Self-improvement credences, creeds of the sociopath?

[Radiantshadow]

+1 to TDHT and Stormy

'Cause, y'know, having the symptoms for a migraine really mean you have brain cancer.

 

[palomica26.2]

In all things, moderation, including extreme-sounding advice.

Life seems to be all about finding balance within with all of the conflicting ideas, morals, values, behaviors, habits, etc, that we develop as we age. Every type goes through the cycle of personality. Sometimes we are at our worst and sometimes we are at our best. I find moderation more of a challenge when things are at their worst, but I also find that at times when they are at their best. I guess I can't expect people to think endurance athletes are moderate about physical activity!

 

[Paladin-X]

Hmm... If I've offended any INTJs, I kindly ask that you remove the perceived slight. There isn't one. It is merely an observation. Do I believe that INTJ's are sociopaths? Some are, but for the most part, I do not believe that. How is it that you believe that I believe that INTJ's are sociopaths? I'm curious why some appear defensive, perceiving slights where none was given. Was it truly what I wrote? Or in how, what I wrote, was perceived?

 

[sassafras]

Hmm... If I've offended any INTJs, I kindly ask that you remove the perceived slight. There isn't one. It is merely an observation. Do I believe that INTJ's are sociopaths? Some are, but for the most part, I do not believe that. How is it that you believe that I believe that INTJ's are sociopaths? I'm curious why some appear defensive, perceiving slights where none was given. Was it truly what I wrote? Or in how, what I wrote, was perceived?

Let's look at post. The post itself is titled 'Self Improvement Credences, The Creeds of a Sociopath?'

In the body of the post you wrote:

These are common suggestions found on any given anxiety, depression or other self-improvement sites. A thought just occurred to me however, the recommendations themselves, also sound like the characteristics of a sociopath!

And then you wrote:

Correlation #2 - I would use these same characteristics in describing an INTJ. :S

You started off by declaring that these characteristics describe a sociopath. And then later added that these also correlate with an INTJ.

You probably didn't mean to directly say 'INTJs are sociopaths' but I hope you can see it's not that much of a leap to suggest that was the impression you gave given the way you worded your post.

I hope that clarifies things.

 

[Paladin-X]

Well to argue semantics as I'm wont to do...

These are common suggestions found on any given anxiety, depression or other self-improvement sites. A thought just occurred to me however, the recommendations themselves, also sound like the characteristics of a sociopath!

This is my perceived emphasis. Your explanation leads me to believe that my statement was perceived as:

These are common suggestions found on any given anxiety, depression or other self-improvement sites. A thought just occurred to me however, the recommendations themselves, [are] the characteristics of a sociopath!

If this is correct, how does one define "sounds like" to mean "are"?

In the second quote mentioned, pertaining to INTJs, perhaps 'could' is a more apt verb than would.

It sounds like nitpicking, and I am, but I am trying to learn something. Thank you for your assistance.

 

[Nixie]

. A thought just occurred to me however, the recommendations themselves, also sound like the characteristics of a sociopath!

Summarized:

1. Stop taking so much notice of how you feel.
2. Let go of worrying. It often makes things worse.
3. Ease up on the internal life commentary.
4. Take no notice of your inner critic.
5. Give up on feeling guilty.
6. Stop being concerned what the rest of the world says about you.
7. Stop keeping score.
8. Don't be concerned that your life and career aren't working out the way you planned.
9. Don't let others use you to avoid being responsible for their own decisions.
10. Don't worry about your personality. You don't really have one.

This is merely an observation. I do not now posit that you should avoid these stress-reducing ideas!

Correlation #2 - I would use these same characteristics in describing an INTJ. :S

I'm gonna say that there isn't any perceived slight but actual slight by your words.

 

[sassafras]

Well to argue semantics as I'm wont to do...



This is my perceived emphasis. Your explanation leads me to believe that my statement was perceived as:



If this is correct, how does one define "sounds like" to mean "are"?

In the second quote mentioned, pertaining to INTJs, perhaps 'could' is a more apt verb than would.

It sounds like nitpicking, and I am, but I am trying to learn something. Thank you for your assistance.

All right, so to paraphrase given your brief seminar on semantics, this was the progression of statements you made:

To me, the following characteristics sound like characteristics of a sociopath.

These same characteristics made me think that they could also describe INTJs.

If this is true then you could, at minimum, say that you (inadvertently?) implied that INTJs and sociopaths share this same list of characteristics.

