Revenge

This is such a fascinating question for so many reasons.

I’m naturally not inclined to seek revenge and I get no pleasure from being vindictive - I just don’t see how getting even would help me other than to save face which I’m really not fussed about. I get much more pleasure from trying to understand the why’s and how’s etc.

However, there was one incident that transformed my life as a result of me thinking about revenge and I’m very grateful that I never acted out. I was in a relationship with this guy that I really liked (blimey, thinking about it now, I actually thought I was in love with him!). An incident occurred (long story) and I felt hurt about how he had treated me and I remember thinking (not plotting…it was more of a thought) that I was going to trash his place and leave.

It was almost instantaneously that I had one of those self-actualisation moments….I call them my “heavenly downloads.” I realised one of the reasons why I was attracted to him was because he was mirroring a part of my life that I was oblivious to ie afraid of emotional intimacy. It’s difficult to explain but somehow in a moment everything became so clear. I just knew the part we both played within the relationship - we were two hurting individuals and unhealthily needed each other in order to keep our life scripts alive. I made a decision to walk away (his flat intact) and any feelings I had for him literally vanished. I brought closure to the relationship by writing him a letter as it was important for me to clear the air, not label or point the finger at but to give us both the freedom to move on. I will always try to clear the air rather than seeking revenge and this was so important to me that I asked my best friend (who is now my wonderful husband) to proofread the letter! :) The stalking occurred soon after (but that’s another story)…..I have moved on with my life and to this day I really hope he has too.

I find that it helps to just pause, take some time out to reflect, think, speak to someone who I can trust, pray for that person who has ill-treated me and see where that takes me rather than to seek self gratification through revenge. It’s not always easy to do but we all need compassion and grace……
 
Isabella said:
This is such a fascinating question for so many reasons.

I’m naturally not inclined to seek revenge and I get no pleasure from being vindictive - I just don’t see how getting even would help me other than to save face which I’m really not fussed about. I get much more pleasure from trying to understand the why’s and how’s etc.

However, there was one incident that transformed my life as a result of me thinking about revenge and I’m very grateful that I never acted out. I was in a relationship with this guy that I really liked (blimey, thinking about it now, I actually thought I was in love with him!). An incident occurred (long story) and I felt hurt about how he had treated me and I remember thinking (not plotting…it was more of a thought) that I was going to trash his place and leave.

It was almost instantaneously that I had one of those self-actualisation moments….I call them my “heavenly downloads.” I realised one of the reasons why I was attracted to him was because he was mirroring a part of my life that I was oblivious to ie afraid of emotional intimacy. It’s difficult to explain but somehow in a moment everything became so clear. I just knew the part we both played within the relationship - we were two hurting individuals and unhealthily needed each other in order to keep our life scripts alive. I made a decision to walk away (his flat intact) and any feelings I had for him literally vanished. I brought closure to the relationship by writing him a letter as it was important for me to clear the air, not label or point the finger at but to give us both the freedom to move on. I will always try to clear the air rather than seeking revenge and this was so important to me that I asked my best friend (who is now my wonderful husband) to proofread the letter! :) The stalking occurred soon after (but that’s another story)…..I have moved on with my life and to this day I really hope he has too.

I find that it helps to just pause, take some time out to reflect, think, speak to someone who I can trust, pray for that person who has ill-treated me and see where that takes me rather than to seek self gratification through revenge. It’s not always easy to do but we all need compassion and grace……
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I'm exactly the same way. The best revenge is success and happiness. I think those ppl who plot revenge become embittered fools.
 
Isabella said:
I’m naturally not inclined to seek revenge and I get no pleasure from being vindictive - I just don’t see how getting even would help me other than to save face which I’m really not fussed about. I get much more pleasure from trying to understand the why’s and how’s etc.
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I found another reason for revenge. Not pleasure or saving face, but teaching. The phrase 'teaching a lesson' has a negative connotation for a reason.
If I want to plot revenge, someone has hurt me. I want them to know how much they hurt me. I want to make sure they don't do it again. Mostly this means I still care about that person. Obviously if I didn't care about the person anymore, I just would be indifferent to it all.
I want to do something to them they won't forget. So they'll learn. So they'll become better persons. Because I still care (too much) about them.
If I ever think about revenge this is always the founding reason (although I don't always realise that).

Last year I had a friends with benefits relationship. At some point we hadn't had any sex for months, but still saw each other often. Finally she had time again, but at a party we both went to she hooked up with a different guy (against an specific agreement we had). I was angry at first, then forgiving. Then when she didn't show a single sign of remorse, angry again. A devastating question dawned to me, molded and twisted by my anger. It would prove to me that she's a bad person. She had said that she was too drunk and tired to remember most of it and that it probably was the reason she didn't take me into account.

You were too drunk to remember or care about our agreement, but were you also too drunk to remember a condom and care about your own health?

