Sex in the labour market

[say what]

[video=youtube;EwogDPh-Sow]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwogDPh-Sow[/video]

I'd be interested to know what you all think about this video.

 

[this is only temporary]

I thought this was going to be about people actually having sex in the labor market, so was somewhat disappointed! Also thought it was a good video, and he made some good points.

 

[Gaze]

I think his argument is valid and makes sense, but I also think he's giving the choice of professions too much credit for income inequality. There's still a huge problem with attitudes or perceptions society has towards men vs. women's abilities. For example, I am in education/humanities and yes, we make less than other professions. Another consequence is that human sciences is sometimes perceived as requiring less brain power than other areas and very often treated as a fluff degree, which implies almost anyone do it. No special smarts, talents or skills required. There's also the assumption that if your interest is in humanities, you can't possibly be very good at math or sciences. This leads to left brain/right brain stereotyping.

I went to a job interview, and the interviewer questioned why I wanted to change from education to accounting and she used this left brain/right brain description to question this change in direction. I guess if you are doing right brain things, you're not supposed to be able to good at left brain things. Additionally, we are always told math, sciences, and engineering requires far more brain power and technical proficiency than humanities. Those areas are also perceived to be a "guy" thing where men excel and are believed to supersede women in capacity in these areas. This ignores how much exposure boys have to these areas growing up, and how much attention is given to them especially by fathers who make it a priority to talk to them about technology and design.

Women are often taught indirectly to think this area is not exciting enough or too technical for them for them to 'get" compared to men, which is why only those supposedly few women who are really good get a lot of attention for being good in these fields, because it's seen as unusual for women to have the talent for those areas. This kind of thinking about ability in men and women is the real cause of income inequality. How many parents tell their daughters that they can be just as good a engineer as they can be a doctor? How many daughters here are told that with their smarts, they should pursue physics or mathematics instead of the usual, lawyer, doctor, teacher?

No, unless a young woman expresses some special ability in those areas, she's seen as naturally better in other areas. How many fathers take their young women to car shows and talk about the engineering of a car and design? And sometimes it's assumed many young women are not interested in these areas because they couldn't understand when in reality, it's simple as they have no interest. It's tough to be interested in an area when you're considered an anomaly, and if you're not around other young women who share that interest. And that's the other problem. Sometimes, the assumption is that women have no interest because they have no ability. When, if you're not exposed to particular areas as options, you come to believe that it's true that you have no ability to understand it well enough to make a career.

 

[this is only temporary]

Here is a video that is relevant to this thread but flipped around to reflect some of the attitudes men face:

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/01/11/hln-intv-proud-dad-viral-pic-backlash.hln.html

It's sort of like that but in reverse for women in education and work.

 

[say what]

I thought this was going to be about people actually having sex in the labor market, so was somewhat disappointed! Also thought it was a good video, and he made some good points.

I almost changed the title because I thought it implied this...but then i was like "this is the perfect way to get people to check it out! muahaha"

Here is a video that is relevant to this thread but flipped around to reflect some of the attitudes men face:

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/01/11/hln-intv-proud-dad-viral-pic-backlash.hln.html

It's sort of like that but in reverse for women in education and work.

This is an awesome video! I think it hits the nail on the head! While 'we' make 'our' choices, these choices are ultimately determined by society- which we have no control over. Just because women want to plan for children, take maternity time, and/or need a bit of flexibility for caregiving, shouldn't mean that they are limited in their options for careers- same goes for men! They should also have these same options! I think the video provides great logic and fact for the argument that this is a myth, but I also think that it completely disregards the fact that the options available to women (and men) are determined by gender roles.

I think his argument is valid and makes sense, but I also think he's giving the choice of professions too much credit for income inequality. There's still a huge problem with attitudes or perceptions society has towards men vs. women's abilities. For example, I am in education/humanities and yes, we make less than other professions. Another consequence is that human sciences is sometimes perceived as requiring less brain power than other areas and very often treated as a fluff degree, which implies almost anyone do it. No special smarts, talents or skills required. There's also the assumption that if your interest is in humanities, you can't possibly be very good at math or sciences. This leads to left brain/right brain stereotyping.

