Religious Fundamentalism as a mental illness?

[Faye]

Her suggestion is idiotic.

The author went on to say she wasn't just referring to the "obvious candidates like radical Islam," but also meant such beliefs as the idea that beating children is acceptable.

You're not going to be able to 'cure' radical Islam with drugs like it is an anxiety attack. To become a radical anything or to beat your child is a choice that you make. She is suggesting some sort of drugs or similar that would be capable of either making people impervious to what their culture deems acceptable (i.e. beating children), incapable of aggression (radical Islam), or both. I do not see how either is possible, and even if they are, I am not sure how the outcome could be good. If you ignore the bad of your culture, you'll probably ignore the good as well. As for aggression that you act on, that seems incredibly scary to me.

She claims to be protecting people from mind control, but if she succeeded and helped develop a drug that could do this, it would allow for people to have their minds controlled by external authorities.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Would you say that the American Evangelical institution is extremism? How about the modern day Catholic church? I would have to say yes. So where is the line between healthy faith and the path beyond?

It seems that you are interchanging the terms 'fundamentalism' and 'extremism'.

'Fundamentalist' is a term that several American protestant groups adopted for themselves in the 19th Century, but that history is another subject, which I only have a wikipedia familiarity with.

It seems that, in the broader sense, 'fundamentalist' can be applied to any assumption (religious, or otherwise) that people hold in such a way that they refuse to consider alternative views - and possibly refuse to give an account of their assumptions/beliefs in terms of alternative views.

In other words, it seems that a central characteristic of fundamentalism is an inability to question one's fundamental beliefs.

It is worth saying that the refusal to adopt other's fundamental views/assumptions cannot be called fundamentalism. Otherwise anyone who fails to fundamentally adopt either atheism, or theism, or whatever, would be calked fundamentalist.

 

[Eventhorizon]

The quotes are due to me copying my answers to a similar line of inquiry at another forum. I've had this same conversation before.



Everyone is afraid of death in some manner. It's how we survive. That's why spiritual beliefs are instinctual within us, because we're aware of our eventual demise while simultaneously avoiding, preventing, delaying, and rationalizing it.

At risk of saying this and sounding combative or like I am trying to be "macho." I no longer fear death, that is the truth. I do fear any suffering that leads up to it. I fear the idea of laying in a hospital bed, in pain or some other torment knowing that I am dying and that I will never get out of the hospital bed again. But, death itself? No I dont fear it. I believed I was dying already and I made my peace with death already.

 

[hk427f3]

...who describes herself as a "science writer affiliated to the Department of Physiology, Anatomy and Genetics,"

Soo... not actually a scientist?

 

[Kgal]

I do believe in a life after death...but is that a spiritual thing or is it just the energy that is out "soul" yet unmeasured by science evolving or continuing on as energy only changes form and never really ends? There are so many near death experiences to back the claims of life after death. There is even the study of a Neurosurgeon who was technically "brain-dead", the doctors and family were ready to pull the plug, and yet he wakes up and has fantastical stories of his travels around the earth, into space, and into another dimension. If it were a dream though, there should have been something showing on the EEG, but there was ZERO brain activity....very interesting...it's instances like this this that give me what I would consider "faith" because it becomes tangible to myself being medically educated. It clicks with me and makes sense.
At the same time I have had certain bizarre experiences that science cannot explain....? I do not fear death actually, and perhaps that is part of why I cannot step off the fence...I have seen countless people die, some old, some young, some peacefully, and others in horrible ways...I know many people may make this claim of not fearing death but I'm not being egotistical here...my only regrets would be to leave my loved ones and the pain it may cause. If it all goes black, so be it...I like to think there is more and the near death experiences are not just dying neurons...how to take that step is what is cannot figure out.

I understand your point...it's just an incredibly frustrating issue for me...I want to believe...how do I do that? Where did the power of intention go in this regard?
How do you push past the veil?

Why do you want to believe?

What's the underlying motivation?