Still, however way you slice it, I don't think many people would appreciate the suggestion that they potentially share the same list of personality traits that you might equate to someone with a personality disorder. I hope you can see that now.

 

[Paladin-X]

I'm gonna say that there isn't any perceived slight but actual slight by your words.

I disagree. Words have no feeling. We apply feeling to those words. Thus the feeling applied is subjective. And thus the interpretations of the words are subject to one's own feelings. If in knowing that my intention implied contained no slight, how then does one continue to apply feelings of slight in the words?

Subsequently, I notice that you are picking out specific concepts, rather than looking at the words or taking note of the whole. Which further leads me to believe how the perception is subjective to the other's viewpoint. <= Also not explained well. Let me see if I can rephrase...

 

[Nixie]

I'm not going to worry about the fact you don't understand that your words are belittling toward a type. Perspective, don't worry, INFJs don't have any. Oh, there is no perceived slight to my words so please don't take any. :S

 

[Paladin-X]

I'm not going to worry about the fact you don't understand that your words are belittling toward a type. Perspective, don't worry, INFJs don't have any. Oh, there is no perceived slight to my words so please don't take any. :S

I concede and have conceded poor word choice in using 'would' instead of 'could'. Let me try a different approach. How did you select the given lines to bold? What about those sentences, specifically, is a slight?

And how is it that one is offended, regardless of my intention, if you believe the statement to be false?

If my line of questioning is frustrating in some way, again, it is unintentional. I am humbly trying to understand the connections and meanings that one interprets, that clearly I do not. If my words do not sound humble, how then am I to learn words of humility if one does not clearly and concretely explain it to me? And before one might ask or tell me to learn it for myself, can you tell me how?

 

[Paladin-X]

Another interesting observation that I've had....

Is a sociopath not a person as well? Why is being compared to a sociopath so bad? Sociopaths have done bad things, but not all. INTJs have done bad things, but not all. INFJs for that matter have done really bad things, but not all.

There is no doubt that there are fundamental differences is overal personality types that tend to cause friction but sweeping negative generalizations aren't very productive.

If the implication that being described as a Sociopath, or having sociopathic tendencies, is a negative one, is that not also a sweeping generalization? How does it differ from the facetious generalization I've made?

Even if I perceive INTJs to have sociopathic tendencies, why is it assumed that I mean that INTJs are bad people somehow? If someone else feels bad because of my point of view, does that mean my point of view is somehow wrong? Why does the point of view have to be right or wrong? If you want to talk about gray area, there are many others' arguments that appear far more rigid and black & white, than my own. I'm rather interested to know why that is?

 

[Nixie]

TBH, your last post is the biggest load of BS I have ever read.

Being a sociopath isn't bad huh. How about we find a nice sociopath for you to spend quality time with? Please. I'm done with this thread.

 

[Paladin-X]

TBH, your last post is the biggest load of BS I have ever heard.

Being a sociopath isn't bad huh. How about we find a nice sociopath for you to spend quality time with? Please. I'm done with this thread.

I respect your opinion and decision. Thank you for your input thus far. It has been helpful, though you might disagree.


Is someone else perhaps able to explain how if I say not all sociopaths are bad, that this equates to no sociopath is bad?

*** This is not aimed at anyone in particular, just life for me in general ***
This is why I have difficulties learning certain things in life. I have questions that no one cares to answer. Why try to make me feel bad because you might not know the answer? There is nothing wrong with saying, 'I don't know'. Why deflect answers, usually coupling it with anger and venom or outright dismissal? And claiming my ideas or questions to be stupid, idiotic, dumb, retarded, etc. Is it because my question is stupid or does it make you feel stupid for not having an answer to my question? Why judge me or my ideas/questions at all? And why assume I'm judging you? Therapists, psychiatrists, teachers, family, friends, and random people - why can't you answer the question? Any question? This is the most frustrating feeling in the world! To be held to someone else's judgement, without knowing or being told their laws! Why is it so hard for people to take down their guards or pride, to help another in need? No wonder so many commit suicide. No wonder that I often contemplate it. Who the fuck are you to condemn another? Worse still to condemn one who condemn's him/herself. Too much negative stigma attached to those with 'mental disorders'. The world needs to change. Starting now.
**** End rant. Yes triggered by Stormy1's response, but not directed at her. Directed at the many who have treated me poorly throughout my life.****

Not that it matters. My INTJ buddy would think my correlations are funny. But we have a similar dark sense of humour. However, he would say that we are all dumb for arguing something so insignificant. He really dislikes semantical arguments though.