I went to a job interview, and the interviewer questioned why I wanted to change from education to accounting and she used this left brain/right brain description to question this change in direction. I guess if you are doing right brain things, you're not supposed to be able to good at left brain things. Additionally, we are always told math, sciences, and engineering requires far more brain power and technical proficiency than humanities. Those areas are also perceived to be a "guy" thing where men excel and are believed to supersede women in capacity in these areas. This ignores how much exposure boys have to these areas growing up, and how much attention is given to them especially by fathers who make it a priority to talk to them about technology and design.

Women are often taught indirectly to think this area is not exciting enough or too technical for them for them to 'get" compared to men, which is why only those supposedly few women who are really good get a lot of attention for being good in these fields, because it's seen as unusual for women to have the talent for those areas. This kind of thinking about ability in men and women is the real cause of income inequality. How many parents tell their daughters that they can be just as good a engineer as they can be a doctor? How many daughters here are told that with their smarts, they should pursue physics or mathematics instead of the usual, lawyer, doctor, teacher?

No, unless a young woman expresses some special ability in those areas, she's seen as naturally better in other areas. How many fathers take their young women to car shows and talk about the engineering of a car and design? And sometimes it's assumed many young women are not interested in these areas because they couldn't understand when in reality, it's simple as they have no interest. It's tough to be interested in an area when you're considered an anomaly, and if you're not around other young women who share that interest. And that's the other problem. Sometimes, the assumption is that women have no interest because they have no ability. When, if you're not exposed to particular areas as options, you come to believe that it's true that you have no ability to understand it well enough to make a career.

So many good points! This is so true! We (as a society and parents) determine the options men and women have available to them. It would be interesting to see how many men/women go for jobs and are turned away because of gender role stereotypes (e.g., "oh, she'll get want to have babies in a year and then will go on leave")

 

[Elis]

I don't have any statistics at hand, but from my knowledge there have been several studies where there has been a notable difference in wage, with gender being the only separating factor(same field, experience, qualifications, etc.).

I think the video raises a valid point regarding social structure etc., but I don't buy the 2% estimate.

 

[Gaze]

I don't have any statistics at hand, but from my knowledge there have been several studies where there has been a notable difference in wage, with gender being the only separating factor(same field, experience, qualifications, etc.).

I think the video raises a valid point regarding social structure etc., but I don't buy the 2% estimate.

Reminds me of a research study I read about where they submitted two resumes with the same background, experiences, etc. but changed the names only, one male and one female. Those who reviewed the resume said the woman was under qualified and the man was over qualified.

 

[say what]

I don't have any statistics at hand, but from my knowledge there have been several studies where there has been a notable difference in wage, with gender being the only separating factor(same field, experience, qualifications, etc.).

I think the video raises a valid point regarding social structure etc., but I don't buy the 2% estimate.

I have to agree. I just saw this this morning

http://www.msnbc.com/all/77-cents-the-dollar-masters-less



I would like to see what data he's using and how he's coming to the 2%.

 

[the]

Human Capital: the word used to describe people as a thing. So in other words a slave. But HR can't use the slave word so H.C. it is.

@framed : I went to a job interview, and the interviewer questioned why I wanted to change from education to accounting and she used this left brain/right brain description to question this change in direction. I guess if you are doing right brain things, you're not supposed to be able to good at left brain things.

How did you answer this question?


This is a pretty rational and reasonable explanation of what is going on with the gender wage gap. I personally don't see it as a big problem. I think it is more a problem that gender is what divides people job opportunities. For instance Women to HR, nursing, service intensive jobs like waitressing, etc and Men to economics, doctors, construction workers, labor intensive jobs.

I dont know how we can 100% get around the fact that people in power (usually men) will try to exploit their workers for sex, promising money, raises, promotions (usually directed towards women if the man is the one in power, and is also the instance most reported). I also don't know how to get around the privilege of being attractive in the workplace, or that it needs to be. These are just a couple ideas off the top of my head that contribute to inequality in the workplace.

 

[say what]

This is a pretty rational and reasonable explanation of what is going on with the gender wage gap. I personally don't see it as a big problem. I think it is more a problem that gender is what divides people job opportunities. [/COLOR]

I agree. The video suggests that we individually make the choices, but the reality is that our available opportunities is often dependent on our gender.

If I want children, but I also know I'll have to take care of my mom when she gets older, there's a high likelihood that I'll pick a career that'll have flexibility, health care, security, etc. even though it might not be the job that I really want.