 

[Skarekrow]

Forgive me, I do not doubt you. I don't mean to suggest that it is impossible to come to terms with dying or our fear thereof, but fear is natural. I mean it in a very broad sense though, not as a specific occurrence. Like you said, you've had your own experiences with fear, death, and dying that have shaped your current perspective.

I mean to say that we oftentimes conflate death with dying and forget how broad and abstract the concept of death is and how complex our responses to it can be. Dying we can readily identify and come to terms with, albeit it reluctantly. Typically, we come to terms through confronting our fears. What are we willing to die for? How do we wish to pass and what experiences might we be unable to come to terms with? Disease, torture, or drowning? Certainly, few desire a horrible, insufferable, dishonorable, or ignoble death. All in all we desire to reduce our fear and anxiety regarding the inevitable, which naturally leads us to the next problem in coming to terms which is what 'being dead,' or the 'afterlife' means and how it shapes our perceptions towards living and dying in a process of confrontation. Attempting suicide, risk-taking behavior, religious devotion, escapism, aggression, etc. can all be manifestations of confronting fears and insecurities. Feeling like life is ultimately meaningless may seem like an unrelated issue to a fear of dying, but the abstract concepts of 'fear' and 'death' are intimately associated with 'life' and 'meaning'.

Death then, is more abstract, unknowable, and hence problematic to deal with. Why does the passing of a loved one emotionally hurt if we understand it as a natural occurrence? Why do we have any feelings whatsoever regarding the dead? Can we simply choose how to feel about it? Why shouldn't we commit suicide or kill others? Why is that bad? What does it mean? What purpose does it serve? How does it shape the meaning of our existence? What does it mean to no longer exist? Why do we want to understand death and the concept of 'after life'? Why is it important? Does it matter? Can we eliminate fear altogether? Why should we want to no longer experience fear or dread? Is it wrong to fear death or is it wrong to fear being afraid or is it wrong to question what is right or wrong?

Edit: A better use of 'fear' in a broad sense might be that of 'negativity' regarding our emotions. Because we have emotions towards our emotions, they operate as a feedback cycle. We have 'positive' emotions like joy, affection, excitement, and 'negative' emotions such as 'fear,' 'sadness,' 'anger,' and 'hatred.' Part of our confrontation is dealing with those 'negative' emotions in a positive manner rather than negatively or else we become caught in a vicious cycle where emotional and psychological problems can develop. It's easier said than done.



I mean to say that mortality is the central tenet that spirituality is to address. It is a broad concept that affects every aspect of life, so it can be equally complicated in trying to address or talk about. Meditation, prayer, and/or counseling are all helpful methods in managing the complexities of our emotions. I apologize if I didn't explain well enough. It's quite a bit to delve into and process all at once.