 

[sassafras]

Another interesting observation that I've had....

Is a sociopath not a person as well? Why is being compared to a sociopath so bad? Sociopaths have done bad things, but not all. INTJs have done bad things, but not all. INFJs for that matter have done really bad things, but not all.

Yes, sociopaths are people too, however, keep in mind that sociopathy also refers to a personality disorder. A personality disorder is identified by a cluster of personality traits that impede the patient's normal function in society and therefore is considered abnormal. Since this particular online community is dedicated to the study, discovery and discussion of normal personality psychology wherein members predominately identify themselves by personality type, putting an equalizing sign between one personality type and personality disorder shows not only a gross misunderstanding of personality theory, but carries the implication that you're singling out one personality type (and therefore an entire group of people identifying with that type) as having deficiencies that classify as a DSM-IV defined psychological disorder when compared to all other types. Your mileage may vary on this, but most people would find this comparison highly inappropriate, not to mention very, very inaccurate.

Here's the wikipedia definition outlining the characteristics of sociopathy (antisocial personality disorder). Please tell me if you'd like to be indirectly diagnosed with/associated with/accused of any of these things:

ICD-10

The World Health Organization's International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems, tenth edition (ICD-10), defines a conceptually similar disorder to antisocial personality disorder called (F60.2) Dissocial personality disorder.[SUP][4][/SUP]

It is characterized by at least 3 of the following:

1. Callous unconcern for the feelings of others.
2. Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
3. Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them.
4. Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
5. Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
6. Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.

There may be persistent irritability as an associated feature.

The diagnosis includes what may be referred to as amoral, antisocial, psychopathic, and sociopathic personality (disorder).
The criteria specifically rule out conduct disorders.[SUP][5][/SUP] Dissocial personality disorder criteria differ from those for antisocial and sociopathic personality disorders.[SUP][6][/SUP]
It is a requirement of ICD-10 that a diagnosis of any specific personality disorder also satisfies a set of general personality disorder criteria.
DSM-IV

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth edition (DSM IV-TR), defines antisocial personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[SUP][1][/SUP]
A) There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:

1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
2. deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
3. impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead;
4. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;

B) The individual is at least age 18 years.C) There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.D) The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode.

As you know, mental health can be a very sensitive and serious issue for many, many people. Not only that, but society as a whole doesn't consider the above outlined traits as being desirable and that's why its sometimes employed as a pejorative. For the same reason as someone being accused of being a liar or a cheater or an idiot, people can take offense to being called 'sociopaths.'

Now, I think I've been very patient with answering your questions.Most people don't like arguing semantics and answering derailing questions of this kind as these are argument tactics that are also frequently employed by people who are trying to be passive-aggressive or those who cannot admit they're wrong, so, in a search for some kind of loop-hole, they end up melting the discussion down into a useless blob of information.

Not to mention (as any one who has ever spent time with a toddler asking 'why' all the time would tell you) it's also a very tiring way of carrying on a conversation.

Either way, it's possible that this is why people in the past may have misinterpreted your intentions. Something to think about.

Anyway, I think we've sidetracked this thread quite sufficiently, don't you think? Perhaps I'll let other posters take a turn at this wheel.

 

[Paladin-X]

I know the DSM very well. I can argue with you til the end of time its flaws, but that will be ineffective. I also thank you deeply for taking the time to construct a very well thought out reply. I thank you for offering me the perspective of others. I understand, but I do not. I agree with some and disagree with others. I will simply agree to disagree at this point in time.

One point of contention I will make though.

Now, I think I've been very patient with answering your questions.Most people don't like arguing semantics and answering derailing questions of this kind as these are argument tactics that are also frequently employed by people who are trying to be passive-aggressive or those who cannot admit they're wrong, so, in a search for some kind of loop-hole, they end up melting the discussion down into a useless blob of information.

My line of questioning is not to prove whether I am right or wrong. In my mind, I know the answer and could care less about convincing another. I was trying to understand another's point of view. I need not simply their conclusion, but how they reached their conclusion. Else I cannot see. I tried to mention repeatedly that I was not trying to be as you have suggested. I was not heard. I am never heard. Hence the louder I shout, because I know not another way. I am doomed only to be judged for my inadequacy to communicate my thoughts, which already takes 5 times longer than the average person to convey.