 

[Gaze]

Human Capital: the word used to describe people as a thing. So in other words a slave. But HR can't use the slave word so H.C. it is.

[/COLOR]

How did you answer this question?

I am not sure whether it was the best response, but I think I said something such as "I wanted to see what other opportunities were available in other areas". It was an older female interviewer, and I wonder whether she would have asked a male with my background the same question. From that perspective, it was pretty sexist to even mention right brain/left brain difference. I doubt that conversation would have come up with a male candidate.

Edit: I've also gone into other interviews where it was implied that since I was already in education in a non-technical area, that I was being a little naive in assuming that I would be capable of handling a job with more technical requirements.

 

[the]

I am not sure whether it was the best response, but I think I said something such as "I wanted to see what other opportunities were available in other areas". It was an older female interviewer, and I wonder whether she would have asked a male with my background the same question. From that perspective, it was pretty sexist to even mention right brain/left brain difference. I doubt that conversation would have come up with a male candidate.

What is it in education that you do that makes it so "Right Brained"? If you teach accounting then my opinion of your interviewer is that she's an idiot. But if your a Vice Chancellor then I would question the change if it was a lower level accounting job. Other possibilities on my mind is that this was supposed to be an easy question towards the beginning to put you at ease or maybe she just had an interview schedule and this is what her superiors gave her.

 

[Gaze]

What is it in education that you do that makes it so "Right Brained"? If you teach accounting then my opinion of your interviewer is that she's an idiot. But if your a Vice Chancellor then I would question the change if it was a lower level accounting job. Other possibilities on my mind is that this was supposed to be an easy question towards the beginning to put you at ease or maybe she just had an interview schedule and this is what her superiors gave her.

Yeah, maybe.

 

[the]

I agree. The video suggests that we individually make the choices, but the reality is that our available opportunities is often dependent on our gender.

If I want children, but I also know I'll have to take care of my mom when she gets older, there's a high likelihood that I'll pick a career that'll have flexibility, health care, security, etc. even though it might not be the job that I really want.

Exactly, I think even men what this kind of job but it probably gets filled up with women due to societies expectation that women will have to fill the roles you mentioned. This is made into an easy decision by hiring managers so that they can meet their quotas of having enough women (or perhaps other minorities in similar situations) on the payroll. Which leaves men at the tedious 8-4:30 factory job doing something mind numbing working "out of duty".

No, unless a young woman expresses some special ability in those areas, she's seen as naturally better in other areas. How many fathers take their young women to car shows and talk about the engineering of a car and design? And sometimes it's assumed many young women are not interested in these areas because they couldn't understand when in reality, it's simple as they have no interest. It's tough to be interested in an area when you're considered an anomaly, and if you're not around other young women who share that interest. And that's the other problem. Sometimes, the assumption is that women have no interest because they have no ability. When, if you're not exposed to particular areas as options, you come to believe that it's true that you have no ability to understand it well enough to make a career.

I find that most things are relatively easy to understand if someone would just explain it. I was disinterested in cars and such due to having no bottom level knowledge on how a car worked or why it was a good car besides the fact that the engine sticks out of the hood or racing stripes. I've found the more I know about it, the more interested I become. This has been my experience for a lot of things in life. Someone says: "Isnt that a great painting?" I think in my head: "why? its just splotches or it doesnt look like the subject matter" but if I knew specifically what made it a great painting then I might appreciate it.

 

[Gaze]

Maybe, one thing to take away from it, is that we need to consider careers in other areas outside of traditional female dominated professions. Maybe, this will help to equalize pay in the end. As much as it's tough to deal with the discrimination, it's rarely helpful or beneficial to think about it too much. I realized in the end, I just needed to re-educate myself in areas that will permit more options and better wages in the future. Best thing is to build your knowledge, skills, and expertise. And also, whatever you do, get certified!

 

[this is only temporary]

Maybe, one thing to take away from it, is that we need to consider careers in other areas outside of traditional female dominated professions. Maybe, this will help to equalize pay in the end. As much as it's tough to deal with the discrimination, it's rarely helpful or beneficial to think about it too much. I realized in the end, I just needed to re-educate myself in areas that will permit more options and better wages in the future. Best thing is to build your knowledge, skills, and expertise. And also, whatever you do, get certified!