I thought you had quite an eloquent explanation, death and dying is quite a broad subject...yes, there are many aspects of it that the average person does not consider...I believe that most have been chosen or thrust upon me....it was a three part journey for me. The first was my suicide attempt, which can I please add would have been successful had my dying body not been discovered (at the time, I did it in my car to spare those I loved from finding me and traumatizing them...so if a wish to minimize the pain I cause others is a fear, then I must admit that) then I would have absolutely died. The second aspect the removed the fear of death from me was working for close to 5 years as an EMT, then Paramedic then as one in the ER. Within this job, not only do you get to see all aspect of death and dying, from the old to the young, violent deaths, murders, drugs, abuse, etc. you are personally responsible in many situations for their lives. I continued on and have worked for 10+ years in the OR, working as a scrub nurse, all types, including the open heart room, assisting with countless surgeries...mostly good, some very bad. The third was the death of my Father from cancer, and watching how he was dying and how he dealt with it...gracefully is the only word I can think of. I am sure he was afraid at the beginning when he found out (esophageal adenocarcinoma stage 4 that had metastasized to his brain...6 months) but I believe most of that fear was fear for his wife and family and if he had failed to leave them in a position of success or not. He never showed anger, he only showed the outlined regret near the beginning, in fact the last few months he was alive HE was the one making jokes and trying to cheer us up....I think he faced his own death over and over in Vietnam. It was difficult watching the man you look to as indestructible as a child, who is immeasurably strong...fade to nothing. I believe that this third part along with the other two and much self-inquiry has virtually eliminated my own fear of death. I know that is a difficult statement to swallow...like I have said before any fear associated with it is fear of pain, loss, etc. that I would cause to someone else. Why does it hurt to lose someone you love....because you no longer have that person with you. Why do we have feelings toward death? Because it is yet undiscovered as to it being a blank slate or an afterlife. I believe you cannot just choose how you feel about it, you must be shaped. As far as suicide and killing others, is it not wrong to harm others? To cause pain and suffering to others and/or their loved ones? I believe it is. Indeed what does it mean not to exist? Still thinking on that...but am not fearful. As far as the meaning of an afterlife goes...I am on the fence with that, is it just a way for people to deal with death in a way that makes it easy for them, or is their actually one? The meaning could be a good thing or a bad thing depending of your religious/personal views...i.e. you could go to "Hell", or be reincarnated in an undesirable manner (once karmic purgatory was over), or you could just reintegrate into everything, part of the collective "source". There are numerous afterlife scenarios of course...and my own belief is mainly "I'll find out when I die.". But several strange occurrences have led me to believe certain aspect of death are not just "the end". As a child, things moved in my room, even witnessed by my parents...one night there was a loud deep moan, too deep to be made by a child from my bedroom...my Father grabbed his billy club from Vietnam and was ready for a fight...they turned on the light and I was fast asleep, never explained. There have been several other instances that were even more violent in the past decade that I can relate to you if you wish but it would take a while to write down. Will science explain those things someday? Did my Parents hear something outside and think it was my bedroom...doubtful knowing my Dad. How did the toys move by themselves? (shrug) But it is those things, not my religious background that lends more weight to an afterlife personally.
I agree that I should meditate on it more...you are right...my mind just seems stubborn. And I thought you explained it quite well, thank you for your time, I understand this was a long post.
I appreciate it.

 

[Skarekrow]

It seems that you are interchanging the terms 'fundamentalism' and 'extremism'.

'Fundamentalist' is a term that several American protestant groups adopted for themselves in the 19th Century, but that history is another subject, which I only have a wikipedia familiarity with.

It seems that, in the broader sense, 'fundamentalist' can be applied to any assumption (religious, or otherwise) that people hold in such a way that they refuse to consider alternative views - and possibly refuse to give an account of their assumptions/beliefs in terms of alternative views.

In other words, it seems that a central characteristic of fundamentalism is an inability to question one's fundamental beliefs.

It is worth saying that the refusal to adopt other's fundamental views/assumptions cannot be called fundamentalism. Otherwise anyone who fails to fundamentally adopt either atheism, or theism, or whatever, would be calked fundamentalist.

How would you describe an "Extremist"...isn't it just a "Fundamentalist" who feels that their religious views have been put under attack to the point of violence?

At risk of saying this and sounding combative or like I am trying to be "macho." I no longer fear death, that is the truth. I do fear any suffering that leads up to it. I fear the idea of laying in a hospital bed, in pain or some other torment knowing that I am dying and that I will never get out of the hospital bed again. But, death itself? No I dont fear it. I believed I was dying already and I made my peace with death already.

I believe you...I have seen such instances within my job.

Soo... not actually a scientist?

She is a Neuroscientist, researcher and author at Oxford University.

Why do you want to believe?

What's the underlying motivation?

The underlying motivation is not wanting to lose those whom I love indefinitely...while I personally do not fear death for myself, I do fear hurting, harming, losing those that I care for or love. If that is just how it is then so be it, I can come to terms with that, but the unknowing...is like dangling a carrot the mule can never get.
I guess I want to have the comfort that goes with that knowingness...as an example, in the medical field, there has been study after study showing the power of religion, the power of a belief...it comforts them when they need it, not only that but their outcomes medically are better because of it. I want to have that faith and the comfort that it brings not to death but to life itself. It is a purely selfish intent I suppose, but isn't that all anyone wants available to them in life...to be a bit more comfortable in whatever aspect? I have always had a difficult time believing the intangible...it is difficult for me, I don't know why, it's extremely frustrating! It seems so easy for other's and yet even with my own experiences I can only carry a fleeting belief.

