exists within the context that establishes it as absolute (circular) and by changing your frame of reference it may no longer be absolute. The problem comes when you declare that we cannot question it from outside the frame of reference (itself a meta-proposition). By not questioning it, we cannot evaluate the utility of any system. Why is mathematics so useful? What causes it to be so profoundly precise? Why not a different, possibly less precise system? What makes it better than any other system? Playing the game is not a valid justification of the system, but rather a provisional acceptance of the system.

Accepting the axioms of any system is already begging the question, ie it's circular reasoning. You are forced to accept the axioms if you wish to evaluate the results.

In mathematics, the term axiom is used in two related but distinguishable senses: "logical axioms" and "non-logical axioms". Logical axioms are usually statements that are taken to be true within the system of logic they define (e.g., (A and B) implies A), while non-logical axioms (e.g., a + b = b + a) are actually substantive assertions about the elements of the domain of a specific mathematical theory (such as arithmetic). When used in the latter sense, "axiom," "postulate", and "assumption" may be used interchangeably. In general, a non-logical axiom is not a self-evident truth, but rather a formal logical expression used in deduction to build a mathematical theory. As modern mathematics admits multiple, equally "true" systems of logic, precisely the same thing must be said for logical axioms - they both define and are specific to the particular system of logic that is being invoked. To axiomatize a system of knowledge is to show that its claims can be derived from a small, well-understood set of sentences (the axioms). There are typically multiple ways to axiomatize a given mathematical domain.

In both senses, an axiom is any mathematical statement that serves as a starting point from which other statements are logically derived. Within the system they define, axioms (unless redundant) cannot be derived by principles of deduction, nor are they demonstrable by mathematical proofs, simply because they are starting points; there is nothing else from which they logically follow otherwise they would be classified as theorems. However, an axiom in one system may be a theorem in another, and vice versa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom

Limiting a formal system to being non-recursive also limits its expressive power and makes it less useful. The problem by allowing it though allows for paradoxical statements such as "This statement is false."

[video=youtube;xjT6x8yZvpY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjT6x8yZvpY[/video]

Truth as a semantic notion refers to other statements. We don't say, "That tree is true," rather we say, "That statement is true." Truth is a meta-proposition about other statements that is either outside the system it refers to or is part of a recursive system that is either inconsistent or incomplete.
 
Any formal system expressive enough to refer to itself is either circular in justification (It's true because it's true.), inconsistent (It's true because it's false.), or incomplete (It's truth is unknowable.)

Completeness being for every statement of the language of a system either the statement or its negation can be derived. (Law of Mutual Exclusion)
Consistency being that a statement and it's negation are not both derivable. (Law of Non-Contradiction)

This is why it's not possible to not refer 'outside' of any system.

[video=youtube;8v-jN3_CQ0A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v-jN3_CQ0A[/video]
 
[MENTION=4822]Matt3737[/MENTION]

Yeah. It's like how in theory there is no absolute velocity because we've found no absolute frame of reference to measure velocity. The closest thing we have is cosmic background radiation but even that isn't a perfectly absolute frame. It's just probably as close as we can get to one right now.
 
[MENTION=11455]dogman6126[/MENTION]

I don't think [MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION] was necessarily saying anything contradictory to you, just pointing out that absolute truth only exists within the context that establishes it as absolute (circular) and by changing your frame of reference it may no longer be absolute. The problem comes when you declare that we cannot question it from outside the frame of reference (itself a meta-proposition). By not questioning it, we cannot evaluate the utility of any system. Why is mathematics so useful? What causes it to be so profoundly precise? Why not a different, possibly less precise system? What makes it better than any other system? Playing the game is not a valid justification of the system, but rather a provisional acceptance of the system.
This is getting interesting....
I do want to clarify that the analogy of the television screen coordinate system, as applied to moral relativism/absolutism, if it were to support relativism (as I probably mistakenly assumed) is missaplied. If we wanted to question morality in this way, which is to say that we can "move the television" (change some necessary feature of our system that is not in the system) and it becomes relative, and if one grants some assumptions I am making with morality (that I can defend, but will only call assumptions here), then the question is nonsense. Now I might have made a wrong jump, and perhaps sprinkles was making a point that wasn't supposed to be applied to the part about moral absolutism. If so then sorry, lol.

As for the part I bolded (and its following conclusions), I don't this is true, but only because I don't think you can question it in this way. I think it is incoherent to question moral entailments from outside a moral system (because you loose the structure of the moral entailments). What we are questioning (I think. Correct me if I'm wrong please) is the moral entailments (general moral truths) rather than the moral system itself. So, the questioning is nonsense outside of the moral system. Now, the moral system CAN be questioned outside its system (for its utility, etc. as you described). That is where things like Godels incompleteness theorems, and these Tarski points you are bringing in apply I think. But I still don't know about Tarski.


