[PUG] Religious Texts

[SamE]

Externalized reality without internalized reality, the unification tends to be diffuse, its how it is I suppose.

 

[Billy]

An interesting topic...

I agree, I don't think most American's think of the Bible as literal text, but the cultural myth probably would indicate that this is so.

Of course they dont, this is a fantasy of Europeans who feel non-significant globally. It tough giving up all those empires.

 

[randomsomeone]

this is a fantasy of Europeans who feel non-significant globally.

That may well be true...hadn't looked at it from that angle.

Still, I think if you pressed most Christians who value the Bible it would become clear that they do not take it as simplistically, or rigidly, as it might seem. Most have have been amply exposed to scholarly studies in various disciplines, consideration of various sources, and original language texts to understand the complexity of the volume. This has all been out there for many decades. They may use it as a primary source, yes, even that is generally seen in a broader light.

Not to say that you or I have not been accosted/cornered by the odd zealot who has little interest in explaining a more complex position. That ain't fun. They don't even back down with another Christian!!

 

[88chaz88]

That may well be true...hadn't looked at it from that angle.

Please don't say you're actually considering the opinion of a xenophobic moron. This is not "the fantasy of Europeans", more an observation (maybe an incorrect one) made by me.

The assumption isn't unfounded though. To give you an idea of how I got this impression, before I started talking to Americans over the internet, I had no idea what a creationist was. The idea that god made Adam, Eve, and everything exactly like it says in the Bible was only the idea of one or two mad people over here. Even my R.E. teacher (who was a preacher at church) thought it was madness and wasn't shy of saying so. Yet I learned that you have centres and even museums dedicated to this nonsense!

Maybe I was wrong to say "most" but the taking of the Bible as a literal text is certainly more prominant than it is here.

 

[Questingpoet]

You are assuming too much here Chaz. The crazies that go overboard with the bible get too much press and are not indicative of a decent sized majority here. Yes there is a sizable portion that take the bible too seriously, too literally, but keep in mind that this country is vast with many, many opinions. Those of us with less then positive opinions of that work of fiction tend to keep quiet as you are demonized by the outspoken religious communities for being "godless". It can be a difficult thing to actually profess to be spiritual without worshiping the bible.

.

 

[Barnabas]

I trying to figure out where to draw lines in the sand here.

Are we talking about strict literalist Christians who believe every word of the Bible is intended as absolutely literal.

Or are we talking about Christians who try to discern what parts of the Bible are literal and which ones are figurative as opposed to a culture which see's it entirely figuratively.


I think option B. is what your going to find most U.S. Christians being.

 

[Lucidmoon]

Specifically The Bible.

Most religious people I know around here see it as being symbolic, yet swing by to America and it seems that most of you take it as a literal text. A factual recording of everything that actually happened from the beginning of creation which goes against what most scientists know (with their evidence).

So why would you believe in this? What makes your text any different from the others out there?

As a disclaimer, I'm open to being proved wrong, or even converted, but since it hasn't happened yet in my 24 years, I doubt it will now.

I choose not to respond to your question specifically but want to point out your country has had a falling out with God so to speak and been disenchanted with Christianity for a while. I know this is true from my own exposure to the culture and specific English people. Not an insult at all - simply an observation. Would you say this is true?

Either way it doesn't bother me since I think I can understand it (being an atheist for most of my life) but I can imagine the religious American culture must seem fascinating and bizarre compared to yours.

 

[Barnabas]

As an American I would like to caution you about the pittfalls of judging the US. The south and the US at large is a complicated and multifaceted place. Its people hold a wide variety of beliefs and positions. They have a history shaped by intense religious and philosophical forces.

.........

 

[88chaz88]

You are assuming too much here Chaz. The crazies that go overboard with the bible get too much press and are not indicative of a decent sized majority here. Yes there is a sizable portion that take the bible too seriously, too literally, but keep in mind that this country is vast with many, many opinions.

I apologise for using one brush to paint an entire culture with. It's just when I see museums of creationism, it's hard to believe that there are some rational thinkers out there.

Those of us with less then positive opinions of that work of fiction tend to keep quiet as you are demonized by the outspoken religious communities for being "godless". It can be a difficult thing to actually profess to be spiritual without worshiping the bible.

Which is one of the main causes of the confusion. I find it so strange for athiests or rational believers to keep quiet because of a few loud-mouthed nutcases.

I trying to figure out where to draw lines in the sand here.

Are we talking about strict literalist Christians who believe every word of the Bible is intended as absolutely literal.

Or are we talking about Christians who try to discern what parts of the Bible are literal and which ones are figurative as opposed to a culture which see's it entirely figuratively.


I think option B. is what your going to find most U.S. Christians being.