If answered yes, this implies she was rational and considering, but still didn't care about me. A further implication is that she cares about herself, but not about others. At that time I thought this question would seal my judgement about her. I got more furious even thinking about it.

At some point I quickly mentioned her that I had formed a terrible question (not terrible as bad quality, but terrible as evil). A while later (unrelated) she broke down crying about . I finally saw that she felt sorry and all my anger disappeared *poof*. I had no intention of using the question.
But while she was still in crying mode, she asked me what the question was. I was honest. She answered yes. It didn't change much at the moment. I just wanted to comfort her as I still cared about her and she was crying. Later I heard that a few hours after she had realised what the question meant and broke down again in guilt and self-hate. Obviously her state made her see the negative in everything, but still. While my initial grounds for this question wasn't inducing guilt it proved to be extremely effective.

The question implied a lot, but was still asked as question. The receiver will not perceive it as a judgement that the asker made, but as something factual that the asker made the receiver realise. It's a bit like in the movie Inception, where the protagonists plant an idea in the mind of a person, except simpler :p

Oh oh, sweet educational guilt-inducing revenge!

PS I also love the fact that I never acted on it with the purpose of revenge, but that her curiosity made me reveal it.
 
Erlian said:
Last year I had a friends with benefits relationship.
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I’m deviating but I got a little fixated with this....very interesting - have you considered starting a new thread on this subject? :) Anyway I digress!



Erlian said:
Oh oh, sweet educational guilt-inducing revenge!
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Now I may have interpreted the above wrongly but I'm getting a very strong sense that you got some pleasure from this?

There are many reasons why people seek revenge but ultimately (for me) the act of retaliation goes back to self-gratification ie fixing a bruised ego, erase shame, humiliation and restore pride — all part of saving face.
 
Erlian said:
I found another reason for revenge. Not pleasure or saving face, but teaching. The phrase 'teaching a lesson' has a negative connotation for a reason.
If I want to plot revenge, someone has hurt me. I want them to know how much they hurt me. I want to make sure they don't do it again. Mostly this means I still care about that person. Obviously if I didn't care about the person anymore, I just would be indifferent to it all.
I want to do something to them they won't forget. So they'll learn. So they'll become better persons. Because I still care (too much) about them.
If I ever think about revenge this is always the founding reason (although I don't always realise that).

Last year I had a friends with benefits relationship. At some point we hadn't had any sex for months, but still saw each other often. Finally she had time again, but at a party we both went to she hooked up with a different guy (against an specific agreement we had). I was angry at first, then forgiving. Then when she didn't show a single sign of remorse, angry again. A devastating question dawned to me, molded and twisted by my anger. It would prove to me that she's a bad person. She had said that she was too drunk and tired to remember most of it and that it probably was the reason she didn't take me into account.

You were too drunk to remember or care about our agreement, but were you also too drunk to remember a condom and care about your own health?

If answered yes, this implies she was rational and considering, but still didn't care about me. A further implication is that she cares about herself, but not about others. At that time I thought this question would seal my judgement about her. I got more furious even thinking about it.

At some point I quickly mentioned her that I had formed a terrible question (not terrible as bad quality, but terrible as evil). A while later (unrelated) she broke down crying about . I finally saw that she felt sorry and all my anger disappeared *poof*. I had no intention of using the question.
But while she was still in crying mode, she asked me what the question was. I was honest. She answered yes. It didn't change much at the moment. I just wanted to comfort her as I still cared about her and she was crying. Later I heard that a few hours after she had realised what the question meant and broke down again in guilt and self-hate. Obviously her state made her see the negative in everything, but still. While my initial grounds for this question wasn't inducing guilt it proved to be extremely effective.

The question implied a lot, but was still asked as question. The receiver will not perceive it as a judgement that the asker made, but as something factual that the asker made the receiver realise. It's a bit like in the movie Inception, where the protagonists plant an idea in the mind of a person, except simpler :p

Oh oh, sweet educational guilt-inducing revenge!

PS I also love the fact that I never acted on it with the purpose of revenge, but that her curiosity made me reveal it.
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This is a total tangent that I'm going to go on--completely unrelated to the topic of revenge... but I feel very strange about the concept of wanting to control the sexual choices of someone.

I feel strongly about wanting to be in control of myself, but it is difficult for me to grasp the concept of a person not wanting their partner to be intimate/physical with other people while in a relationship with them. Rephrased: I understand a personal desire to follow through on commitment, but not the judgment towards others regarding their transgression of their commitments; I don't relate to feeling that kind of bond towards a person, or otherwise a desire to restrict their behaviour. I suppose I view the restriction of sexuality simply for the sake of itself (I can understand wanting to prevent the spread of STIs and bloodborne disease etc., however) as purposeless.
 
niffer said:
This is a total tangent that I'm going to go on--completely unrelated to the topic of revenge... but I feel very strange about the concept of wanting to control the sexual choices of someone.