Though my anger is often directed outwards, I am mostly angry at myself for my failure to communicate. I have apparently failed, yet again. I will figure it out though. I had hoped perhaps my INFJ brethren would understand the importance of semantics, but that was a false assumption (the assumption being that other INFJs would feel as strongly as I do about semantics and connections). I am truly alone in this world I think. I do not know how to reach people. I do not want to fail others as I have failed myself. I will not give up.

NOTE: My depressive sounding words are not a request for pity, sympathy, empathy, compassion, judgement or dismissal. I communicate my thoughts plainly without filter in this regard. I have become disconnected yet again and know not how to reach the eloquence I had prior.

You are right though. I have derailed my own thread enough. Thank you again for your patience. I appreciate how difficult that can be at times.

 

[CindyLou]

I agree with the overall sentiment of if you've done something crappy you should very well feel guilty, but I think sometimes people feel guilty for things they really shouldn't. And the people who have done truly awful things seem to feel no guilt whatsoever. CindyLou, I remember, if you will forgive me bringing it up, how you once mentioned you felt guilty, or somehow "less", for your not-so-enjoyable pregnancy. Really, you should stop that, if you ask me!

So yes, there is reasonable guilt, and then there are guilty feelings that perhaps have been brainwashed into us. If that makes sense.

And I do agree with this: "Tell yourself that whatever you feel, you feel; whatever you think, you think. Since you can’t stop yourself thinking, or prevent emotions from arising in your mind, it makes no sense to be proud or ashamed of either. You didn’t cause them. Only your actions are directly under your control. They’re the only proper cause of pleasure or shame." For instance, I often feel like beating the daylights out of certain people, or harming them in some other way, but I don't actually do that. You just let those feelings go, and DO what you know is right/best/most likely to meet your goals and agree with your ethics.

Oh, I totally agree with you, at least the idea, however how does someone stop feeling something? I was finally diagnosed with OCD. My psych told me it was because I was trying NOT to feel guilty. So, I guess I'm supposed to feel guilt, even if I shouldn't be feeling it. Don't ask me, but she was right...even something as simple as biting my nails. I was driving home from work and I was feeling a little guilty for slacking off that day. I had spent too much time online and generally goofing around, being lazy. Those thoughts turned into more thoughts, and then poof...I bit all my nails off. The crazy thing is that I didn't even realize I was thinking all of that stuff, I just sorta think it and then once I bite they're gone. So, not really sure what to do with feelings, other than feel them. I'm not sure you can just stop. You'll end up with no nails, no hair, and checking outlets and locks a million times before you leave the house shouting "unplugged" at yourself...lolololololo!

 

[CindyLou]

Hmm, for whatever reason I thought the :S smiley meant he wasn't really being serious.

 

[CindyLou]

I know I've said ENTPs are narcs before. Lol.

 

[this is only temporary]

Oh, I totally agree with you, at least the idea, however how does someone stop feeling something? I was finally diagnosed with OCD. My psych told me it was because I was trying NOT to feel guilty. So, I guess I'm supposed to feel guilt, even if I shouldn't be feeling it. Don't ask me, but she was right...even something as simple as biting my nails. I was driving home from work and I was feeling a little guilty for slacking off that day. I had spent too much time online and generally goofing around, being lazy. Those thoughts turned into more thoughts, and then poof...I bit all my nails off. The crazy thing is that I didn't even realize I was thinking all of that stuff, I just sorta think it and then once I bite they're gone. So, not really sure what to do with feelings, other than feel them. I'm not sure you can just stop. You'll end up with no nails, no hair, and checking outlets and locks a million times before you leave the house shouting "unplugged" at yourself...lolololololo!

Ugh, that sounds like something I would do, even though I have not been diagnosed with OCD (nor do I think I really have it...). I'm so sorry -- I just hate to think of you sitting around berating yourself and really wish you could just stop. Maybe some of that "Fucitol" someone on here had as their avatar would help? J/K

 

[CindyLou]

Ugh, that sounds like something I would do, even though I have not been diagnosed with OCD (nor do I think I really have it...). I'm so sorry -- I just hate to think of you sitting around berating yourself and really wish you could just stop. Maybe some of that "Fucitol" someone on here had as their avatar would help? J/K

Lol, I'll have to try some of that Fucitol! The insurance industry loves me, but I'd love to not give a fuc.