 

[Eventhorizon]

If that is just how it is then so be it, I can come to terms with that, but the unknowing...is like dangling a carrot the mule can never get.

You will find that carrot soon enough. We all will.

Your comments about your father made me tear up a bit. They are familiar to me.

 

[Skarekrow]

You will find that carrot soon enough. We all will.

Your comments about your father made me tear up a bit. They are familiar to me.

It's a work in progress...thanks for your input and support...I appreciate it more than you might think.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

How would you describe an "Extremist"...isn't it just a "Fundamentalist" who feels that their religious views have been put under attack to the point of violence?

No, I think an extremist is one who thinks that views other than his/hers should be erradicated; calling differing views 'evil', or 'superstitious', or 'a symptom of mental illness', or 'unhealthy', etc. In other words, extremism is essentially offensive, not defensive.

And to reiterate, the terms 'fundamentalism' and 'extremism' can equally be applied to atheistic and religious views - or indeed, to any kind of assumption, or opinion.

I think the author of the OP article is both fundamentalist and extremist in her approach to world views, other than her own.

 

[Skarekrow]

No, I think an extremist is one who thinks that views other than his/hers should be erradicated; calling differing views 'evil', or 'superstitious', or 'a symptom of mental illness', or 'unhealthy', etc. In other words, extremism is essentially offensive, not defensive.

And to reiterate, the terms 'fundamentalism' and 'extremism' can equally be applied to atheistic and religious views - or indeed, to any kind of assumption, or opinion.

I think the author of the OP article is both fundamentalist and extremist in her approach to world views, other than her own.

I suppose I see things differently...I see any fundamental religion as potentially extremist. They only need a small push in the wrong direction and voila...extremist.
Specifically I see the bible belt of the US as one of the most potentially dangerous large groups that in the near future will find that shove...it has already begun with the fight against gay marriage, abortion, the morning after pill...etc. I believe that one day very soon they will become violent. They have already shown this in small amounts with the Westboro Baptist church....I think as more and more people in the general population begin to accept things like being gay as a normal thing, and more states allowing gay marring etc. things that go against what they believe fundamentally...I think more and more churches will turn toward violence. The abortion bombings and killings have already been accepted as "okay" or "the will of God" within that community. How it is in Australia?

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

You should all sucky cocky.

 

[Skarekrow]

That might piss off the anti-gay extremists...

 

[the]

I suppose I see things differently...I see any fundamental religion as potentially extremist. They only need a small push in the wrong direction and voila...extremist.
Specifically I see the bible belt of the US as one of the most potentially dangerous large groups that in the near future will find that shove...it has already begun with the fight against gay marriage, abortion, the morning after pill...etc. I believe that one day very soon they will become violent. They have already shown this in small amounts with the Hillsboro Baptist church....I think as more and more people in the general population begin to accept things like being gay as a normal thing, and more states allowing gay marring etc. things that go against what they believe fundamentally...I think more and more churches will turn toward violence. The abortion bombings and killings have already been accepted as "okay" or "the will of God" within that community. How it is in Australia?

Got a link to Hillsboro baptists wrongdoings?

 

[Flavus Aquila]

I suppose I see things differently...I see any fundamental religion as potentially extremist. They only need a small push in the wrong direction and voila...extremist.
Specifically I see the bible belt of the US as one of the most potentially dangerous large groups that in the near future will find that shove...it has already begun with the fight against gay marriage, abortion, the morning after pill...etc. I believe that one day very soon they will become violent. They have already shown this in small amounts with the Hillsboro Baptist church....I think as more and more people in the general population begin to accept things like being gay as a normal thing, and more states allowing gay marring etc. things that go against what they believe fundamentally...I think more and more churches will turn toward violence. The abortion bombings and killings have already been accepted as "okay" or "the will of God" within that community. How it is in Australia?