I feel strongly about wanting to be in control of myself, but it is difficult for me to grasp the concept of a person not wanting their partner to be intimate/physical with other people while in a relationship with them. Rephrased: I understand a personal desire to follow through on commitment, but not the judgment towards others regarding their transgression of their commitments; I don't relate to feeling that kind of bond towards a person, or otherwise a desire to restrict their behaviour. I suppose I view the restriction of sexuality simply for the sake of itself (I can understand wanting to prevent the spread of STIs and bloodborne disease etc., however) as purposeless.
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This is so interesting. So, even when you are crazy in love with someone, you would willingly share him with other women?
 
TooShyToSay said:
This is so interesting. So, even when you are crazy in love with someone, you would willingly share him with other women?
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I've never been in a situation where a person has wanted to involve themselves with someone else while I was in love with them, so honestly my opinions are only musings and not the result of experience, but rather, the absence of yet experiencing those thoughts and emotions while in the committed/passionate loving relationships I've been in.

Essentially, I dislike the idea in and of itself, of restricting people's behaviour. If someone I was in love with were to get involved with another woman: firstly, whether or not I would feel negatively about it is something I feel I cannot forsee; secondly, should I feel negative emotion, it would be in direct conflict with this value of mine of wanting to not be controlling. I want those that I care about to have as much freedom to do what they want and to fulfill their desires as much as possible. To me, loving someone is about being an advocate for them getting what they want, and the emotions of mine that interfere with that are a detriment to my support of their personal success and happiness.
 
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niffer said:
I've never been in a situation where a person has wanted to involve themselves with someone else while I was in love with them, so honestly my opinions are only musings and not the result of experience, but rather, the absence of yet experiencing those thoughts and emotions while in the committed/passionate loving relationships I've been in.

Essentially, I dislike the idea in and of itself, of restricting people's behaviour. If someone I was in love with were to get involved with another woman: firstly, whether or not I would feel negatively about it is something I feel I cannot forsee; secondly, should I feel negative emotion, it would be in direct conflict with this value of mine of wanting to not be controlling. I want those that I care about to have as much freedom to do what they want and to fulfill their desires as much as possible. To me, loving someone is about being an advocate for them getting what they want, and the emotions of mine that interfere with that are a detriment to my support of their personal success and happiness.
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I feel the same way that you do about not wanting to control my SO and that loving someone is supporting them to be who they need to be. However, I don't see the choice of being in a monogamous relationship as being controlling. It is about healthy boundaries and mutual respect. Would you consider it controlling someone if you didn't want them to lie to you, steal from you or hit you? If someone tells you that they can't or don't want to be monogamous and you still get into a relationship with them and try to change them then that would be controlling, but if it is supposed to be a monogamous relationship then it is not controlling to expect it to be so, just as it would not be controlling to not want to be lied to or hit by your partner.
 
La Sagna said:
I feel the same way that you do about not wanting to control my SO and that loving someone is supporting them to be who they need to be. However, I don't see the choice of being in a monogamous relationship as being controlling. It is about healthy boundaries and mutual respect. Would you consider it controlling someone if you didn't want them to lie to you, steal from you or hit you? If someone tells you that they can't or don't want to be monogamous and you still get into a relationship with them and try to change them then that would be controlling, but if it is supposed to be a monogamous relationship then it is not controlling to expect it to be so, just as it would not be controlling to not want to be lied to or hit by your partner.
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I understand not wanting to be hurt, and wanting to be respected. I agree that that's healthy, and I can see the purpose to that. I guess I just don't relate to the feeling of desiring for my partner to be monogamous in the first place, or worrying about being hurt from my partner choosing to be intimate with another person. Perhaps I either am just lacking in experience, or my sense of boundaries within personal relationships is unusually lackadaisical.

So I only view it as "controlling" relative to my own point of reference of my emotional experiences. I hope that got across okay.
 
[MENTION=3998]niffer[/MENTION]

First of all, some people are not monogamous and I believe that is a personal choice that people are entitled to. As long as they are honest with all partners and have safe practices then it can work and it can be normal for them.

I just thought it was an odd way to see monogamy, as controlling. I wanted to frame it in a different way because sometimes very accepting people, like me, end up accepting things that really are not comfortable simply because they want to be accommodating and non-controlling. I've had trouble with having proper boundaries in the past and, although monogamy was not open for discussion, I did put up with some behaviours that I shouldn't have simply because I didn't feel I wanted to be his 'mother' and tell him what he shouldn't and should be doing or have to pressure him to do anything. I guess, it's about balance, knowing the difference between what is controlling and where boundaries need to be put in place for a healthy relationship to develop. Everybody's boundaries are different, so that's why for many monogamy is important but for some it isn't, and you have to figure out what your boundaries are and not feel like they are controlling. Those are two different things. To be honest, being in a position to start a new relationship, I know that boundaries are my weak point and I have to be very vigilant, but I still don't want to be controlling. It is a fine balance, but I have to allow myself the right to demand certain things that are very important to me and monogamy is one of them
.