I must confess, I was mostly thinking of creationism, which I put into the former category. If you believe god created the world in 7 days, Adam and Eve, and all that, I see no reason why you'd take the rest of the Bible figuratively.

I choose not to respond to your question specifically but want to point out your country has had a falling out with God so to speak and been disenchanted with Christianity for a while. I know this is true from my own exposure to the culture and specific English people. Not an insult at all - simply an observation. Would you say this is true?

Falling out with god? Perhaps. I do know a fair few people that hold spiritual beliefs, in fact almost everyone I know does. Though an outsider would probably count them as athiest.

I think the main difference is over here spirituality is mainly a deeply personal thing. Not many go in for organised religion.

Either way it doesn't bother me since I think I can understand it (being an atheist for most of my life) but I can imagine the religious American culture must seem fascinating and bizarre compared to yours.

While there are similarities in culture, it always seems that there are more differences. I enjoy attempting to understand it though.

 

[Lucidmoon]

As an Irish American I would like to caution you about the pittfalls of judging the English. England and the UK at large is a complicated and multifaceted place. Its people hold a wide variety of beliefs and positions. They have a history shaped by intense religious and philosophical forces.

Yep, that's why I ended my observation with a question. I can only form a perception based on my experience but as long as I keep the dialog open with questions I think I'm being fair.

 

[Barnabas]

I would appreciate it if you would not edited my words when quoting me. The fact that you did it and did not change it when I protested suggests that you attribute to yourself an inflated self image.

I've just gotten on the forum, I'm assuming the message you've deleted is the one in which you asked me to modify/delete?

how would you like it to be modified? As for the intent of the restructured quote, It was simply to point out the same truth you applied to the UK,should also be applied to the US.

 

[88chaz88]

@Lucidmoon. you sidestepped his question to ask him why his country has "turned away from God".


no offense but that is a horribly self righteous thing to say, and it is fraught with prejudice. (no insult intended)

I didn't read it as such. The question at the end implied that the statement before was more of an opinion (even if it wasn't stated as one) and left an opening for me to agree or disagree. The question certainly wasn't phrased in a way that asserted the statement as being true.

It's the difference between "You're an idiot. Would you agree?" and "Why are you such an idiot?"

I'm not calling you an idiot btw, just using an insult to make the example closer to the original post.

 

[Barnabas]

I must confess, I was mostly thinking of creationism, which I put into the former category. If you believe god created the world in 7 days, Adam and Eve, and all that, I see no reason why you'd take the rest of the Bible figuratively.

The Bible is composed of 66 books and recorded by at least 40 different authors, all who had different style and intent for the content and the people who would read it.

By understanding the different authors and their styles we can look into their own individual use of figurative and literal language. So while Moses may have or may have not been literal in Genesis 1, It is not to say that he wasn't being literal in Exodus or the John wasn't being literal in his Gospel.

 

[ontheroadtohope]

To answer your original question, I think a lot of how the Bible is interpreted (literally vs. figuratively) in the U.S. depends on culture (not sure if culture is the right word here or not). For example, growing up in the rural South, I've talked with and listened to far more people who interpret the Bible literally (such as an actual 7 days of Creation and an actual Rapture) than people who interpret it figuratively. But since going to college (even though it's still in the South), I've found that people who espouse the literal interpretation make up much less of the overall population.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I believe the difference depends on cultural context or environment. And by no means is it just the South -- but it does happen to be the geographical area I've had the most experience with and feel comfortable talking about. Something else I've observed (which may fit into the cultural environment category) is that more heavily urbanized areas seem to be less religious as a whole than more rural areas. I don't know of any statistics on this dichotomy, but I think it would be interesting if there are any studies or research out there that delves into whether these differences actually exist and if so, why.

 

[Lucidmoon]

[MENTION=3429]Lucidmoon[/MENTION]. you sidestepped his question to ask him why his country has "a falling out with God".


no offense but that is a horribly self righteous thing to say, and it is fraught with prejudice. (no insult intended)

Quite an inaccurate statement. I did not ask him why his country had a falling out with God but if he thought that was true. BIG difference.

 

[Lucidmoon]

So glad you understood the context, Chaz ~

I'm also to a point where I don't feel the need to overly demonstrate that what I'm saying is my opinion since that is a given - it's a redundant gesture unless what you're saying is particularly divisive or insulting.

My statement could have been viewed that way if not followed up with a question and an explicit explanation of my intentions.

 

[TheLastMohican]

You are out of the bounds of polite discourse when you falsely quote another individual. I do not care what your reasons are. http://forums.infjs.com/showthread.php?t=9751

He edited your quote to make a point, not to make people think that you actually said what he quoted. It's a very common practice on the internet, and his intent was made obvious by the fact that he did not add a reply to the quote