Religion isn't very big in Australia. People either go to church on Sunday, or they don't... and they don't talk/think about it for the rest of the week. That's about it.

Most fundamentalism/extremism in Australia seems to be about economic theory and boarder protection/immigration. (There are both extreme left and right wing views in these areas).

 

[Skarekrow]

Got a link to Hillsboro baptists wrongdoings?

Lololol...I screwed up the name...Westboro baptist church....ugh....see - lack of sleep. Here you go : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church

Religion isn't very big in Australia. People either go to church on Sunday, or they don't... and they don't talk/think about it for the rest of the week. That's about it.

Most fundamentalism/extremism in Australia seems to be about economic theory and boarder protection/immigration. (There are both extreme left and right wing views in these areas).

Must be nice...I see nothing wrong with religion itself...but I see too much manipulation of the teachings to bend folks to their will here.

 

[jyrffw54]

I just wanted to point out how ironic it is that Head quarters of 700 Club/Pat Robertson and Edgar Cayce's A.R.E are both located in my city.

 

[muir]

I just wanted to point out how ironic it is that Head quarters of 700 Club/Pat Robertson and Edgar Cayce's A.R.E are both located in my city.

They play both ends against the middle

 

[Quiet]

Her suggestion is idiotic.



You're not going to be able to 'cure' radical Islam with drugs like it is an anxiety attack. To become a radical anything or to beat your child is a choice that you make. She is suggesting some sort of drugs or similar that would be capable of either making people impervious to what their culture deems acceptable (i.e. beating children), incapable of aggression (radical Islam), or both. I do not see how either is possible, and even if they are, I am not sure how the outcome could be good. If you ignore the bad of your culture, you'll probably ignore the good as well. As for aggression that you act on, that seems incredibly scary to me.

She claims to be protecting people from mind control, but if she succeeded and helped develop a drug that could do this, it would allow for people to have their minds controlled by external authorities.

I agree completely. This kind of thinking is pretty freaky. Its literally denying people their basic human right of free will and free thought. Granted that most people are contantly being brainwashed and dont exercise their power of free will, but no one has the right to take that choice away from them. I may not like a lot of beliefs and attitudes but to take that right away from people to hold them seems very extremist and fascist.

Sometimes i wonder how we could create a better society where human rights were upheld and people could still hold their personal and cultural beliefs and have their lifestyles within that framework. It seems like such a delicate balance. Clearly there are a lot of cultural and personal beliefs that violate human rights completely. I think if these violations become obvious and people are getting hurt then we have a responsibility to act. Particularly if there are children involved. But sometimes its not so simple, especailly when it involves consenting adults that voluntarilly choose to hold certain beliefs and live a certain way. The only thing we can really do as a society then is to offer as much education and safety nets as possible, so if people that are caught up in harmful cultural beliefs 'want out', there is a way out for them. If we really care about people caught up in destructive belief systems, we can be kind to them and offer them alternatives and support, thereby reiterating their freedom of choice and their responsibility to make their own informed choices. Empowerment is definately the key, excercising responsbility of what you choose to believe and understanding that you have a choice. We all have the ability to choose and change beliefs, we do this constanatly. The answer is not more authoritative brainwashing and drugs

And in terms of brainwashing, i think the marketing industry has a lot to answer for. Why do we put up with their shit? The amount of money they invest into brainwashing people is staggering, and then most people voluntarilly tune themselves into the tube to get their regular upload. So easy to just tune out. Only if you want to, ofcourse

Im sick of new 'mental illnesses' being invented. And new drugs and technologies that bigpharma can supply to the population to treat these mental illnesses. However, if someone really wanted to change their belefs and were willling to go through a 'treatment' to do so, then i think they have the right to do so. it just open up a world of scary possibilities and even more methods to control others. Sounds very clockwork orange and 1984- scary

 

[Tstar]

I think I would need to actually read the book before I can make an assessment on this issue. But I am interested in reading more on it should I come across it again.