Also, sometimes people who can't easily empathize with others have a difficult time imagining themselves in a certain situation, and because you can't see yourself being hurt or jealous in the situation does not mean you wouldn't be.
 
Isabella said:
I’m deviating but I got a little fixated with this....very interesting - have you considered starting a new thread on this subject? :) Anyway I digress!
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I think I already made one. Well, not directly about FWB, but about some of the aftermath. I describe the timeline of the relationship in more detail there.
http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28769


Isabella said:
Now I may have interpreted the above wrongly but I'm getting a very strong sense that you got some pleasure from this?

There are many reasons why people seek revenge but ultimately (for me) the act of retaliation goes back to self-gratification ie fixing a bruised ego, erase shame, humiliation and restore pride – all part of saving face.
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Pleasure, yes.
Pleasure because of her pain? No.
Pleasure because I left an impression? Yes. I don't think she'll forget what we had. The good and the bad.

The desire to leave an impression reminded me of a quote from Troy. It's a bit more extreme, but it's the same idea.
Achilles' mother to Achilles:
"If you stay in Larisa......you will find peace. You will find a wonderful woman.
You will have sons and daughters, and they will have children.
And they will love you. When you are gone, they will remember you.
But when your children are dead and their children after them...
...your name will be lost.

If you go to Troy...
...glory will be yours.
They will write stories about your victories for thousands of years. The world will remember your name.
But if you go to Troy...
...you will never come home.
For your glory walks hand in hand with your doom.

And I shall never see you again."
 
Revenge is tricky. I can understand people's desire to exact revenge on a person for a perceived wrong doing but I don't think that following through on it is useful. It seems to me that revenge is fairly egoic and an attempt to regain the upper hand in a particular relationship by trying to cut someone else down to size. I think revenge has a fairly strong fantasy element to it and people can often get caught up in the idea that their plans and their execution somehow are significant and powerful and will make a difference.

The wrong doing was already done. I think strong, resilient people will take strides to improve their own lives. I don't have an issue with justice where it is due, but I think plotting revenge for the sake of your own ego is low. I also think in some cases the people who were hurt can be over sensitive and overly imaginative when sorting out the perpetrator's intentions. It can just get to be a bit much.
 
Revenge doesn't do it for me unless its over the top. I prefer in many cases to just let the mistakes of others to slide, and only get revenge on people who act maliciously - which almost never happens.
 
Superlative said:
Have you ever pursued an action out of pure revenge? Describe the situation prior to your reaction. What did you do?
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Ech, yes. I once posted mean jokes on Pinterest directed at someone who I knew was lurking. I did it because this someone had "termianted" (her word) our friendship when I told her that her non-stop, inane texts were a monologue. It was a really bizarre reason to end a friendship on her part, being called out on this juvenile texting dysphoria, but when she half-assedly apologized and tried to blame it on hormones, I said I was just too busy for our friendship because of all the awesome things (lie) that were going on in my life. And I actually liked this person a lot before she got taken over by some kind of texting demon and then "terminated" me.
 
enacting revenge is a profoundly immature way of relating to others that is only excusable for people who are too far out of their minds with grief to be able to walk away from a situation that is beneath them.
 
invisible said:
enacting revenge is a profoundly immature way of relating to others that is only excusable for people who are too far out of their minds with grief to be able to walk away from a situation that is beneath them.
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I think it is understandable and even acceptable under certain circumstances.
 
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PintoBean said:
I think it is understandable and even acceptable under circumstances.
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so do i, like if the person is so hurt that they cant think straight about what they are doing. otherwise its fair to call it vindictive. who wants to be vindictive? it doesnt seem like a desirable quality that i would want to nurture in my self, but some people might want to see themselves that way, im not sure.

its up to people to decide for themselves whether or not some wrongdoer is worthy of their attention, but if they do that, they are evaluating their own attention as being valuable only at the level that it is worth wasting on a worthless person.
 
I think from listening to perspectives of different mbti types and from observing the world that feelings types tend to be more passionate and act in the moment in a rush of blood to the head whereas thinking types are more calculated

A thinking type for example would follow the creedo that 'revenge is a dish best served cold'

Thinking types will scheme and plot over long periods of time as they fantasise the hurt they intend to inflict on their chosen target who they have decided is to blame for their misery because their ego cannot accept any personal responsibility or blame for their own situation

A feeling type on the other hand is more likely to feel compassion, forgiveness and remorse

Thank god there are feeling types in the world or the world would just be full of cold calculated revenge seekers plotting against each other
 
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