Yes, and another mistake women make is assuming/hoping/wishing/maybe even being told that somebody else is going to take care of them, which can encourage them to pick careers that may have lower compensation. Which, for the lucky ones, is no problem, but that is not possible for everyone, and even if you do have someone taking care of you, things can change, recessions happen, people become disabled maybe, and you may find yourself having to take care of yourself, your husband, and your children. Ask some of the families impacted by the recession. If you can't, or won't, this can lead to all kinds of heartbreak, poor relationships, divorces, and general insecurity.

If you are just starting out, start with the assumption you are going to have to take care of yourself, look at numbers and cold hard facts without over idealizing things, and place a high value on your time and talents. And learn to negotiate. Men can do these things, some women can, everyone should. You will be less likely to find yourself in a bad situation down the road.

P.S. and with this attitude, you'll find yourself surrounded by less sexist, overall better people who are less likely to treat you badly, and THAT is worth any amount of money you could be making.

 

[say what]

Yes, and another mistake women make is assuming/hoping/wishing/maybe even being told that somebody else is going to take care of them, which can encourage them to pick careers that may have lower compensation. Which, for the lucky ones, is no problem, but that is not possible for everyone, and even if you do have someone taking care of you, things can change, recessions happen, people become disabled maybe, and you may find yourself having to take care of yourself, your husband, and your children. Ask some of the families impacted by the recession. If you can't, or won't, this can lead to all kinds of heartbreak, poor relationships, divorces, and general insecurity.

If you are just starting out, start with the assumption you are going to have to take care of yourself, look at numbers and cold hard facts without over idealizing things, and place a high value on your time and talents. And learn to negotiate. Men can do these things, some women can, everyone should. You will be less likely to find yourself in a bad situation down the road.

P.S. and with this attitude, you'll find yourself surrounded by less sexist, overall better people who are less likely to treat you badly, and THAT is worth any amount of money you could be making.

Completely agree! Not only do we need to education women that they can do whatever they want, we need to educate men that they can too- and also that women have that same liberty. I've met a few men that considered women to be wives and mothers, and that's all. It surprises me that this view still exists in people my age. I've experienced it just in general, being made to feel like I was wrong for pursuing education and a career over having children and a family - I'm still young, so I don't technically see myself having made that choice or sacrificed anything! I had a female doctor tell me that my "thesis won't take care of you when you're older", implying that I should go out and meet someone "you never know when you're going to meet the one" and get pregnant. I simply told her my thesis will be paying for my kids college and my husband's and I retirement.

I can imagine that if a woman experiences that from other women outside the context of employment, it's happens far too regularly inside employment. As a woman, I don't ever think that my gender would impact my options and professional networks- but the more I become situated in a predominantly male work place, the more I realize that it happens and I don't even notice...which makes me sad.

 

[this is only temporary]

Completely agree! Not only do we need to education women that they can do whatever they want, we need to educate men that they can too- and also that women have that same liberty. I've met a few men that considered women to be wives and mothers, and that's all. It surprises me that this view still exists in people my age. I've experienced it just in general, being made to feel like I was wrong for pursuing education and a career over having children and a family - I'm still young, so I don't technically see myself having made that choice or sacrificed anything! I had a female doctor tell me that my "thesis won't take care of you when you're older", implying that I should go out and meet someone "you never know when you're going to meet the one" and get pregnant. I simply told her my thesis will be paying for my kids college and my husband's and I retirement.

I can imagine that if a woman experiences that from other women outside the context of employment, it's happens far too regularly inside employment. As a woman, I don't ever think that my gender would impact my options and professional networks- but the more I become situated in a predominantly male work place, the more I realize that it happens and I don't even notice...which makes me sad.

Wow -- she said that to you? About your thesis? Sheese.

All I can say is I am very, very glad I pursued my education and that I can be with my husband without treating him like some sort of retirement plan. Good for you for responding the way you did. And for the love of God don't get pregnant as some sort of retirement plan either. (but I'm sure you won't) Hoping the reasons not to do these things are self-explanatory. I hope and believe that people's mindsets are changing regarding gender roles and work-life balance and flexibility and all that. I've been extremely fortunate in that regard, but I know not everyone has been.

I don't know if one's gender really, truly, permanently affects your professional networks -- some people get it, some people don't, that's all. You just run into people who just will be like that sometimes -- men and women. I'm certain if you conduct yourself professionally and ethically people will respect that and admire you, even if you have to put up with the occasional idiocy.