Accepting the axioms of any system is already begging the question, ie it's circular reasoning. You are forced to accept the axioms if you wish to evaluate the results.
You know, I'm actually starting to wonder about this. I mean, yes it is certainly circular reasoning, but I think it is also necessary and reasonable. So, I'm not convinced it is the same kind of fallacy. I wonder if, in questioning the system's results in a coherent way, we enter the question presupposing the axioms, and so it is not exactly circular reasoning. I don't know, I need to think about that.


Limiting a formal system to being non-recursive also limits its expressive power and makes it less useful. The problem by allowing it though allows for paradoxical statements such as "This statement is false."

[video=youtube;xjT6x8yZvpY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjT6x8yZvpY[/video]

Truth as a semantic notion refers to other statements. We don't say, "That tree is true," rather we say, "That statement is true." Truth is a meta-proposition about other statements that is either outside the system it refers to or is part of a recursive system that is either inconsistent or incomplete.

I agree with this, and am not sure if I claimed to be doing this. I think moral judgments are, in some sense, recursive (either in rule or in application, but I think in application). I also think that morality, like mathematics will be incomplete rather than inconsistent, but I believe Korsgaard thinks it can be inconsistent.

Any formal system expressive enough to refer to itself is either circular in justification (It's true because it's true.), inconsistent (It's true because it's false.), or incomplete (It's truth is unknowable.)

Completeness being for every statement of the language of a system either the statement or its negation can be derived. (Law of Mutual Exclusion)
Consistency being that a statement and it's negation are not both derivable. (Law of Non-Contradiction)

This is why it's not possible to not refer 'outside' of any system.

[video=youtube;8v-jN3_CQ0A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v-jN3_CQ0A[/video]

I recognize Gödel's incompleteness theorems. But we do have to be careful in applying them. We have to remember that some systems aren't as generalized as formal mathematics, and, in themselves, might apply constraints that either will make Gödel's theorems inapplicable, or at least give them an easy answer (like mathematics. Interesting to think that its extreme abstraction actually constrains its answer to Gödel's question). I don't know, think off the top of my head here. I think I made a mistake in this paragraph, but I don't have time to go over it again.
 
[MENTION=4822]Matt3737[/MENTION]

Yeah. It's like how in theory there is no absolute velocity because we've found no absolute frame of reference to measure velocity. The closest thing we have is cosmic background radiation but even that isn't a perfectly absolute frame. It's just probably as close as we can get to one right now.

I thought you were trying to apply this example in metaethics, and now I'm seeing that you may not have been. That would be my fault, so sorry for getting confused, lol
 
I thought you were trying to apply this example in metaethics, and now I'm seeing that you may not have been. That would be my fault, so sorry for getting confused, lol

Ethics are a prescription for behavior and can't really be true or false. Truth is about what is, and ethics are about what things should be.
 
Ethics are a prescription for behavior and can't really be true or false. Truth is about what is, and ethics are about what things should be.

That is true about some of ethics, but realist ethics are about what is entailing what should be. Therefore, they can be true or false in the sense you are talking about.
 
That is true about some of ethics, but realist ethics are about what is entailing what should be. Therefore, they can be true or false in the sense you are talking about.

We have a bazillion tests to prove who committed a crime, but none of them prove that it is wrong.
 
We have a bazillion tests to prove who committed a crime, but none of them prove that it is wrong.

That is an appeal to ignorance. A lack of a proof is not proof for the opposite. Even if we don't have a model now doesn't establish that it is not necessarily wrong. I actually think we do have a model on which to do this, and it is Korsgaard Constitutivism. I can explain this in better detail if you wish, but it must wait until after I finish my finals. That would be a long explanation. Or you can look it up.
 
That is an appeal to ignorance. A lack of a proof is not proof for the opposite. Even if we don't have a model now doesn't establish that it is not necessarily wrong. I actually think we do have a model on which to do this, and it is Korsgaard Constitutivism. I can explain this in better detail if you wish, but it must wait until after I finish my finals. That would be a long explanation. Or you can look it up.

What that is meant to illustrate is that we are so eager to connect people without a doubt to something that can be doubted.

We won't convict someone without the facts, but have no qualms predicating the need for conviction on something apparently intangible.
 
What that is meant to illustrate is that we are so eager to connect people without a doubt to something that can be doubted.

We won't convict someone without the facts, but have no qualms predicating the need for conviction on something apparently intangible.

I don't see how that connects back to the point of this thread....Must be cause I'm tired :m050:
 
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